Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

[NigerianNightmare]

Gretzky had a number of flaws: his skating, his physicality, his two-way play. All the things that Bowman loved in Howe.

Gretzky made up for all those flaws in spades and oodles but I guess that wasn't good enough for Bowman.

And I don't rank Orr as high sheerly for the body of work. Gretzky has twice as many Cups and three times as many Hartsas Orr. He certainly was not beaten to the Hart by his own teammate... twice.

But he was beaten to the Hart by his former teammate...twice

 

[The Macho King]

Gretzky had a number of flaws: his skating, his physicality, his two-way play. All the things that Bowman loved in Howe.

Gretzky made up for all those flaws in spades and oodles but I guess that wasn't good enough for Bowman.

And I don't rank Orr as high simply for his body of work. Gretzky has twice as many Cups and three times as many Hartsas Orr. He certainly was not beaten to the Hart by his own teammate... twice.

Orr was a defenseman. He didn't even win the Hart when he - as a defenseman - won the Art Ross.

Sometimes voters are idiots. No one - not even Espo - would say he deserved those Harts over Orr.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Gretzky's skating was sublime. He just didn't look as good as others doing it. Show me a player who could turn like he could, control the puck, avoid a check and find an open man. Ok, Orr.

 

[JackSlater]

Orr was a defenseman. He didn't even win the Hart when he - as a defenseman - won the Art Ross.

Sometimes voters are idiots. No one - not even Espo - would say he deserved those Harts over Orr.

Wouldn't say that there is any problem with Esposito's 1969 Hart, but the 1974 Hart is an obvious joke of a result. It's not exactly shocking when the Hart goes to someone who is obviously not the best or even most valuable player in the league, but that's one of the very worst results ever.

 

[The Macho King]

Wouldn't say that there is any problem with Esposito's 1969 Hart, but the 1974 Hart is an obvious joke of a result. It's not exactly shocking when the Hart goes to someone who is obviously not the best or even most valuable player in the league, but that's one of the very worst results ever.

My brain was more on the 75 Hart than the 69, but yeah.

 

[JackSlater]

My brain was more on the 75 Hart than the 69, but yeah.

It's a tired argument that gets trotted out as some smoking gun against Orr when really it just works makes the Hart voters look bad. I can get the 1973 Hart when Orr missed a quarter of the season. I can even sort of understand the thinking with the 1975 Hart even if I disagree. 1974 has no reasonable explanation. 1969, sure Esposito around his peak can justifiably be picked over Orr as he is about to enter his prime.

 

[wetcoast]

...or Bowman probably understands hockey better than all of us here on the Boards.

He very well might but it's not because of that list, it's all of the other stuff.

take the list and look at it and seriously tell us there aren't serious problems with that list.

 

[Overrated]

What's Bowman's explanation for ranking Maurice Richard over Lemieux and Gretzky? Also, what's his explanation for ranking Gretzky down in 5th?

He is from Quebec.

 

[The Panther]

I completely agree with Esposito's 1969 Hart trophy.

I also completely agree with Clarke's 1975 Hart trophy.

But the 1974 Hart was wrong. That should definitely have been Orr.

(An odd one is 1973, which went to Clarke, also. That's that odd first season of WHA co-existence, and clubs like Boston were weakened a bit. Orr and Esposito fell off the pace a bit -- Orr was "down" only 4th-best plus/minus, and missed some games -- and Clarke was 2nd in scoring. That's one of those season where about five or six players equally deserved the Hart.)

 

[Overrated]

Gretzky had a number of flaws: his skating, his physicality, his two-way play. All the things that Bowman loved in Howe.

Gretzky made up for all those flaws in spades and oodles but I guess that wasn't good enough for Bowman.

And I don't rank Orr as high simply for his body of work. Gretzky has twice as many Cups and three times as many Hartsas Orr. He certainly was not beaten to the Hart by his own teammate... twice.

I've just watched some Gretzky's highlights and it seems to me like his skating movement was more of his strong side if anything. Very agile for such a tall guy.

 

[The Panther]

I've just watched some Gretzky's highlights and it seems to me like his skating movement was more of his strong side if anything. Very agile for such a tall guy.

Young Gretzky wasn't the fastest guy going in a straight line from 'A' to 'B', but his agility and ability to cut and turn was second to none. He was just way better at that in the early-80s, when not as many forwards could do it. I've really never seen a player (until maybe after the Lock Out when technology improved, yada yada) who could turn on a dime as sharply as Gretzky did, in full control of the puck.

For foot speed, check out this goal from the '83 playoffs, at the old Corral in Calgary:

Gretzky races back on the back-check, strips the Flame player of the puck, plays it through another player's legs in transition to offence (most players would never dare try that in practice, let alone a playoff game), and then races down the ice with the puck. Does this guy look less than fast to anyone?

As to the 'cut-and-turn', this 1985 goal vs. Kelly Hrudey and the Islanders demonstrates it well. The goal itself is kind of cheap as Wayne's shot bounces off an Islander and fools Hrudey, but check out his agility and how easily he shakes Lafontaine with his turn:


Also, it's interesting you say "for such a tall guy". Gretzky was only, what, six feet tall at most? In that Facing Wayne Gretzky book from a few years back, a couple of the players noted that he was taller than they thought he was when they got on the ice with him.

 

[Overrated]

Young Gretzky wasn't the fastest guy going in a straight line from 'A' to 'B', but his agility and ability to cut and turn was second to none. He was just way better at that in the early-80s, when not as many forwards could do it. I've really never seen a player (until maybe after the Lock Out when technology improved, yada yada) who could turn on a dime as sharply as Gretzky did, in full control of the puck.

For foot speed, check out this goal from the '83 playoffs, at the old Corral in Calgary:

Gretzky races back on the back-check, strips the Flame player of the puck, plays it through another player's legs in transition to offence (most players would never dare try that in practice, let alone a playoff game), and then races down the ice with the puck. Does this guy look less than fast to anyone?

As to the 'cut-and-turn', this 1985 goal vs. Kelly Hrudey and the Islanders demonstrates it well. The goal itself is kind of cheap as Wayne's shot bounces off an Islander and fools Hrudey, but check out his agility and how easily he shakes Lafontaine with his turn:


Also, it's interesting you say "for such a tall guy". Gretzky was only, what, six feet tall at most? In that Facing Wayne Gretzky book from a few years back, a couple of the players noted that he was taller than they thought he was when they got on the ice with him.

Oh wow I have always been under the impression he was like 6'2-6'3.

 

[VanIslander]

Was Howe a better skater than Gretzky...? That wasn't my experience.

Then you weren't there.

Gretz said famously the only two things he didn't do great was skate and shoot. He smirked. But he wasn't kidding. He always worked on his slapshot and was not satisfied. He deked and pulled up short because - as he has said - he couldn't skate faster forward than good dmen backward.

Everything great about Gretzky is between the ears (and i would add: instinct... playing against bigger guys continually in youth hockey breeds spidey sense - that's big guy Mario's achilles heel, as a mere 5'11 Lithuanian dman repeatedly knocked his head off, he asking his team to acquire the guy, to stop it).

 

[Minar]

Then you weren't there.

Gretz said famously the only two things he didn't do great was skate and shoot. He smirked. But he wasn't kidding. He always worked on his slapshot and was not satisfied. He deked and pulled up short because - as he has said - he couldn't skate faster forward than good dmen backward.

Everything great about Gretzky is between the ears (and i would add: instinct... playing against bigger guys continually in youth hockey breeds spidey sense - that's big guy Mario's achilles heel, as a mere 5'11 Lithuanian dman repeatedly knocked his head off, he asking his team to acquire the guy, to stop it).

Everything Gretzky says about himself for whatever reason has to be taken with a grain of salt. He was a exceptional skater in his prime. Maybe not in a straight line, but his ability was exceptional.

 

[VanIslander]

Gretzky was choppy and the last to the line in drills.

But give him rhe puck and he put it exactly where he wanted when he wanted.

He was called a drowned rat but a mighty mouse.

 

[Michael Farkas]

We don't need all the nonsense that Gretzky said...we have a ton of video of both Howe and Gretzky...

 

[VanIslander]

Indeed.

Just look at Gretzky. He pulls up short, doesn't blow past defenders. He lingers behind nets, he slapshots early rather than skates to the net.

He is as he says he is.

Howe however is a Tasmanian Devil on one skate and one hand on the stick.

 

[JackSlater]

Indeed.

Just look at Gretzky. He pulls up short, doesn't blow past defenders. He lingers behind nets, he slapshots early rather than skates to the net.

He is as he says he is.

Howe however is a Tasmanian Devil on one skate and one hand on the stick.

You're right - Gretzky did avoid contact.

 

[Sentinel]

But he was beaten to the Hart by his former teammate...twice

The key word is "former." Messier always played second fiddle to Gretzky. After NINE Harts, finally, the fatigue settled in.

Orr was a defenseman. He didn't even win the Hart when he - as a defenseman - won the Art Ross.

Sometimes voters are idiots. No one - not even Espo - would say he deserved those Harts over Orr.

It doesn't matter what Espo would say. He won the Hart over Orr twice. And neither of those times were steals. Espo was phenomenal.

 

[Sentinel]

Gretzky's skating was sublime. He just didn't look as good as others doing it. Show me a player who could turn like he could, control the puck, avoid a check and find an open man. Ok, Orr.

Datsyuk.

 

[VanIslander]

Datsyuk.

Indeed.

A 5'10 center in the NHL has to have his head on a swivel, a spidey sense.

Mario and Lindros had their clocks cleaned repeatedly in the NHL because they grew up the big guy on the ice and didn't have to watch out.

 

[Sentinel]

Indeed.

A 5'10 center in the NHL has to have his head on a swivel, a spidey sense.

Mario and Lindros had their clocks cleaned repeatedly in the NHL because they grew up the big guy on the ice and didn't have to watch out.

Makes sense.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Indeed.

A 5'10 center in the NHL has to have his head on a swivel, a spidey sense.

Mario and Lindros had their clocks cleaned repeatedly in the NHL because they grew up the big guy on the ice and didn't have to watch out.

No Gretzky was protected by the league and his police officer while lenieux never had such protection. Let's be real

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

No Gretzky was protected by the league and his police officer while lenieux never had such protection. Let's be real

Can't hit what you can't catch.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Can't hit what you can't catch.

They also played two different styles. Mario's game was a skilled/finesse bull. Gretzky was a Jedi chess player. Similar results but different paths taken