Seattle's in. Now let's focus on Quebec... and blowing up this insane East-West alignment.

KevFu

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I've often enjoyed the idea of going North-South with the conferences instead of East-West, something like this:

You sure the league can handle a return of the mighty Southleast Division?

North/South would be bad for business.... well, it'd be great for business in the North, but bad for business in the South. Which is really the opposite of what we'd want to encourage. After about 10 years, the revenue gap would be so big, people would just want to contract the entire South.
 

oknazevad

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Dec 12, 2018
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Divisions exist to reduce the number of games played in other time zones. That's specifically the reason that Detroit demanded going into the Eastern Conference, leading to the more radical realignment we got instead of the rather easy Winnipeg-for-Nashville swap that would have kept the previous alignment.

Time zones run east-west, not north-south. North and south conferences do absolutely nothing to deal with the time zone issue. That lack of usefulness is what makes it a total a non-starter.
 
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No Fun Shogun

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The only possible north/south configuration that I could forseeably imagine would be if the NHL adopted a Canadian division (if they got an eighth team) and then the three other divisions would be east to west American teams.

But that is a massive stretch and I wouldn't expect it to remotely get traction.
 
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oknazevad

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Dec 12, 2018
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The only possible north/south configuration that I could forseeably imagine would be if the NHL adopted a Canadian division (if they got an eighth team) and then the three other divisions would be east to west American teams.

But that is a massive stretch and I wouldn't expect it to remotely get traction.

And even then, it puts teams in the same division across four time zones. That simply put will not fly.
 

MNNumbers

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As a try........
Allow me the fantasy of Florida moving to Quebec.....
Then.....
1 Division = All 8 Canadian teams
Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, NYR, NYI, NJD, Car, Was, Tampa
Central: Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, Nashville, Columbus, Pitts, Phil, Dallas
Pacific: St Louis, Colorado, Ariz, LV, Ana, LAKings, SJS, Seattle

And, if not for the presence of St Louis there, this could actually work. But to put St Louis or Dallas or anyone from the Central Time Zone into such a division will be a FAIL. You would need Utah to make this work.

And, even then, I don't think the NHL wants an all-Canada division. I think they would like everyone to forget about the International border.
 

CTHabsfan

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As a try........
Allow me the fantasy of Florida moving to Quebec.....
Then.....
1 Division = All 8 Canadian teams
Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, NYR, NYI, NJD, Car, Was, Tampa
Central: Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, Nashville, Columbus, Pitts, Phil, Dallas
Pacific: St Louis, Colorado, Ariz, LV, Ana, LAKings, SJS, Seattle

And, if not for the presence of St Louis there, this could actually work. But to put St Louis or Dallas or anyone from the Central Time Zone into such a division will be a FAIL. You would need Utah to make this work.

And, even then, I don't think the NHL wants an all-Canada division. I think they would like everyone to forget about the International border.

"if not for the presence of St Louis there, this could actually work". No, it also doesn't work because after finally reducing Vancouver's travel, you're removing them from a division with Seattle.
 

MNNumbers

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"if not for the presence of St Louis there, this could actually work". No, it also doesn't work because after finally reducing Vancouver's travel, you're removing them from a division with Seattle.

I was not suggesting it was a good idea. I'm not in favor. I was merely commenting on the time zone factor
 

coolboarder

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As a try........
Allow me the fantasy of Florida moving to Quebec.....
Then.....
1 Division = All 8 Canadian teams
Atlantic: Boston, Buffalo, NYR, NYI, NJD, Car, Was, Tampa
Central: Detroit, Chicago, Minnesota, Nashville, Columbus, Pitts, Phil, Dallas
Pacific: St Louis, Colorado, Ariz, LV, Ana, LAKings, SJS, Seattle

And, if not for the presence of St Louis there, this could actually work. But to put St Louis or Dallas or anyone from the Central Time Zone into such a division will be a FAIL. You would need Utah to make this work.

And, even then, I don't think the NHL wants an all-Canada division. I think they would like everyone to forget about the International border.
Vote no for the all-Canadian division. I hated that concept. It is overrated nowadays. If it were up to me, I would put each Canadian in each division where there won't be all-American division like Metropolitan Division.

I would pair Toronto/Buffalo and Ottawa/ Montreal/Boston in two different Eastern conference divisions and work our way south so that each division is not close compact and Western Conference teams had to travel from North to South a whole lot when compared to the Eastern Conference.

Atlantic Division: Toronto,, Buffalo, NY Rangers, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay
Metropolitan Division: Detroit, Columbus, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, NY Islanders, Philadelphia, Washington

This will bring a balanced travel from North and South when considering that Montreal is further northernmost team in the Eastern Conference. It brings balance plus Detroit is the further westernmost team in the Eastern conference and still very compact but Atlantic division that I propose would be compact distance between teams like Toronto/Buffalo, NY Rangers and New Jersey but still would have to travel further south, bringing some balance and distance and is fair for both division in the Eastern Conference if you want Florida to feel that it's very fair and doesn't have to travel that far North. If you disagree with me and have a better realignment proposal, I would like you to come up with the rule where there must be at least one team in each division that is from Canada. And go.

It is a dream of mine to see All-Canadian, Canadian conference final at least once in my lifetime. I realize that Wild Card system makes it possible but the odd of having this happening is very, very, very low and once they have new schedule matrix and got rid of the Wild Card system once Seattle joins in 3 years then say good bye to that dream.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Vote no for the all-Canadian division. I hated that concept. It is overrated nowadays. If it were up to me, I would put each Canadian in each division where there won't be all-American division like Metropolitan Division.

I would pair Toronto/Buffalo and Ottawa/ Montreal/Boston in two different Eastern conference divisions and work our way south so that each division is not close compact and Western Conference teams had to travel from North to South a whole lot when compared to the Eastern Conference.

Atlantic Division: Toronto,, Buffalo, NY Rangers, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay
Metropolitan Division: Detroit, Columbus, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, NY Islanders, Philadelphia, Washington

This will bring a balanced travel from North and South when considering that Montreal is further northernmost team in the Eastern Conference. It brings balance plus Detroit is the further westernmost team in the Eastern conference and still very compact but Atlantic division that I propose would be compact distance between teams like Toronto/Buffalo, NY Rangers and New Jersey but still would have to travel further south, bringing some balance and distance and is fair for both division in the Eastern Conference if you want Florida to feel that it's very fair and doesn't have to travel that far North. If you disagree with me and have a better realignment proposal, I would like you to come up with the rule where there must be at least one team in each division that is from Canada. And go.

It is a dream of mine to see All-Canadian, Canadian conference final at least once in my lifetime. I realize that Wild Card system makes it possible but the odd of having this happening is very, very, very low and once they have new schedule matrix and got rid of the Wild Card system once Seattle joins in 3 years then say good bye to that dream.
there won't be the above proposal.
 

voyageur

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Jul 10, 2011
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I'll get right to the point. Admitting Seattle to the NHL was a smart move by NHL owners. But keeping Quebec out is equally insane. It's insane because the stated premise behind keeping Quebec out, specifically, rigid adherence to a silly East-West "tradition" that dates all the way back to the early '80s (or, you could even argue, the early '90's) is even more insane.

Unlike the NFL, CFL and for all intents and purposes the NBA and MLB, the NHL is a bi-national league. 30 or 32 teams might sound like a nice, even number, and it certainly works for other leagues. But it's meaningless in hockey. From a business standpoint, it would make much more sense to try and come up with nice, even number of teams in each country rather than focus on what that might add up to in terms of a combined total in the league.

Once you get your head around the concept of blowing up the ridiculous albatross that is the NHL's current East-West format, then 25 U.S. teams, particularly with the 25th franchise in Seattle, actually makes alot of sense because as you will see below, it's no more difficult to group 25 U.S. teams into five divisions of five compared to trying to group the existing 24 into two groups of twelve, three groups of eight, four groups of six or six groups of four.

But of course, the arithmetic of having five divisions doesn't work too well... unless you have them all in one Conference, which might seem bizarre at first... until you realize it actually makes alot of business sense with no meaningful drawbacks that are not either more than offset by the benefits or easily mitigated.

And of course, the mathematics of a seven-team Canadian Hockey Conference do no work too well at all. So, to make the eminently reasonable alignment of 25 U.S. teams into five U.S. divisions in a single U.S. conference work, you have to add a team in Eastern Canada.

But before we get back to reviving that dormant franchise application from Quebec, I'll quickly rattle off the five division back-of-the-napkin U.S. alignment I came up with. Not that it took all that much more thinking than aligning a Canadian Conference...

American Hockey Conference

AHC East
Boston
Buffalo
New Jersey
NY Islanders
NY Rangers

AHC North
Columbus
Detroit
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Washington

AHC South
Carolina
Dallas
Florida
Nashville
Tampa Bay

AHC Central
Arizona
Chicago
Colorado
Minnesota
St. Louis

AHC West
Anaheim
Los Angeles
San Jose
Seattle
Vegas

And, to state the obvious:

Canadian Hockey Conference

CHC East

Montreal
Ottawa
Quebec
Toronto

CHC West
Calgary
Edmonton
Vancouver
Winnipeg

The basic scheduling formulas are quite obvious:

AHC Scheduling Formula (my personal preference):
6 intradivisional games x 4 opponents
2 interdivisional/interconference games x 28 opponents
= 80 games

Alternative AHC Scheduling Formula:
5 intradivisional games x 4 opponents
3 interdivisional-intraconference x 4 opponents (specifically, those teams that finsihed in same position in Division standings the previous season)
2 interdivisional/interconference games x 24 opponents
= 80 games

CHC Scheduling Formula:
6 intradivisional games x 3 opponents
3 interdivisional-intraconference games x 4 opponents
2 interconference games x 25 opponents
= 80 games

To which would be added Games 81 & 82, which presumably would scheduled at the discretion of the League between teams that would otherwise only play twice in order to maintain rivalries such as Bruins-Canadiens, etc.

As for the playoff format, particularly in the AHC it would make sense to emphasize Divisional matchups as much as possible so as to minimize travel obligations in the first round.

CHC Playoff Qualifcation (four teams):
- Division champions qualify plus two Wild Cards.

AHC Playoff Qualifcation (twelve teams):
- Division champions & runners-up qualify plus two Wild Cards.

Emphasizing Divisonal play while keeping the playoff format reasonably fair is not really feasible when you're trying to pair off only four teams as in the proposed CHC, but of course one could consider mitigating the issue by implementing the 2-3-2 format for the early interdivisional series that will inevitably occur...

CHC Playoff Format, Round 1 (suggested name: CHC Conference Series) & Round 2 (suggested name: CHC Championship Series):
- Division champion with most points plays second Wild Card, other Division champion plays first Wild Card;
- CHC Conference Series winners contest CHC Championship Series, winner declared CHC champions & awarded new CHC Championship Trophy (suggested name: Wayne Gretzky Trophy).

Emphasizing Divisional play in the first round of the AHC play makes the formula for determining matchups a bit more complicated, but not inarticulately so...

AHC Playoff Format, Round 1 (suggested name: AHC Division Series):
- If the Wild Cards are from different Divisions they always play the champions of their own Divisions;
- If the Wild Cards are from the same Division then the second Wild Card plays the champions of their own Division with the first Wild Card playing their own Division runner-up if that team has the best runner-up record in the AHC, otherwise the first Wild Card plays the champion of the Division containing the best runner-up record in the AHC and the same Division's runner-up plays the team with the best runner-up record;
- Runners-up of Divisions with no Wild Card qualifers play champions of own Division unless they have the best runner-up record in AHC, in which case should the two Wild Cards be in different divisions then from among the runners-up of the Divisions with Wild Cards the team with the best runner-up record in AHC plays the runner-up with the better record and the same Division's champion plays the runner-up with the worse record;
- If the team with the best runner-up record in AHC is in a Division with one Wild Card, it plays the runner-up of the other Division containing a Wild Card;

The format ensures that the Division champions and the best runner-up are always the teams that have home ice advantage in the AHC Division Series while also ensuring that the top two teams in the AHC will never meet in the first round, even if they are Division rivals and the only two teams in their Division to make the playoffs. Finally, it ensures that at least four of the six Division Series are intradivisional matchups.

For Round Two, all five Divisions would usually be represented, barring unusual circumstances including multiple upsets. In any case, at least four Divisions would always be represented, so attempting to emphasize Divisional play in the second round makes little sense.

AHC Playoff Format, Round 2 (suggested name: AHC Conference Series):
- AHC Division Series winners are matched up 1 vs 6, 2 vs 5, 3 vs 4 according to regular season record and without regard to Division.

Now of course, that leaves a CHC Champion and three teams from the AHC to contest the third round. So, in order to crown a undisputed AHC champion at the conclusion of the third round and so that the focus of the final round can be squarely on the Stanley Cup, it is necessary for the top two of the three AHC third round teams to be the teams playing for the AHC Championship...

Playoff Format, Rounds 3 & 4:
- Top two AHC Conference Series winners contest the AHC Championship Series, winners declared AHC champions & awarded Prince of Wales Trophy;
- Remaining AHC Conference Series winner ineligible to win AHC Championship, instead plays CHC champion in Stanley Cup Semi-Final, winners awarded Clarence Campbell Bowl;
- Winners of AHC Championship Series and Stanley Cup Semi-Final play in Stanley Cup Final. The AHC champions remain recognized as such even if they lose to another AHC team in the Cup Final.

Benefits compared to current alignment:
- On the whole, the Divisions are far more "compact" geographically compared to the current Divisions;
- All seven Divisions have simple geographically-oriented names modeled on the overwhelmingly popular names used in the NFL, CFL and MLB;
- CHC Divisions are essentially modeled on CFL Divisions, while in all five AHC Divisions, the majority of the markets (or at least, in the case of Columbus & Carolina, their respective states or in the case of San Jose, the immediately-surrounding region) also have at least one team in a Division with the same name (i.e. Central/East/North/South/West) in the NFL and/or MLB;
- Whereas only half of the current Divisions are in a single time zone, four of these seven Divisions (including three of five AHC Divisions) are in a single time zone, while the AHC South spans only two time zones for the entire season and the AHC Central spans only two time zones for most of the regular season;
- Excluding possible "rivalry games" most U.S. ETZ teams would play the same number of regular season games outside their time zone as they do now - the only exceptions are ETZ teams in AHC South whose markets are linked geographically and culturally to Dallas & Nashville in the CTZ;
- Far fewer regular season games in the PTZ for U.S. CTZ teams, espcially Dallas and Nashville who would also have far fewer games in MTZ, and also to only a slightly lesser extent Chicago, Minnesota and St. Louis.
- The overwhelming majority of existing rivalries are maintained, in part due to the provision for extra "rivalry games" to help maintain traditional rivalries such as Boston-Montreal and forge new ones like Vancouver-Seattle;
- Three all-Canadian playoff series, the presentation of a unique Canadian Conference Championship trophy and a guaranteed Canadian team in third round will guarantee consistently strong playoff TV ratings in Canada;
- A guaranteed U.S. team in Final ensures zero chance of the U.S. TV ratings catastrophe that would result from an all-Canadian Final while a unique U.S. Conference Championship would provide at least a modest boost in the U.S.;
- The playoff format provides BOTH a legitimate U.S. Conference Champion AND the possibility of ANY two U.S. teams (including Division rivals) meeting in the Stanley Cup Final (imagine, for example, the Penguins and Capitals playing for the Cup);
- Opportunity to retire the existing, lame Conference logos and design new Conference logos that would presumably incorporate the unique national character of each Conference (I am not a graphics artist, so for now we will just have to use our imagination to think of, say, a primarily red CHC logo with two red maple leaves representing East and West and, say, a primarily blue AHC logo with five stars, perhaps even arranged in a pattern representing North, South, East, Central and West);
- $1.3 billion in new expansion fees instead of $650 million - fans might not care about that, but the folks who ultimately make these sort of decisions do.

Acknowledged issues with this alignment:
- Slight mathematical advantage for Canadian teams in terms of playoff qualification percentages (50% vs. 48% for U.S. teams), but Canadian TV revenues coupled with the preclusion of an all-Canadian Stanley Cup Final easily justifies this modest advantage;
- As previously indicated, a legitimate American Hockey Conference Championship cannot be both reasonably defined and awarded at the appropriate stage in the playoffs (i.e. awarded at the conclusion of the penultimate round regardless of what happens in the Stanley Cup Semi-Final) UNLESS the playoff format ensures the top two of the three remaining third round AHC teams are always the teams playing for that Conference Championship, which in turn means the lowest surviving AHC third round team always has to be the one that forgoes an opportunity to play for its own Conference Championship and instead plays the CHC champion in the Stanley Cup Semi-Final. Of course, that means an AHC team could win the Stanley Cup without winning its Conference title, but that's not without precedent in North American sports - NCAA teams don't need to win their conferences to play for national championships. The other dilemma is determining whether the third AHC seed ought to be able to "earn" home ice advantage based on its record against the CHC champion (which would be perceived to be "unfairly" deny that advantage to the second AHC seed) or, alternatively guaranteeing the CHC champion home ice advantage for the Stanley Cup Semi-Final even when its record is the worst of the four third round teams. Again, Canadian TV revenues plus the preclusion of an all-Canadian Stanley Cup Final easily justifies all of this - up to and including a guarantee of home ice advantage in the Stanley Cup Semi-Final for the CHC champion.
- Not possible for the top two AHC teams to play in the Final, as they would be kept apart for the Division and Conference Series but invariably compelled to meet in the AHC Championship Series (assuming they both won their Division and Conference Series) under this format. Stanley Cup Final meetings any other two AHC seeds up to first and third could theoretically happen. Nevertheless, the overall possibility of any two U.S. teams meeting in the Final offsets this issue;
- "Breakup" of a few existing rivalries such as Boston-Montreal and Toronto-Detroit, but the provision for extra "rivalry games" would mitigate this issue and allow these rivalries to be maintained. If two extra "rivalry games" were deemed to be insufficient mitigation, the schedule could be expanded back to 84 games like it was in the early 1990's;
- CHC West spans three time zones with no CTZ Division rivals for Winnipeg & no PTZ rivals for Vancouver, but the benefits of having an all-Western Canadian Division far outweigh this issue;
- Not geographically and mathematically feasible to place the five U.S. CTZ teams in their own Division, but this issue is easily offset by the reduction of games these teams will have to play in the PTZ and the placement of Dallas and Nashville with culturally-linked Carolina, Florida and Tampa Bay;
- Possible overall increase in number and/or span of cross-time zone playoff series in the early playoff rounds, however the cumulative effect would be quite limited compared to the current system. The proposed format, like the current system, effectively guarantees four intradivisional first round matchups across the league, the main difference is that those four guaranteed intradivisional series are all AHC Division Series. So AHC playoff teams would actually be more likely to stay in their (more compact) Division for the first round compared to the current format. On balance, the effect of any net increase in playoff travel would be offset by the increased proportion of single time zone Divisions and reduction in cross-time zone games in the regular season;
- Possibility of an underqualified AHC runner-up of a weak Division making the playoffs - a "necessary evil" as without guaranteeing playoff berths to Division runners-up, four intradivisional AHC Divison Series could not be guaranteed. Also, there would be increased focus and clarity with respect to the Wild Card playoff race by keeping the number of Wild Card berths per Conference limited to two.
- Two more games in Western Canada for Eastern Canadian teams (and vice-versa) compared to the current format - mitigated by the large Leafs and Habs fanbases in Western Canada who would welcome these extra games;
- Arizona has to move to the Central - but that's where they're headed already and besides, Arizona is in the MTZ for most of the regular season.

Non-issues with this format:
- "Breakup" of the alleged East vs. West "tradition" - this is not a "tradition" worth caring about let alone keeping, especially in hockey.
- There's still plenty of time to get Quebec back in the League by 2020, one year prior to Seattle joining and thus avoiding the complications arising from stocking two expansion rosters at the same time.

Credit for originality. But you will never see a drastic shift. Especially one that splits the U.S and Canada, as some American teams profit from Canadian support.

I wouldn't mind seeing the 4 conference set up. Build rivalries. Fans want to see Pittsburgh-Washington, Rangers-Devils, Toronto/Montreal-Boston, To-Buffalo/Detroit. Calgary-Edmonton. Battles of California. Vancouver-Seattle will be a beaut. Chicago-St. Louis. Some rivalries like Nashville-Winnipeg are just burgeoning.
But the rivalries make the game more intense.

The wild card makes the East-West divide, if it were modified, or nullified, you could take the East-West out. I think the execs would love a Boston/Toronto-NewYork Stanley Cup. I would not mind a Winnipeg-Calgary/San Jose Stanley Cup.
 

MNNumbers

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Vote no for the all-Canadian division. I hated that concept. It is overrated nowadays. If it were up to me, I would put each Canadian in each division where there won't be all-American division like Metropolitan Division.

I would pair Toronto/Buffalo and Ottawa/ Montreal/Boston in two different Eastern conference divisions and work our way south so that each division is not close compact and Western Conference teams had to travel from North to South a whole lot when compared to the Eastern Conference.

Atlantic Division: Toronto,, Buffalo, NY Rangers, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Florida, Tampa Bay
Metropolitan Division: Detroit, Columbus, Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, NY Islanders, Philadelphia, Washington

This will bring a balanced travel from North and South when considering that Montreal is further northernmost team in the Eastern Conference. It brings balance plus Detroit is the further westernmost team in the Eastern conference and still very compact but Atlantic division that I propose would be compact distance between teams like Toronto/Buffalo, NY Rangers and New Jersey but still would have to travel further south, bringing some balance and distance and is fair for both division in the Eastern Conference if you want Florida to feel that it's very fair and doesn't have to travel that far North. If you disagree with me and have a better realignment proposal, I would like you to come up with the rule where there must be at least one team in each division that is from Canada. And go.

It is a dream of mine to see All-Canadian, Canadian conference final at least once in my lifetime. I realize that Wild Card system makes it possible but the odd of having this happening is very, very, very low and once they have new schedule matrix and got rid of the Wild Card system once Seattle joins in 3 years then say good bye to that dream.


Re-doing the east requires something like this:
Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo stay together
All 3 NY teams do as well.
Boston/Montreal/Ottawa have to be together also
Pit/Phil as well.

Therefore:
Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo/NYR/NYI/NJD/Car/Was
Ottawa/Montreal/Boston/Pitt/Phil/Cmb/TBL/Flo

Could work. Swap Car/Was with the Florida teams if you want.
 
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I appreciate the effort you put into this, but as I was skimming the post and saw Winniepeg aligned to the Western Canada teams instead of Seattle, I knew it was a non-starter.
 

coolboarder

Registered User
Mar 4, 2010
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Maryland
Re-doing the east requires something like this:
Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo stay together
All 3 NY teams do as well.
Boston/Montreal/Ottawa have to be together also
Pit/Phil as well.

Therefore:
Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo/NYR/NYI/NJD/Car/Was
Ottawa/Montreal/Boston/Pitt/Phil/Cmb/TBL/Flo

Could work. Swap Car/Was with the Florida teams if you want.
I would do this:
NYR, NYI, NJ, Buffalo, Toronto, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Florida
Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, Carolina, Washington, Columbus, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh

If I have to pick a poison where sacrifice has to be made with 4 choices you made above, it would be NY based teams.

Slightly different proposal than I made the first time above with your own criteria because I think that Columbus and Detroit has to be paired together.

Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo/Columbus/NYR/NYI/Florida/Tampa
Ottawa/Montreal/Boston/NJ/Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Washington/Carolina

The only loser in this one is NY area teams. But again, if you want to keep NY area teams, then you would have to pair Detroit with Columbus, not Toronto despite their original six history. I also feel that Ottawa is a real wild card here, they could be paired with Toronto due to same province but it would do Ottawa disservice because Montreal is their closest distance when compared to Toronto/Buffalo and 3 NY area teams in term of equality of travelling. Good thing that you keep Ottawa/Montreal/Boston together.
 

MNNumbers

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I would do this:
NYR, NYI, NJ, Buffalo, Toronto, Detroit, Tampa Bay, Florida
Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, Carolina, Washington, Columbus, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh

If I have to pick a poison where sacrifice has to be made with 4 choices you made above, it would be NY based teams.

Slightly different proposal than I made the first time above with your own criteria because I think that Columbus and Detroit has to be paired together.

Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo/Columbus/NYR/NYI/Florida/Tampa
Ottawa/Montreal/Boston/NJ/Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Washington/Carolina

The only loser in this one is NY area teams. But again, if you want to keep NY area teams, then you would have to pair Detroit with Columbus, not Toronto despite their original six history. I also feel that Ottawa is a real wild card here, they could be paired with Toronto due to same province but it would do Ottawa disservice because Montreal is their closest distance when compared to Toronto/Buffalo and 3 NY area teams in term of equality of travelling. Good thing that you keep Ottawa/Montreal/Boston together.

Not to go too far into the rabbit hole, because this is now bordering on a general realignment thread, but I personally feel that Columbus goes with Pittsburgh, not Detroit. And, Ottawa goes with Montreal. I think strongly about the Ottawa/Montreal connection because of my recent perusal in the Ottawa forum due to the problems with the current ownership and the LeBreton project which has crashed.

For these reasons, I say:
Bos/Mon/Ott go together
Det/Tor/Buf go together
NY all goes together

And, it's fairly easy, in my mind, to take your last list...

Detroit/Toronto/Buffalo/Columbus/NYR/NYI/Florida/Tampa
Ottawa/Montreal/Boston/NJ/Philadelphia/Pittsburgh/Washington/Carolina

and simply swap NJ and Columbus
 

KevFu

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Divisions exist to reduce the number of games played in other time zones. That's specifically the reason that Detroit demanded going into the Eastern Conference, leading to the more radical realignment we got instead of the rather easy Winnipeg-for-Nashville swap that would have kept the previous alignment.

You make that sound like NASH for WIN was ever an option. It wasn't.

Not only does it make little sense to move a CTZ team to the East when two ETZ teams wanted to move East, but the 6x5 alignment was TERRIBLE for nearly half the league.

The Southeast/Pacific Divisions were terrible for hockey from a business perspective. All of those teams wanted to play more games against "Traditional NHL opponents" instead of being in an ANNEX division of teams that didn't exist in 1987.

Minnesota for being in a division with zero members of their time zone.
Colorado for being in a division with only 2 of the closest 10 franchises to Denver (3, 7, 11, 12).
Detroit and Columbus for being in the same conference with Anaheim and Vancouver and not Buffalo and Pittsburgh.

That's 14 teams who would all benefit greatly from going to four divisions again.
 

CHRDANHUTCH

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Divisions exist to reduce the number of games played in other time zones. That's specifically the reason that Detroit demanded going into the Eastern Conference, leading to the more radical realignment we got instead of the rather easy Winnipeg-for-Nashville swap that would have kept the previous alignment.

Time zones run east-west, not north-south. North and south conferences do absolutely nothing to deal with the time zone issue. That lack of usefulness is what makes it a total a non-starter.
Detroit and Columbus did the exact same thing Toronto did previously to swap conferences nevermind divisions, Detroit's legacy now is the Illitch deal to get them into the correct conference the next time realignment occurred

some never realize Michigan itself is the far western end of the ETZ
 

oknazevad

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Oh, I agree all around that the major realignment was the correct thing to do, for all the aforementioned reasons. I mean there's a part of me that will always think of Detroit as a western team, but that's because of being a Devils fan in 1995.

But no matter how anyone slices it, the idea of a division that stretches across 4 time zones just so all the Canadian teams are in the same divisions isn't just ill-thought-out, it's utterly idiotic and anyone advocating for it should be ashamed of their stupidity.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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One of the reasons it was so palatable for DET to be in the West all those years was because prior to the 1990s expansion there were not that many Western teams and the schedule was more favorable...

1988, DET played 3 each vs 11 Eastern teams in non-conference (33), plus 8 division games vs TOR. Half vs West at home, that's 63 ETZ games.
2018, DET played 30 vs the West, half at home, so 67 ETZ games.

The problem for them was once the NHL expanded to 30, and they were in the West with CBJ, they had 53 ETZ games.
 

coolboarder

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Mar 4, 2010
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One of the reasons it was so palatable for DET to be in the West all those years was because prior to the 1990s expansion there were not that many Western teams and the schedule was more favorable...

1988, DET played 3 each vs 11 Eastern teams in non-conference (33), plus 8 division games vs TOR. Half vs West at home, that's 63 ETZ games.
2018, DET played 30 vs the West, half at home, so 67 ETZ games.

The problem for them was once the NHL expanded to 30, and they were in the West with CBJ, they had 53 ETZ games.
Thanks for bringing this up. Every time the Canucks play against the Oilers or the Flames, they are always a spirited affairs despite a time zone difference. I remember in old Norris division pre-1993, they were always a spirited affairs despite only one time zone with Leafs and Wings playing against Blues, Hawks, and North Stars. They were never a dull moment. So I feel that ETZ teams could merge a couple of teams from CTZ and travel for CTZ wouldn't be that bad. Right now, CTZ teams are spread all over from North to South and travel is still brutal so if a couple of CTZ joined with ETZ, their travel would be a lot better, they can easily combine a few divisional road games and still have a spirited affairs than rest of CTZ teams.

So if you pair Winnipeg/Minnesota with rest of ETZ division, then you would pair St. Louis/Chicago and finally, Nashville pairing with Dallas, it would work well, forcing ETZ teams to travel a lot more a few more times a year. If Quebec ever joins a team, then 9/8/8/8 would work well with Colorado returning to Pacific division. That's for another time in a realignment debate.

The reason for above, I notice that Pacific time zone teams having a hard time winning the Cup, 3 out of 10 attempts whenever they are in the Final and the primary cause is travelling. Every time you travel, you shorten your career when playing in Pacific time zone. 3 of those wins were aided by the fact that they were easier travel for both LAK Cup win and Anaheim were aided the fact that Detroit/Anaheim were in equal footing and Anaheim had the advantage of playing in same time zone for one round while Detroit didn't and were able to one-up against Red Wing. Ducks experience in Cup final were helped by the fact it was Sens first appearance. 2 other LAK wins were easier travel if you take a closer look, they had some advantage there with some luck involved, a sweep of the Blues in 2012 playoffs. 2 of their rounds were in same time zone. I don't focus on MTZ teams because they always had one time zone difference and it didn't really affect them much. MTZ won more cup with better percent, 8 out of 12 attempts. 4 losses: Flames 2x, Oilers 2x.

The stats above is telling: the more travel you endure in the playoffs, the lesser chance of winning. I wouldn't mind reducing the playoffs to 8 teams for better chance of winning the cup, top two in each conference. So therefore, I would like to see a blender in the final 4 for better chance, forcing 2 ETZ teams to travel to CTZ and PTZ in the final 4.
 

MNNumbers

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3 cup wins in 10 tries is a statistically insignificant sample size. And, the proposal you make, with the CTZ and ETZ merging, doesn't change things for the PTZ teams at all - they have the same travel they do now.
 

KevFu

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May 22, 2009
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Thanks for bringing this up.

So I feel that ETZ teams could merge a couple of teams from CTZ and travel for CTZ wouldn't be that bad. Right now, CTZ teams are spread all over from North to South and travel is still brutal so if a couple of CTZ joined with ETZ, their travel would be a lot better, they can easily combine a few divisional road games and still have a spirited affairs than rest of CTZ teams.

So if you pair Winnipeg/Minnesota with rest of ETZ division, then you would pair St. Louis/Chicago and finally, Nashville pairing with Dallas, it would work well, forcing ETZ teams to travel a lot more a few more times a year. If Quebec ever joins a team, then 9/8/8/8 would work well with Colorado returning to Pacific division. That's for another time in a realignment debate.

The reason for above, I notice that Pacific time zone teams having a hard time winning the Cup, 3 out of 10 attempts whenever they are in the Final and the primary cause is travelling.

During the whole DET/CBJ to the East thing, we kicked around some four conference alignments of Pacific, and three other groups of the rest. And I was in favor of that with the caveat that DAL/NASH/CAR/TB/FLA in a division together was business doom, and it kinda got hard to fit all that together in a fair way.

But combining two of your comments, I've always felt a more "equitable" distribution of travel burden would be to return to the old division/conference names and 16 non-conference games total, and then simply pair the Smythe & Patrick in one conference and Adams & Norris in another.

It SOUNDS crazy that doing that makes it "better" for travel by having the East Coast and West Coast in the same division, but the biggest travel burden for the WC isn't the distance of a flight, but the fact that virtually EVERY GAME is at long distance.

For example, VAN roadie at ARZ, COL, DAL, NASH, then Home is:
- Long flight, hotel
- Long flight, hotel
- Long flight, hotel
- Long flight, hotel
- Long flight, home

But VAN at NYR, NYI, NJD, PHI, Home is:
- Long flight, hotel, play 3 games.
- Short flight or bus, hotel,
- Long flight, home

Playing 3 games vs each team in the Central is 13 or 14 long flights for VAN, but 3 games vs each team in the Patrick is 6 or 7 (depending on how you define "long" and the order of the CBJ-PIT-CAR-WASH games).

For the Patrick, it's more travel, but they're constantly the shortest distance teams, and they get LA/ANA paired, VAN/SEA relatively close, EDM/CAL relatively close, SJ/VGK relatively close. And we reduced the number of times they go to the Central by half.

For 6 of the Central teams, it's far better going to the Adams instead of the Smythe.
For the Adams, it's longer than before, but not too bad because they go to the Smythe half as much.

Instead of like (ballparking mileage) 70,000 Smythe, 55,000 Norris, 35,000 Adams and 25,000 Patrick, it would be more like:
55,000 Smythe, 45,000 Norris, 45,000 Adams, 40,000 Patrick. Far more equitable.


I do disagree on the "That's why the Pacific teams don't win the Cup" standpoint; just because it's unclear if you mean "going West to East and back in the Finals" vs " the grinding toll catches up with them by then, the East team is always fresher."

The grinding toll argument would work for me... except for the fact that the East would be fresher than the CENTRAL as well because of how the conference schedule was in the six division format and the SCF margin in not severe at all. In the last 36 seasons it's 19-17 Western Conference. The NHL changed radically during that time adding Western teams in SJ, ANA, COL, ARZ, DAL, NASH, VGK, returning to MIN and WIN:

2014-18 (4 division format): West 2-3
- Pacific 1-2, Central 1-1

1999-2017 (6-division format): West 8-6
Current members...
- Pacific: 2-4, Central: 4-1 (plus DET 2-1 for 8-6 total)

1982-1998: West 9-8
- Smythe: 7-5, Norris: 2-3 (includes DET 2-1)

The West isn't getting trounced now, wasn't before expansion, and the Pacific/Smythe hasn't been the worst performing division in the SCF at any of those three eras.

You wanna say "the travel grind is why VAN is 0-3, losing to teams in NY ans BOS" that's totally fair. The travel grind is real and exists and is a factor. But it's small sample sizes because PHI has had the 4th easiest travel schedule in the league for 40 years running because they have four opponents so close by, and they're 0-3 in the SCF in that span.
 

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