Player Discussion Sean Monahan

[Darth Vladar]

Why?

It just seems like a lot of the Flames success hinges on Mony, whether in terms of how well he plays for us and/or how much Tre can get in return for him. I've not really been paying too much attention to hockey for a few years, and hadn't realized his game had fallen that far off. I took a look to see if there was a Mony thread before starting a new one, and found this one three pages back, so I bumped it.

The lineup is rather atrocious without him in it. I'm kinda curious (and hopeful) to see if he can turn it around, it seems fans are pretty divided on him now.

 

[Kranix]

It just seems like a lot of the Flames success hinges on Mony, whether in terms of how well he plays for us and/or how much Tre can get in return for him. I've not really been paying too much attention to hockey for a few years, and hadn't realized his game had fallen that far off. I took a look to see if there was a Mony thread before starting a new one, and found this one three pages back, so I bumped it.

The lineup is rather atrocious without him in it. I'm kinda curious (and hopeful) to see if he can turn it around, it seems fans are pretty divided on him now.

He gets wrist surgery every off-season. Flames success hinges on getting Eichel.

 

[Darth Vladar]

He gets wrist surgery every off-season. Flames success hinges on getting Eichel.

Wasn't there a hip injury or something also?

 

[Mazatt]

I feel like there isn't much to say on Monahan until he starts the season and we see if he's healthy, the role he's in, how he plays, etc. etc. He's gotten countless surgeries, and the discourse of whether he should be on the wing or at centre seems moot given how much time has been spent on it. Only real question in my mind is if his improved defensive numbers are a tell of how Sutter wants to use him, or moreseo a necessity to keep him in the lineup given his lack of offensive prowess last year. Though, if he shows the ability to finish like years prior there's no real reason to figure that he can't also play defensive, engaged hockey under Sutter.

In some ways the argument that the season relies on Monahan is interesting. If he's healthy and a capable centre that certainly makes the Flames more dangerous, and if he continues to decline then there's a bit of a middle-six boat anchor sitting around taking up space. But on the other hand, like, if Monahan succeeds offensively that's almost a direct showing that his linemates are effective which implies success separate from Monahan given his playstyle, and if he struggles, well, we saw the Flames get relatively close to the playoffs with him hurt/struggling, and I'd figure Sutter would have a short leash if things go downhill quickly and there are potential for in-house C replacements such as Dube, so it feels like Monahan's just another cog. Season would be a lot reliant on the likes of Andersson, Markstrom, Gaudreau and Tkachuk all being effective and preforming at their relative, expected peaks.

Be all end all in my eyes is that the questions around Monahan are still the same. Can his playstyle work as a centre? Or is that question irrelevant if Sutter can get his defensive play to be more definitive? And how will he be utilized? Is it better to force a square peg into a round hole by having an offensive finisher pigeonholed into a defensive role to match his position or is it better to slide him to the wing? Those questions, beyond his defence getting better, have all been pretty par for the course since I've been here, so I don't think there's too much to say on him (I say, after 3 paragraphs about him)

 

[OvermanKingGainer]

Can his playstyle work as a centre? Or is that question irrelevant if Sutter can get his defensive play to be more definitive?

I'd say that the issue isn't "defensive play", it's "transitional play"

A center with Monahan's defensive zone play, who can lug the puck through the middle with speed, is a good center.

But that's simply not something in Monahan's skillset. His only breakout play is to make a pass to his winger, and wingers fundamentally can't transition the puck as effectively because they're pinched off by the sideboards.

Monahan should be a winger fullstop.

 

[Mazatt]

I'd say that the issue isn't "defensive play", it's "transitional play"

A center with Monahan's defensive zone play, who can lug the puck through the middle with speed, is a good center.

But that's simply not something in Monahan's skillset. His only breakout play is to make a pass to his winger, and wingers fundamentally can't transition the puck as effectively because they're pinched off by the sideboards.

Monahan should be a winger fullstop.

Very fair point, his shortcomings as a centre can't just be simplifed down to his defence being poor.

Monahan just makes a bit too much sense at winger. Wins board battles, is a finisher as opposed to a playmaker, has low speed, and his puck possession abilities all seem to be built around getting low and shielding the puck instead of any real dekes, dangles, or things like speed to get him through the middle of the ice. Feels like this all could be avoided with Dube centring Monahan

 

[Khrox]

Very fair point, his shortcomings as a centre can't just be simplifed down to his defence being poor.

I mean, at this point, that's not even that true anymore (being one of our best defensive players since Sutter took over. Admittedly, not a huge sample size, but under Sutter his EV defensive metrics shot up, and he saw PK time for the first time in 3 years, and performed decently at that too).

I think it's the fact that if we aren't getting that 30g/70p center, people just won't be happy with him, regardless of what he does. I honestly see him being a key guy under Sutter. His offense may drop a bit from those 30g/30a days, but I can see him being key in a bunch of these 2-1 wins that Sutter likes to get. Especially if he continues improving/showing what he can do defensively in Sutter's system.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Well if he's still here and we seem set on playing him prime minutes Monahan before he A) improves defensively, B) starts PKing his nuts off, and/or C)competently and consistently carries the puck through the NZ, he needs to do 1 thing first and foremost for this team.

Score goals.

He's always been a natural goalscorer. So be that again. Hopefully his wrist is not completely blown because his hands and shot in tight are his best assets. And if it is we are in terrible shape. Mony plays better in general when he's scoring so getting off to a good start is paramount for him.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I just traded Kopitar for Monahan in my fantasy league, I believe.

 

[InfinityIggy]

I just traded Kopitar for Monahan in my fantasy league, I believe.

Excellent GMing.

 

[Mazatt]

I mean, at this point, that's not even that true anymore (being one of our best defensive players since Sutter took over. Admittedly, not a huge sample size, but under Sutter his EV defensive metrics shot up, and he saw PK time for the first time in 3 years, and performed decently at that too).

I think that calls up to the questions posted above wherein, yes, Monahan was good defensively but his defensive upside has seemingly only occured when injured/to the detriment to his offence, so while maybe it isn't fair to say he can't be good defensively, it's moreso can he be good defensively while also performing offensively, and we just haven't seen that yet. I don't doubt he can have good metrics on both ends of the ice but until it's seen it's a major question mark.

 

[Mobiandi]

He needs to stop playing injured, full-stop. It's obvious when he's doing it and it's never worth it. For his personal health, it's time to start going on IR when these episodes happen, so as to reduce the chance of off-season surgery. The team needs to take action and be proactive here because players will always say they're good to go

 

[Khrox]

He needs to stop playing injured, full-stop. It's obvious when he's doing it and it's never worth it. For his personal health, it's time to start going on IR when these episodes happen, so as to reduce the chance of off-season surgery. The team needs to take action and be proactive here because players will always say they're good to go

I agree, but it's also a two-fold thing. He still can play through it, so "wants to be part of the teams push to the playoffs", which probably wouldn't be a huge issue if it wasn't for the second issue. Which is, without Monahan in the lineup, we have absolutely no shot at even making the playoffs for him to come back to (part of why management consistently lets him play injured until we're mathematically eliminated).

 

[Yepthatsme]

I mean, at this point, that's not even that true anymore (being one of our best defensive players since Sutter took over. Admittedly, not a huge sample size, but under Sutter his EV defensive metrics shot up, and he saw PK time for the first time in 3 years, and performed decently at that too).

I think it's the fact that if we aren't getting that 30g/70p center, people just won't be happy with him, regardless of what he does. I honestly see him being a key guy under Sutter. His offense may drop a bit from those 30g/30a days, but I can see him being key in a bunch of these 2-1 wins that Sutter likes to get. Especially if he continues improving/showing what he can do defensively in Sutter's system.

In the 12 games after he was split up with Gaudreau and before being shutdown, while playing with Dube and Mangiapane/Ritchie, he had an xGF% of 57% and was only on the ice for 3GA. That’s better results than he posted on a line with Gaudreau all season. Give him Mangiapane and Coleman and that should be a crazy effective second line no matter how healthy Monahan is.

 

[Darth Vladar]

In the 12 games after he was split up with Gaudreau and before being shutdown, while playing with Dube and Mangiapane/Ritchie, he had an xGF% of 57% and was only on the ice for 3GA. That’s better results than he posted on a line with Gaudreau all season. Give him Mangiapane and Coleman and that should be a crazy effective second line no matter how healthy Monahan is.

If his style is better suited for the wing, why not bump Dube up and put Mony with Backs and Looch? I'm starting to think I'd rather see Mangi/Dube/Coleman together.

 

[Mazatt]

If his style is better suited for the wing, why not bump Dube up and put Mony with Backs and Looch? I'm starting to think I'd rather see Mangi/Dube/Coleman together.

If you're going to move Monahan to the wing it seems very counter-productive to have Dube learn centre as a top 6 forward compared to somewhere where he can be limited. Beyond that, just the pure fit of Mangi - Backlund - Coleman as a monster possession line feels better than what would be out there with Dube as it's centre. In my mind, at least, we're comfortable moving Monahan to the wing because Backlund is theoretically a capable 2nd line centre and Dube can be insulated in the bottom 6, not because we're expected Dube to step into that role. Plus utilization wise, it's hard to have all three top 9 lines unable to be "shutdown" quality which would be the case if Dube was between Mangiapane and Coleman imo.

 

[Darth Vladar]

If you're going to move Monahan to the wing it seems very counter-productive to have Dube learn centre as a top 6 forward compared to somewhere where he can be limited. Beyond that, just the pure fit of Mangi - Backlund - Coleman as a monster possession line feels better than what would be out there with Dube as it's centre. In my mind, at least, we're comfortable moving Monahan to the wing because Backlund is theoretically a capable 2nd line centre and Dube can be insulated in the bottom 6, not because we're expected Dube to step into that role. Plus utilization wise, it's hard to have all three top 9 lines unable to be "shutdown" quality which would be the case if Dube was between Mangiapane and Coleman imo.

I'm not sure what you mean by "learn center as a top-six forward", or why he should be limited, but Dube is listed as a center almost everywhere I've looked except Capfriendly, was 61% on faceoffs last year for the Flames (in an albeit small sample), and has already shown good chemistry with Mangi, who I believe is pretty much guaranteed to be on a line with Coleman. Not sure why you have to insulate Dube, he looked pretty good last year. These guys would be deadly off the rush. Some people are expecting this defensive-minded forward in Coleman, but I think he and Mangi are going to light it up together.

Let's be real, the Flames don't have the personnel for any line to be a proper "shutdown" line, which is why we acquired a couple monsters on D. We are damn lucky to have Backlund, who can play anywhere they put him, and makes whoever he plays with better, but I think it could actually bring out the best in Mony's game to put them together, and 20G/40P is not outside the realm of possibility for Lucic with those two feeding him.

1st line - Offense (Johnny/Lindy/Chucky)
2nd line - Two-Way/Speed/Finish (Mangi/Dube/Coleman)
3rd line - Two-Way/Possession/Finish (Mony/Backs/Looch)
4th line - The Sutter Line

 

[Mazatt]

I'm not sure what you mean by "learn center as a top-six forward", or why he should be limited, but Dube is listed as a center almost everywhere I've looked except Capfriendly, was 61% on faceoffs last year for the Flames (in an albeit small sample), and has already shown good chemistry with Mangi, who I believe is pretty much guaranteed to be on a line with Coleman. Not sure why you have to insulate Dube, he looked pretty good last year. These guys would be deadly off the rush. Some people are expecting this defensive-minded forward in Coleman, but I think he and Mangi are going to light it up together.

Let's be real, the Flames don't have the personnel for any line to be a proper "shutdown" line, which is why we acquired a couple monsters on D. We are damn lucky to have Backlund, who can play anywhere they put him, and makes whoever he plays with better, but I think it could actually bring out the best in Mony's game to put them together, and 20G/40P is not outside the realm of possibility for Lucic with those two feeding him.

1st line - Offense (Johnny/Lindy/Chucky)
2nd line - Two-Way/Speed/Finish (Mangi/Dube/Coleman)
3rd line - Two-Way/Possession/Finish (Mony/Backs/Looch)
4th line - The Sutter Line

Personally, I just disagree on Dube. He hasn't played centre at the NHL level afaik as he spent 40% of his even strength ice time with Tkachuk and Lindholm, or with Lucic and some combination of Backlund/Bennett (20.5% of his ice time last season). In fact he's only spent ~15% (and that's generous cause I don't wanna do all the direct math rn) of his 5v5 ice time with Mangiapane so I'm not sure about chemistry beyond the goal they combined on against Vancouver on the PP. Regardless, Dube simply hasn't played centre and there's a lot more to what he needs to do than faceoffs. Plus, just per my eye he was a bit lacklustre on the wing, and wasn't ready for top 6 ice time on the wing, let alone as a centre. I'd figure Sutter saw something similar since he was scratched a bit, and benched often towards the end of games.

I do think Coleman and Mangiapane ae going to be strong together offensively, but that doesn't take away their strong defensive metrics and play that would make them prime for a shutdown line, whereas putting Monahan and Lucic together feels like an awful way to treat Backlund given that's a very... slow moving pairing for him to work with when he's likely to be relied upon a bit defensively. To keep this relatively on topic with Monahan, I think utilizing him in part of a shutdown/defensive line that Sutter is sure to want to deploy Backlund under is going to mismanage his talents if he's able to finish effecitvely again. If he's shifted to the wing it's to be to utilize as offence first as his two-way game isn't satisfying Sutter, and he's going to be utilized in a sheltered role (potentially alongside Lucic and Dube) to provide offence and special teams support in bursts.

 

[Khrox]

I do think Coleman and Mangiapane ae going to be strong together offensively, but that doesn't take away their strong defensive metrics and play that would make them prime for a shutdown line, whereas putting Monahan and Lucic together feels like an awful way to treat Backlund given that's a very... slow moving pairing for him to work with when he's likely to be relied upon a bit defensively. To keep this relatively on topic with Monahan, I think utilizing him in part of a shutdown/defensive line that Sutter is sure to want to deploy Backlund under is going to mismanage his talents if he's able to finish effecitvely again. If he's shifted to the wing it's to be to utilize as offence first as his two-way game isn't satisfying Sutter, and he's going to be utilized in a sheltered role (potentially alongside Lucic and Dube) to provide offence and special teams support in bursts.

You see, I could 100% see a Mangi-Monahan-Coleman line as well. Because it fits with Sutter wanting to play defensively (and given Mony's play under him, it would give him some good wingers to become even better defensively with), but it wouldn't hinder his offense as well. And still leaves a top line of Johnny/Lindy/Chucky. Dube could easily play with Lucic and Backlund, and Backs is good at bringing people in, and if we do see Dube as a center, could definitely mentor him there as well.

 

[JPeeper]

He needs to stop playing injured, full-stop. It's obvious when he's doing it and it's never worth it. For his personal health, it's time to start going on IR when these episodes happen, so as to reduce the chance of off-season surgery. The team needs to take action and be proactive here because players will always say they're good to go

This, I can't believe people ever questioned his heart, the guy doesn't want to take games off ever.

But he also needs to know when he shouldn't be playing because it has also costed the Flames games because he just can't function properly. Guy played probably 3-4 months last year before he eventually got taken out, the year he had 4 surgeries in the offseason he also went multiple months before he finally had to call it when we were eliminated from the playoffs.

When he is healthy he is one of the best goal scorers in the league, when he isn't the guy is completely useless.

Playing away from Gaudreau will be good for him, the team has enough good wingers that can get him the puck (Mangi, Dube, Coleman, etc.) which will hopefully allow him to play his own game rather than to defer to Gaudreau almost instantly every shift.

I think being pigeonholed with Gaudreau for so long ultimately ruined his development as a center. He would just defer to Gaudreau always, every shift. He isn't that old so hopefully he can regain some of his puckhandling, but he isn't young either so it may be too late.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

All I know is that he is going to outscore Kopitar this season.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

If anything ever said "have a break, have a kit-kat" it's that.

 

[Mobiandi]

Bennett trade looks more stupid with each passing day

 

[InfinityIggy]

If anything ever said "have a break, have a kit-kat" it's that.

So he was more or less playing injured all year. Good grief.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Bennett trade looks more stupid with each passing day

And usage. Monahan was very obviously playing hurt. Probably would have been wise to rest him up early in the season, especially considering they had a perfectly capable young center coming off an excellent playoffs (as a center) rotting away as a bottom 6 winger.