Player Discussion Sean Monahan

[cheechoo]

Backlund's long stick (no...) has always been an element that he's used to his advantage throughout his career. It's why he's been so good at shielding the puck on his backhand cruising into the zone. Also made him wizardry defensively with his poke checks and stick lifts.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Backlund's long stick (no...) has always been an element that he's used to his advantage throughout his career. It's why he's been so good at shielding the puck on his backhand cruising into the zone. Also made him wizardry defensively with his poke checks and stick lifts.

For sure. I think it does take away from his finishing ability, especially around the net. He's got an extremely underrated shot though. But for a player of his mold, I think his stick is the right length. I will say a shorter stick is better for puck control / protection. You lose some range, but with a shorter stick you can be much much stronger on the puck when you've only got your top hand on the stick. Crosby again is a great example of this.

A guy who IMO could benefit greatly from a shorter stick is Sam Bennett. His game revolves around his skating and playmaking (at least it should). A shorter stick would do wonders for his puck handling, puck carrying, and finishing around the net.

 

[CamPopplestone]

If Bennett had actually panned out as a top line centre, Monahan would have been our second, Backlund third, and things would be different. Monahan's just not the type of centre to carry the team. Pre injuries in 2018 he was a low tier top line centre, as there weren't 30+ you'd probably take above him as your top centre. But he was never good enough to carry the team.

Even if Bennett had actually become a good second line centre and we had that double threat, it would have helped.

I still don't think Monahan's an awful player, he's a solid player hampered by injuries and his skating isn't going to let him keep up all the time. Unfortunately he's not really what we need right now. Not unless we got an Eichel in our laps to take significant pressure off him.

 

[super6646]

23 pts in 38 games. Pacing for 49 pts in 82.

Backs has 22 in 38 and is pacing for 47 in 82 games. That’s 3 of the last 5 yrs of comparable production, with backs arguably the more valuable offensive player the last 2 years when you factor usage (and way better defensively).

Yikes.

 

[InfinityIggy]

Can confirm Backlund has a long stick and a soft touch.

 

[Some Other Flame]

Monahan's problem is fairly simple : he is just not that good. People around here have been saying it for many years, it's kind of baffling the people the Flames employ as a professional hockey franchise are seemingly blind to that fact.

Thing is, they might not all be. Recall, according to Burke the Flames were considering moving Monahan for Ristolainen some years ago but dropped it when Snow intervened due to the latter's terrible analytics. Then last off season, Steinberg stated Treliving had offered Monahan to Columbus in exchange for Anderson and one of their goalies. Then of course, the Rangers insider on their board here posted that a Monahan deal around Buchnevich, DeAngelo and perhaps some other pieces was being discussed before the latter's temper tantrum shut it down.

So it does seem like Treliving at least hasn't been all that keen on Monahan for some time. And that Columbus would choose Domi over him speaks volumes over his perception around the league.

But who knows what's wrong with the coaches who keep Monahan stapled to Gaudreau. Perhaps they fear the former would be exposed without the latter.

 

[CamPopplestone]

23 pts in 38 games. Pacing for 49 pts in 82.

Backs has 22 in 38 and is pacing for 47 in 82 games. That’s 3 of the last 5 yrs of comparable production, with backs arguably the more valuable offensive player the last 2 years when you factor usage (and way better defensively).

Yikes.

So mid level second line numbers.

 

[super6646]

So mid level second line numbers.

For the minutes he plays and getting top pp unit time that is godawful. Closer to 3rd line when u look at ES scoring.

 

[Dack]

Thing is, they might not all be. Recall, according to Burke the Flames were considering moving Monahan for Ristolainen some years ago but dropped it when Snow intervened due to the latter's terrible analytics. Then last off season, Steinberg stated Treliving had offered Monahan to Columbus in exchange for Anderson and one of their goalies. Then of course, the Rangers insider on their board here posted that a Monahan deal around Buchnevich, DeAngelo and perhaps some other pieces was being discussed before the latter's temper tantrum shut it down.

So it does seem like Treliving at least hasn't been all that keen on Monahan for some time. And that Columbus would choose Domi over him speaks volumes over his perception around the league.

But who knows what's wrong with the coaches who keep Monahan stapled to Gaudreau. Perhaps they fear the former would be exposed without the latter.

I agree. I think they've been trying to move him for a while now but other teams around the league are wise to what Monahan is and we aren't getting the return we want. Honestly unless there was an unmentioned big piece on our side Treliving should have pulled the trigger on that rangers deal. We could waive Tony (or maybe he never gets into a fight with a teammate here and we're able to flip him after a decent year) and then Buchnevich is just straight up a better player than Monahan at this point.

 

[Body Checker]

I wonder what it would do to move Monohan away from a playmaker and to shooters with speed and tenacity? Wingers like Palmieri and Pacioretty for example. I think Monohan is an underrated playmaker.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Monahan would land Domi++.

 

[Bond]

Monahan would land Domi++.

Monahan and Gaudreau for Domi and Laine

 

[JPeeper]

I just posted this on the main boards, but I'd keep Monahan going forward and groom him into a Backlund role (which Sutter is actually doing with him playing the PK and getting a ton of defensive zone starts). I mean we also have Lindholm who can be groomed for that, but ideally you groom Monahan for #2 center and put Lindholm on wing since he is a right shot and we have no right shots and you draft a stud centerman (Wright and/or Bedard; it won't happen I know).

I would also understand trading Monahan because you need to change the teams identity.

 

[Fig]

I just posted this on the main boards, but I'd keep Monahan going forward and groom him into a Backlund role (which Sutter is actually doing with him playing the PK and getting a ton of defensive zone starts). I mean we also have Lindholm who can be groomed for that, but ideally you groom Monahan for #2 center and put Lindholm on wing since he is a right shot and we have no right shots and you draft a stud centerman (Wright and/or Bedard; it won't happen I know).

I would also understand trading Monahan because you need to change the teams identity.

Sutter gonna groom eh? I guess that's one way of saying cut...

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

I just posted this on the main boards, but I'd keep Monahan going forward and groom him into a Backlund role (which Sutter is actually doing with him playing the PK and getting a ton of defensive zone starts). I mean we also have Lindholm who can be groomed for that, but ideally you groom Monahan for #2 center and put Lindholm on wing since he is a right shot and we have no right shots and you draft a stud centerman (Wright and/or Bedard; it won't happen I know).

I would also understand trading Monahan because you need to change the teams identity.

My worry with Monahan is his health. The last 20 or so games he’s basically been Matt Stajan for us. Something for sure is not right, that’s why it might be better to move him now and get what we can and keep Lindy for that role, who has a shot.

 

[HighLifeMan]

Moving Monahan now would be idiotic in my opinion. Recency bias indicates he's not worth his caphit, and in todays market that won't return you anything of significance. He's a much better player than these boards would lead you to believe, or that his value would currently indicate. I stand by that. Why he hasn't been shutdown for the season when he is struggling to even shoot the puck is beyond me. This team is out of it.

Look at the "top" lines splits this season without a complete anchor on the right side (Ritchie, Leivo, Simon and Bennett) and compare them to those of the brief times spent with one of Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, and Tkachuk. It's a night and day difference. In fact the statistically worst combination for them (Ritchie) has seen the most time with them. This organization has done a disservice to both Monahan and Gaudreau by trying to turn them into players they simply are not.

Everyone likes to point out how "Monahan's line" (its not his line, it's Gaudreau's btw..) get's cratered in at even strength when in reality he has only been outscored once in the past seven seasons at even strength over the course of a year, and has had a positive xG% in 3 of the past four seasons including this one. The top line was trending in an extremely positive and dominant direction prior to Ward taking over.

The top line statistically is giving up very little defensively, but it has come at the expense of the offense. That is what Treliving, Ward, and Sutter want(ed), and it was clearly the wrong call.

We are going to lose one or both of these players as a result of these decisions for less than they are worth and it's a friggen' shame.

 

[Johnny Hoxville]

Moving Monahan now would be idiotic in my opinion. Recency bias indicates he's not worth his caphit, and in todays market that won't return you anything of significance. He's a much better player than these boards would lead you to believe, or that his value would currently indicate. I stand by that. Why he hasn't been shutdown for the season when he is struggling to even shoot the puck is beyond me. This team is out of it.

Look at the "top" lines splits this season without a complete anchor on the right side (Ritchie, Leivo, Simon and Bennett) and compare them to those of the brief times spent with one of Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, and Tkachuk. It's a night and day difference. In fact the statistically worst combination for them (Ritchie) has seen the most time with them. This organization has done a disservice to both Monahan and Gaudreau by trying to turn them into players they simply are not.

Everyone likes to point out how "Monahan's line" (its not his line, it's Gaudreau's btw..) get's cratered in at even strength when in reality he has only been outscored once in the past seven seasons at even strength over the course of a year, and has had a positive xG% in 3 of the past four seasons including this one. The top line was trending in an extremely positive and dominant direction prior to Ward taking over.

The top line statistically is giving up very little defensively, but it has come at the expense of the offense. That is what Treliving, Ward, and Sutter want(ed), and it was clearly the wrong call.

We are going to lose one or both of these players as a result of these decisions for less than they are worth and it's a friggen' shame.

You made some excellent points. I am convinced.

 

[Tkachuk Norris]

Moving Monahan now would be idiotic in my opinion. Recency bias indicates he's not worth his caphit, and in todays market that won't return you anything of significance. He's a much better player than these boards would lead you to believe, or that his value would currently indicate. I stand by that. Why he hasn't been shutdown for the season when he is struggling to even shoot the puck is beyond me. This team is out of it.

Look at the "top" lines splits this season without a complete anchor on the right side (Ritchie, Leivo, Simon and Bennett) and compare them to those of the brief times spent with one of Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, and Tkachuk. It's a night and day difference. In fact the statistically worst combination for them (Ritchie) has seen the most time with them. This organization has done a disservice to both Monahan and Gaudreau by trying to turn them into players they simply are not.

Everyone likes to point out how "Monahan's line" (its not his line, it's Gaudreau's btw..) get's cratered in at even strength when in reality he has only been outscored once in the past seven seasons at even strength over the course of a year, and has had a positive xG% in 3 of the past four seasons including this one. The top line was trending in an extremely positive and dominant direction prior to Ward taking over.

The top line statistically is giving up very little defensively, but it has come at the expense of the offense. That is what Treliving, Ward, and Sutter want(ed), and it was clearly the wrong call.

We are going to lose one or both of these players as a result of these decisions for less than they are worth and it's a friggen' shame.

well said

 

[User1996]

Moving Monahan now would be idiotic in my opinion. Recency bias indicates he's not worth his caphit, and in todays market that won't return you anything of significance. He's a much better player than these boards would lead you to believe, or that his value would currently indicate. I stand by that. Why he hasn't been shutdown for the season when he is struggling to even shoot the puck is beyond me. This team is out of it.

Look at the "top" lines splits this season without a complete anchor on the right side (Ritchie, Leivo, Simon and Bennett) and compare them to those of the brief times spent with one of Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, and Tkachuk. It's a night and day difference. In fact the statistically worst combination for them (Ritchie) has seen the most time with them. This organization has done a disservice to both Monahan and Gaudreau by trying to turn them into players they simply are not.

Everyone likes to point out how "Monahan's line" (its not his line, it's Gaudreau's btw..) get's cratered in at even strength when in reality he has only been outscored once in the past seven seasons at even strength over the course of a year, and has had a positive xG% in 3 of the past four seasons including this one. The top line was trending in an extremely positive and dominant direction prior to Ward taking over.

The top line statistically is giving up very little defensively, but it has come at the expense of the offense. That is what Treliving, Ward, and Sutter want(ed), and it was clearly the wrong call.

We are going to lose one or both of these players as a result of these decisions for less than they are worth and it's a friggen' shame.

*Slow clapping rises into a standing ovation*

 

[RasmusAndersson]

I just posted this on the main boards, but I'd keep Monahan going forward and groom him into a Backlund role (which Sutter is actually doing with him playing the PK and getting a ton of defensive zone starts). I mean we also have Lindholm who can be groomed for that, but ideally you groom Monahan for #2 center and put Lindholm on wing since he is a right shot and we have no right shots and you draft a stud centerman (Wright and/or Bedard; it won't happen I know).

I would also understand trading Monahan because you need to change the teams identity.

With all due respect to Monahan he is a completely different player than Backlund and you can’t just turn players into different players entirely. Monahan is (supposed to be) a scoring C whose best asset by far is his wrist shot and slot play. Maybe I’m wrong and he goes through some crazy transformation into a defensive C who can match up against opposing top-6s but I would find that borderline impossible / a huge pipe dream. He isn’t a possession C and you don’t just go from a 26year-old 30-goal scoring C into a shutdown C like backlund. Those guys have to be groomed way younger and have a skill set that is conducive to it. We’ve tried to work on Monahan’s defensive game in recent years and if it hasn’t worked yet I’m not counting on it

 

[RasmusAndersson]

Moving Monahan now would be idiotic in my opinion. Recency bias indicates he's not worth his caphit, and in todays market that won't return you anything of significance. He's a much better player than these boards would lead you to believe, or that his value would currently indicate. I stand by that. Why he hasn't been shutdown for the season when he is struggling to even shoot the puck is beyond me. This team is out of it.

Look at the "top" lines splits this season without a complete anchor on the right side (Ritchie, Leivo, Simon and Bennett) and compare them to those of the brief times spent with one of Lindholm, Dube, Mangiapane, and Tkachuk. It's a night and day difference. In fact the statistically worst combination for them (Ritchie) has seen the most time with them. This organization has done a disservice to both Monahan and Gaudreau by trying to turn them into players they simply are not.

Everyone likes to point out how "Monahan's line" (its not his line, it's Gaudreau's btw..) get's cratered in at even strength when in reality he has only been outscored once in the past seven seasons at even strength over the course of a year, and has had a positive xG% in 3 of the past four seasons including this one. The top line was trending in an extremely positive and dominant direction prior to Ward taking over.

The top line statistically is giving up very little defensively, but it has come at the expense of the offense. That is what Treliving, Ward, and Sutter want(ed), and it was clearly the wrong call.

We are going to lose one or both of these players as a result of these decisions for less than they are worth and it's a friggen' shame.

While I totally agree our brutal coaching and management decisions are a huge shame and that the situation is less than ideal, I still really don't agree that Monahan doesn't drag down Gaudreau. 100% a guy like Ritchie or Leivo drags both of them down way more, but look at just Johnny and Money's splits. That is also night-and-day. Monahan without Johnny in almost 200 mins the last 2 years is 20% goals for, 40% xGF% and scoring chances for. He's been bruuuuuutal away from Johnny. That's probably a huge reason why we kept them together for so long and prayed they got hot so that his value rebounds a bit. Gaudreau should not be just a slightly above 50% goals for and chances for. That shouldn't be the goal for a top-15 winger in the league. He should be dominant. I don't disagree that we should consider keeping Monahan since his value may be at an all-time low, but it depends on the offer. I don't see him rebounding into a stud 30-goal scorer, I think he has consistently proven that over the past 2 years when he's been given every opportunity. And ESPECIALLY now that we're separating him and Gaudreau. If there is an offer for 1st+decent prospect or a similar RW (in package for Arvidsson, Garland, Reinhart, Laine, maybe Mantha), C, or D (like Dumba) I definitely don't think this is selling too low given that away from Gaudreau on the second line his production is bound to drop further. The composition of our top-9 is a major weakness - keeping Johnny and Money together doesn't work, stacking Lindholm on the top line gives us no middle-6, separating Johnny and Money will likely tank Money's value even further. There would be value in making one of those deals as I bet the rewards of the upside from one of those deals outweighs the risk that Monahan will suddenly return to 2018 form.

As for blaming the production for Johnny and Money's line on the coaches and management, I think that is pretty inaccurate as well. Those two are mostly to blame for regression and just simply are not skilled enough to be a great top-line. They needed to be more defensively responsible and there shouldn't be that offense/defense trade-off that you suggest. The best offence is good defence, being in position and taking advantage of opportunities. Being more defensively focused should not all of a sudden turn them into offensive black holes. And if it does that's a big issue with the player. I don't think there's a single coach that could've turned that around (except maybe Bob Hartley for one unsustainable year lolol). Having a slightly above 50% xG% and Goals for% from our top line with one of the top-15 wingers in the league is NOT the goal. We should expect way more, and that's why we're so stupidly mediocre. And last thing, I really don't get why everyone is so insistent that Monahan is injured. We are literally so bad that if he was injured there's no question we would shut him down. Seems like more of a convenient narrative to me, although anything is possible for sure.

I'm curious, if Monahan is kept away from Gaudreau, what do people expect his production to be like? I definitely believe that his value will just continue to drop (maybe a 20-25 goal, 50 point C with a lot of the production coming from PP) and that even selling 'low' right now might actually be the highest value he's gonna have. Of course I don't actually know the market and maybe teams have wised up already and would never consider one of those deals I mentioned, at which point ya I guess we keep him cause we're already screwed and the time to trade him was last off-season or earlier. What I'm most excited for is Gaudreau's game with Lindholm and Tkachuk. That's a real step in the right direction

 

[HighLifeMan]

While I totally agree our brutal coaching and management decisions are a huge shame and that the situation is less than ideal, I still really don't agree that Monahan doesn't drag down Gaudreau. 100% a guy like Ritchie or Leivo drags both of them down way more, but look at just Johnny and Money's splits. That is also night-and-day. Monahan without Johnny in almost 200 mins the last 2 years is 20% goals for, 40% xGF% and scoring chances for. He's been bruuuuuutal away from Johnny. That's probably a huge reason why we kept them together for so long and prayed they got hot so that his value rebounds a bit. Gaudreau should not be just a slightly above 50% goals for and chances for. That shouldn't be the goal for a top-15 winger in the league. He should be dominant. I don't disagree that we should consider keeping Monahan since his value may be at an all-time low, but it depends on the offer. I don't see him rebounding into a stud 30-goal scorer, I think he has consistently proven that over the past 2 years when he's been given every opportunity. And ESPECIALLY now that we're separating him and Gaudreau. If there is an offer for 1st+decent prospect or a similar RW (in package for Arvidsson, Garland, Reinhart, Laine, maybe Mantha), C, or D (like Dumba) I definitely don't think this is selling too low given that away from Gaudreau on the second line his production is bound to drop further. The composition of our top-9 is a major weakness - keeping Johnny and Money together doesn't work, stacking Lindholm on the top line gives us no middle-6, separating Johnny and Money will likely tank Money's value even further. There would be value in making one of those deals as I bet the rewards of the upside from one of those deals outweighs the risk that Monahan will suddenly return to 2018 form.

I can understand that line of thinking. This organization is in a tough spot, so I don't think these opinions are out of line. I just see differently when it comes to Monahan specifically. When these two have ever been briefly split up, it is Gaudreau who get's the legitimate linemates. In those 178 minutes, Johhny spent over 100 of them with Lindholm alone, while Monahan got a mishmash of players with Bennett being the most consistent linemate. Gaudreau's numbers across the board in those minutes also fell off albeit not to the same extent as he was playing with better players. I am interested to see what the Dube-Monahan-Mangiapane line can do. I can only hope that it is given an extended look, but again Johhny is getting a look with Lindholm and Tkachuk, and while that makes sense, he better produce significantly more than Monahan as they are significantly more talented. I agree that the composition of our top nine is an issue with the style of play they are being asked to play. We don't have the pieces to play that style of game, or to create the identity we are after. That is on Treliving and nobody else. I am not opposed to a hockey trade involving Monahan, I just don't think we will be able to find the correct piece due to his counting stats as of late, and the market being so heavily buyer friendly. A late 1st and a cap dump with term would be a horrible deal, and that's what I would expect the offers to be currently.

As for blaming the production for Johnny and Money's line on the coaches and management, I think that is pretty inaccurate as well. Those two are mostly to blame for regression and just simply are not skilled enough to be a great top-line. They needed to be more defensively responsible and there shouldn't be that offense/defense trade-off that you suggest. The best offence is good defence, being in position and taking advantage of opportunities. Being more defensively focused should not all of a sudden turn them into offensive black holes. And if it does that's a big issue with the player. I don't think there's a single coach that could've turned that around (except maybe Bob Hartley for one unsustainable year lolol). Having a slightly above 50% xG% and Goals for% from our top line with one of the top-15 wingers in the league is NOT the goal. We should expect way more, and that's why we're so stupidly mediocre. And last thing, I really don't get why everyone is so insistent that Monahan is injured. We are literally so bad that if he was injured there's no question we would shut him down. Seems like more of a convenient narrative to me, although anything is possible for sure.

I also don't agree with this. Statistically they formed one of the most productive duos in the NHL over an extended period of time (3-4 years), they didn't just lose that ability over night. The stats definitively show that the pair have shifted from a high event, highly productive brand of hockey, to a low event, boring, unproductive brand of hockey. This does not play to the strengths of their respective skillsets, and I am sure you can agree with that. I can't imagine that was by choice of the players, especially with Ward and Sutter specifically speaking to how they need to become better "two hundred" foot players.

I'm curious, if Monahan is kept away from Gaudreau, what do people expect his production to be like? I definitely believe that his value will just continue to drop and that even selling 'low' right now might actually be the highest value he's gonna have. Of course I don't actually know the market and maybe teams have wised up already and would never consider one of those deals I mentioned, at which point ya I guess we keep him cause we're already screwed and the time to trade him was last off-season or earlier. What I'm most excited for is Gaudreau's game with Lindholm and Tkachuk. That's a real step in the right direction

I would expect his even strength scoring to improve on where it is today. Those two simply can't create together given the restrictions they are playing under and that is blatantly clear to everyone. Johhny has one even strength point in his last 16 games.. and if you think that has more to do with Monahan than it does the style of play Sutter has them trying to play then we are further apart here than I thought. Both of these players have been heavily effected in a negative way by the organizations stance on becoming "tougher" to play against. I think it's just the easy thing to do for everyone to blame Monahan, and I don't agree with that.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

 

[Darth Vladar]

Bump.

 

[Ace Rimmer]

Bump.

Why?