Seattle's in. Now let's focus on Quebec... and blowing up this insane East-West alignment.

[Centrum Hockey]

I think that Quebec's ship has already left port when the Flames went to Winnipeg. If the Coyotes move, it really looks like Houston for reasons of geography.

if Ottawa moves to Houston Chicago Could reunite with Detroit in the Metro and the Hurricanes could take the Sens place in the Atlantic

 

[gstommylee]

if Ottawa moves to Houston Chicago Could reunite with Detroit in the Metro and the Hurricanes could take the Sens place in the Atlantic

Ottawa isn't going to move out west if they do at all.

 

[coolboarder]

The league could easily be 40 teams, 32 in US, 8 in Canada if they want to. I feel that 32 teams would be a mainstay for at least a decade before they consider another expansion team. They ought to fix a few troubling franchises first before expanding. I could see this situation, any team in East is in trouble is more likely move to Quebec City and any team in the West would be relocated and stay in Western conference so that it stays balanced, 16-16. Houston or Portland is viable options, depending on which city, if Arizona is moving, Houston would be candidate or if any PTZ is in trouble, Portland is on table with already hockey configuration built in Rose Arena.

 

[coolboarder]

Another scenario could be, if there's expansion team is on horizon, I could see them expanding 4 teams at once to keep it balanced, 9 teams in each conference and two in East (Quebec, Cleveland, Hartford, or Baltimore), and one in Central (Kansas City, Houston or Salt Lake City) and one in Pacific (Portland)

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Another scenario could be, if there's expansion team is on horizon, I could see them expanding 4 teams at once to keep it balanced, 9 teams in each conference and two in East (Quebec, Cleveland, Hartford, or Baltimore), and one in Central (Kansas City, Houston or Salt Lake City) and one in Pacific (Portland)

Jacobs would Never allow another team in New England

 

[BKIslandersFan]

The league could easily be 40 teams, 32 in US, 8 in Canada if they want to. I feel that 32 teams would be a mainstay for at least a decade before they consider another expansion team. They ought to fix a few troubling franchises first before expanding. I could see this situation, any team in East is in trouble is more likely move to Quebec City and any team in the West would be relocated and stay in Western conference so that it stays balanced, 16-16. Houston or Portland is viable options, depending on which city, if Arizona is moving, Houston would be candidate or if any PTZ is in trouble, Portland is on table with already hockey configuration built in Rose Arena.

32 does seem to be an arbitrary number set by NFL.

But i don’t feel like hockey has enough talent pool to support 40 NHL teams.

Think only leagues that can pull that off are NBA and MLS because of the depth of potential talents.

 

[DudeWhereIsMakar]

First off, rename Metro to Atlantic, then move Tampa and Florida into that division.

Bring in two teams into the Northeast division, Hartford and Quebec.
In the Central, it'd either be Houston or Kansas City, or another city in that region that has tons of interest in hockey. But if both join, move Arizona into the west, unless Arizona moves to Houston or Kansas City (most likely Houston).
In the Pacific, Portland, but San Diego might do it one day. Maybe even Salt Lake City, but I see them going under the Utah name.

My final answer.

Northeast:
Boston
Buffalo
Detroit
Hartford
Montreal
NYI
Quebec
Ottawa
Toronto

Atlantic:
Carolina
Columbus
New Jersey
NYR
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Florida
Tampa
Washington

Central:
Arizona*
Chicago
Colorado
Dallas
Houston
Minnesota
Nashville
St. Louis
Winnipeg

Pacific:
Anaheim
Calgary
Edmonton
Los Angeles
Portland
San Jose
Seattle
Vancouver
Vegas

 

[KevFu]

I think QC is coming soon (probably with Houston, but it wouldn’t surprise me if “unnamed West market” jumps in with QC and Houston waits on a Bell/Rogers divorce, which is the only way Southern Ontario gets a second team.


To everyone citing MONEY, or the the NHL passing on QC expansion when just taking Vegas as a sign that QC won’t spend the dough (they were will) or lack of interest in the market by the NHL, I think you’re drastically selling short the geographic balance factor.

YES, it’s stupid to deny an expansion bid of a team you’d welcome back with open arms, which the LEAGUE would.
YES, the league had 16-14 and 16-15 splits for a few years and everything was “just fine.”

But the league only calls for a vote when they know it’s going to be unanimous (I’d assume some votes are announced as unanimous that were really second-ballot unanimous votes, after the league said “well, it passed, let’s vote again to present a united front).

Owners are voting from a self-preservation standpoint. Everyone KNEW that 16-14 and 16-15 wasn’t “open ended.” Expansion was coming. But with Les Alexander and Paul Allen alive and not buying teams, and Southern Ontario blocked, the NHL really didn’t have another Western market to join with Quebec.

Any 17-15 split would be open-ended. And that puts DET, CBJ, TB, FLA, CAR, WAS, PIT, PHI, BUF, BOS in a position where “We’d be fine with THIS alignment, but we don’t have certainty we’re going to be fine with the NEXT ONE, and the next one is GOING TO COME soon when it’s 17-15.”

They’re thinking that if Seattle doesn’t get an arena, and the Coyotes move to Atlanta in 2023…

- are DET/CBJ bumped back West?
- are PIT/PHI split up?
- are WAS/CAR moved away from NY-NJ-PHI?
- would BOS be shifted with the “Patrick teams”?
- etc, etc.


I expect you start hearing some Houston, Portland, San Diego rumors as the NHL tries to get someone to be market #34 and join with Quebec.

That’s why the DEFERRED the QC bid, they did not reject it. (It also wouldn’t surprise me if a big chunk of QC’s $500m expansion fee has been sitting in an account generating interest).

 

[Centrum Hockey]

I think QC is coming soon (probably with Houston, but it wouldn’t surprise me if “unnamed West market” jumps in with QC and Houston waits on a Bell/Rogers divorce, which is the only way Southern Ontario gets a second team.


To everyone citing MONEY, or the the NHL passing on QC expansion when just taking Vegas as a sign that QC won’t spend the dough (they were will) or lack of interest in the market by the NHL, I think you’re drastically selling short the geographic balance factor.

YES, it’s stupid to deny an expansion bid of a team you’d welcome back with open arms, which the LEAGUE would.
YES, the league had 16-14 and 16-15 splits for a few years and everything was “just fine.”

But the league only calls for a vote when they know it’s going to be unanimous (I’d assume some votes are announced as unanimous that were really second-ballot unanimous votes, after the league said “well, it passed, let’s vote again to present a united front).

Owners are voting from a self-preservation standpoint. Everyone KNEW that 16-14 and 16-15 wasn’t “open ended.” Expansion was coming. But with Les Alexander and Paul Allen alive and not buying teams, and Southern Ontario blocked, the NHL really didn’t have another Western market to join with Quebec.

Any 17-15 split would be open-ended. And that puts DET, CBJ, TB, FLA, CAR, WAS, PIT, PHI, BUF, BOS in a position where “We’d be fine with THIS alignment, but we don’t have certainty we’re going to be fine with the NEXT ONE, and the next one is GOING TO COME soon when it’s 17-15.”

They’re thinking that if Seattle doesn’t get an arena, and the Coyotes move to Atlanta in 2023…

- are DET/CBJ bumped back West?
- are PIT/PHI split up?
- are WAS/CAR moved away from NY-NJ-PHI?
- would BOS be shifted with the “Patrick teams”?
- etc, etc.


I expect you start hearing some Houston, Portland, San Diego rumors as the NHL tries to get someone to be market #34 and join with Quebec.

That’s why the DEFERRED the QC bid, they did not reject it. (It also wouldn’t surprise me if a big chunk of QC’s $500m expansion fee has been sitting in an account generating interest).

the red wings dont want to be in the west Red Wings see numerous advantages and no drawbacks to possibly moving East next season

 

[KevFu]

the red wings dont want to be in the west Red Wings see numerous advantages and no drawbacks to possibly moving East next season

Exactly. They'd be fearful of a 32-team league with Quebec and 17-15 split that leaves them as a the "western most team in an uneven league." And who would be knocking on the door for expansion?

Seattle wasn't "dying to get the NHL." They're dying to get the NBA. But all the expansion rumors made Seattle think "We don't want to be LEFT OUT if the NHL goes to 32!"

The NHL had a ton of different rumors flying, and it basically amounted to "drumming up interest in markets to pounce on an expansion team of their own."

The NHL had their 17th East team, but you want to get someone to jump at buying West #15, West #16 and West #17 before you pull the trigger on that. And so far, it's working. Now the NHL can work on Houston. Expect San Diego rumors to start flying.

 

[KevFu]

First off, rename Metro to Atlantic, then move Tampa and Florida into that division.

You don’t want to put the Southeast teams into one division. Dividing them up was brilliant.

The smart play would be the Adams adds Quebec and trades TB and FLA to the Patrick for CAR.


It’s the very same reason the OP’s “North/South” thing doesn’t work financially. It’s funny how the desires of the OP back up what I posted in the “Home/Away” thread about the ticket sales for non-conference games, and games vs Old or New “Brands.”

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Exactly. They'd be fearful of a 32-team league with Quebec and 17-15 split that leaves them as a the "western most team in an uneven league." And who would be knocking on the door for expansion?

Seattle wasn't "dying to get the NHL." They're dying to get the NBA. But all the expansion rumors made Seattle think "We don't want to be LEFT OUT if the NHL goes to 32!"

The NHL had a ton of different rumors flying, and it basically amounted to "drumming up interest in markets to pounce on an expansion team of their own."

The NHL had their 17th East team, but you want to get someone to jump at buying West #15, West #16 and West #17 before you pull the trigger on that. And so far, it's working. Now the NHL can work on Houston. Expect San Diego rumors to start flying.

Chicago or Nashville could easily move east if any Eastern conference team moves to Houston in the future. the bulls where in the west in the NBA but in 1980 they moved to the east to accommodate the expansion mavericks.

 

[mouser]

That’s why the DEFERRED the QC bid, they did not reject it. (It also wouldn’t surprise me if a big chunk of QC’s $500m expansion fee has been sitting in an account generating interest).

Quebecor is a publicly traded company, so they report financials quarterly, of which I've read many. I can guarantee you they don't have any material part of the expansion fee sitting around idle.

A substantial number of large companies like Quebecor run very large AR/AP balances with a revolving line of credit facility to fund operations as needed. For example, as of Sep 30th Quebecor reported $23m in cash and cash equivalents on their balance sheet and $6B in long term debt. To be clear, this isn't anything negative or unique about Quebecor. A significant number of large companies have substantial long term debt and don't keep a big pile of cash sitting idle. Especially ones like Quebecor where large capital investments are required.

 

[ponder719]

Jacobs would Never allow another team in New England

Not to be morbid, but the thing about people is that eventually, they die. Jeremy Jacobs may not want another team in New England, but he will not remain the not-so-secret preeminent power in the league forever, and that position will not necessarily pass down to his successor. If, in the future, someone decides they have a billion dollar love of Brass Bonanza and the political will behind them to make it happen, the Whalers very well could rise again, and there will come a time when Jacobs will not be there to put a wall in their way.

*Note: none of this establishes that a Whaler revival will happen, merely that it could. I am realistic about the likelihood of the NHL expanding to the 47th largest MSA when there is no team currently in the 5th or 9th largest.*

 

[Centrum Hockey]

Not to be morbid, but the thing about people is that eventually, they die. Jeremy Jacobs may not want another team in New England, but he will not remain the not-so-secret preeminent power in the league forever, and that position will not necessarily pass down to his successor. If, in the future, someone decides they have a billion dollar love of Brass Bonanza and the political will behind them to make it happen, the Whalers very well could rise again, and there will come a time when Jacobs will not be there to put a wall in their way.

*Note: none of this establishes that a Whaler revival will happen, merely that it could. I am realistic about the likelihood of the NHL expanding to the 47th largest MSA when there is no team currently in the 5th or 9th largest.*

The Whalers are bigger now than they ever where when they existed Hartford Whalers yearly attendance at hockeydb.com a lot of there attendance was from Away fans.
AHl legend Bruce Landon admitted that the both Springfield AHL Teams did not do very well at the gate when they where whalers affiliates despite Springfield being closer to Hartford than Boston
Springfield Indians [AHL, 1975-1994] yearly attendance at hockeydb.com
Springfield Falcons yearly attendance at hockeydb.com

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Not to be morbid, but the thing about people is that eventually, they die. Jeremy Jacobs may not want another team in New England, but he will not remain the not-so-secret preeminent power in the league forever, and that position will not necessarily pass down to his successor. If, in the future, someone decides they have a billion dollar love of Brass Bonanza and the political will behind them to make it happen, the Whalers very well could rise again, and there will come a time when Jacobs will not be there to put a wall in their way.

*Note: none of this establishes that a Whaler revival will happen, merely that it could. I am realistic about the likelihood of the NHL expanding to the 47th largest MSA when there is no team currently in the 5th or 9th largest.*

No intelligent businessmen that buys Bruins after Jacobs dies will want a team in Hartford either.

 

[LeapOnOver]

The post seems well thought out and a lot of effort went into it, however it seems like it all that work was based on the assumption that the reason QC doesn't have an expansion team boils down to a schedule and keeping tradition. I highly doubt that even has more than 10% to do with it.

 

[patnyrnyg]

First off, rename Metro to Atlantic, then move Tampa and Florida into that division.

Bring in two teams into the Northeast division, Hartford and Quebec.
In the Central, it'd either be Houston or Kansas City, or another city in that region that has tons of interest in hockey. But if both join, move Arizona into the west, unless Arizona moves to Houston or Kansas City (most likely Houston).
In the Pacific, Portland, but San Diego might do it one day. Maybe even Salt Lake City, but I see them going under the Utah name.

My final answer.

Northeast:
Boston
Buffalo
Detroit
Hartford
Montreal
NYI
Quebec
Ottawa
Toronto

Atlantic:
Carolina
Columbus
New Jersey
NYR
Philadelphia
Pittsburgh
Florida
Tampa
Washington

Central:
Arizona*
Chicago
Colorado
Dallas
Houston
Minnesota
Nashville
St. Louis
Winnipeg

Pacific:
Anaheim
Calgary
Edmonton
Los Angeles
Portland
San Jose
Seattle
Vancouver
Vegas

Rangers and Isles going to be in different divisions? yeah, ok.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Another scenario could be, if there's expansion team is on horizon, I could see them expanding 4 teams at once to keep it balanced, 9 teams in each conference and two in East (Quebec, Cleveland, Hartford, or Baltimore), and one in Central (Kansas City, Houston or Salt Lake City) and one in Pacific (Portland)

Baltimore? Cleveland? Salt Lake City? Kansas City? Where are you coming up with this?

 

[sawchuk1971]

brian burke is skeptical about quebec being in the nhl..

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Not to be morbid, but the thing about people is that eventually, they die. Jeremy Jacobs may not want another team in New England, but he will not remain the not-so-secret preeminent power in the league forever, and that position will not necessarily pass down to his successor. If, in the future, someone decides they have a billion dollar love of Brass Bonanza and the political will behind them to make it happen, the Whalers very well could rise again, and there will come a time when Jacobs will not be there to put a wall in their way.

*Note: none of this establishes that a Whaler revival will happen, merely that it could. I am realistic about the likelihood of the NHL expanding to the 47th largest MSA when there is no team currently in the 5th or 9th largest.*

Hartford is not a pro sports town.

Population is rapidly shrinking, companies are leaving, and they fail to support AHL franchises.

IF the NHL were putting a 2nd team in NE, Providence would be the better bet.

Bigger city. 178k pop, 1.6m metro (38th)

Strong hockey culture from HS up to AHL.

Mount St Charles is one of the hockey schools in the country and produced many NHL'ers, and 2 #1 overall picks, like Berard, Lawton, Boucher, Snow, Schneider.

PC hockey has emerged as one of the top Hockey East schools, winning a recent national title

Long AHL history back to the 30s. First the Reds who won 4 Calder Cups and had players like Bauer, Dumart, Schmidt, Brimsek, Giacomin

Current home of the P-Bruins, who have drawn 9,000 a game since their inception in 1992.

but realistically, there is no room for a 2nd team in New England. The Bruins are a religion and you wont take fans away from them (and in CT you hit the same thing with the Rangers as well)

 

[patnyrnyg]

I agree on Hartford. As much as I would love to have the Whalers back and another road game to which I could drive to see the Rangers, it is just not happening. Everyone I have ever met from Connecticut always talked about how much they HATE the city of Hartford and avoid going at all costs. When I was in college, I had friends from New Caanan. Two were Whalers fans and never went to games simply because they hated going to Hartford, even when they could get free tickets through their parent's job. They split the state with 2 other fan bases in the Rangers and Bruins. Similar to the Devils, but the Devils were never looking to draw from South Jersey so the impact of the Flyers owning that territory was not that big of a deal.

As far as the above, even Providence is likely an uphill battle. Yes, they have a hockey culture, but it is already Bruins territory. How many of Rhode Island people are just going to give up their Bruins loyalty to be a fan of the new Providence Club? It would take years and nobody with the money to own a team will want to deal with that.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Jacobs would Never allow another team in New England

Unless he has some territorial veto right, he gets 1 vote. The days of the norris family running the league from behind a curtain are long gone. If you think these other billionaire owners are going to let one man manipulate things and prevent them from getting a $650MM expansion fee because he doesn't want a team there, then you are naive. The real issue is not Jacobs. The real issue is no owner would want to own a team in Hartford.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

I agree on Hartford. As much as I would love to have the Whalers back and another road game to which I could drive to see the Rangers, it is just not happening. Everyone I have ever met from Connecticut always talked about how much they HATE the city of Hartford and avoid going at all costs. When I was in college, I had friends from New Caanan. Two were Whalers fans and never went to games simply because they hated going to Hartford, even when they could get free tickets through their parent's job. They split the state with 2 other fan bases in the Rangers and Bruins. Similar to the Devils, but the Devils were never looking to draw from South Jersey so the impact of the Flyers owning that territory was not that big of a deal.

As far as the above, even Providence is likely an uphill battle. Yes, they have a hockey culture, but it is already Bruins territory. How many of Rhode Island people are just going to give up their Bruins loyalty to be a fan of the new Providence Club? It would take years and nobody with the money to own a team will want to deal with that.

oh, definitely none would. Hell, Providence and Boston are basically 1 big metro area. my overall point at the end was no 2nd team has a chance in hell in New England against the Bruins.

just using Providence as an example of how Hartford wouldn't even be the best option in New England.

 

[patnyrnyg]

oh, none would for sure. my overall point at the end was no 2nd team has a chance in hell in New England against the Bruins.

just using Providence as an example of how Hartford wouldn't even be the best option in New England.

Ok, gotchya. I see what you are saying.