Scotty Bowman's Top 100 Canadian Players

[JackSlater]

I don't think it matters a whole lot for Gretzky's legacy if Makarov was the one to finish a distant second to him in scoring a few seasons rather than Kurri or Stastny.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

This is one of the crazier posts I've seen in a while...

What is with this board's fixation on the 1990s as the "European influx"?

There were only around 581 NHL players (who played 5 games or more) in 1988-89, vs. about 800 in 2019-20. So any discussion of raw numbers (of European players) needs to take into account League-wide size.

Anyway, I doubt there was a lot of high caliber talent outside the NHL during Gretzky's peak in the early/mid-80s, aside from the obvious (a half-dozen elite Soviets, and Dominik Hasek). Care to name some of these high-talents?

The idea that Gretzky's production decreased because of more European competition is utterly ludicrous. For starters, look at the 1978 World Juniors, the 1981 Canada Cup, the 1982 World Championships, the 1984 Canada Cup, the 1987 Canada Cup, and the 1991 Canada Cup. Who led every one of these tournaments in scoring? Oh yeah, Wayne Gretzky.

Even in his Edmonton days only, Gretzky shared the NHL with:
Peter Stastny
Anton Stastny
Marian Stastny
Jari Kurri
Kent Nilsson
Thomas Gradin
Mats Naslund
Bengt-Ake Gustafsson
Patrick Sundstrom
Borje Salming
Ilkka Sinisalo
Risto Siltanen
Hakan Loob
Reijo Ruotsalainen
Willy Lindstrom
Anders Hedberg
Miroslav Frycer
Tomas Jonsson
Tomas Sandstrom

...just to name the most obvious, higher-scorers. Here's how he did, based on per-game (min. 160 games played) scoring stats, vs. these all-Euro guys:

Points per game
2.40 Gretzky
1.49 P. Stastny
1.41 Kurri
1.25 Nilsson
1.04 Naslund
1.01 A. Stastny
0.93 Loob
0.91 M. Stastny
0.91 Sandstrom
0.90 Gradin

Projected to an 80-game season:
192 Gretzky
119 Stastny
113 Kurri
100 Nilsson
83 Naslund
Etc.

My question is: From 1979-80 through 1987-88, who were these fabulous European players, missing from the NHL, who were going to come and challenge Gretzky's dominance? As mentioned, there were a few Soviets who were clearly at all-star NHL level then (the obvious ones), but it's not like any of them were even 90-point scorers when they did make the NHL (albeit under strange circumstances), so I have a hard time seeing Makarov or Krutov as consistently outscoring Stastny, let alone Gretzky.

Then, in Wayne's first 5 seasons in L.A (which includes two post-prime seasons when he was no longer "Gretzky")., during which ex-Soviets and even more Europeans were in the League, this is how it breaks down (min. 120 games played):

Points per game
1.84 Gretzky (Mario is the only player topping him, though playing 122 fewer games)
1.38 Selanne
1.24 Bure
1.19 Fedorov
1.18 Mogilny
1.11 Zhamnov
1.07 Kurri
1.03 Sundin
1.03 Jagr
1.02 Sandstrom

Projected to an 82-game season:
155 Gretzky
113 Selanne
102 Bure
98 Fedorov
97 Mogilny

In the 1993 L.A.-Vancouver playoff series (Van was the favorite to win), Gretzky, five or six years past his peak period, completely outclassed Bure, outscoring him 13 points to 5 (and 6 to 1 in goals scored). Even in the 1996 St. Louis-Detroit series, Gretzky easily outscored Fedorov -- in his prime and on one of the more dominant clubs in history -- though Lidstrom had a strong series and matched Wayne in points.

One of those hilarious "there is no life outside the NHL" posts.

You clearly underestimate the level of the Soviet and Czechoslovakian hockey of the 80s. Either you're too young or you haven't watched much of international hockey in that era.

Half a dozen Soviets ? If that was true, the USSR wouldn't be going toe to toe in the best on best tournaments against Canada. The Soviet clubs wouldn't have won most games against the NHL clubs in the Super series of the 80s.

Gretzky's individual stats were terrific but he wasn't the Michael Jordan of hockey. Outscoring Fedorov who focused a lot on defence isn't a big deal, especially when the stacked Blues lost the series.

Outscoring the sophomore Bure who played on a weaker team isn't surprising either.

On the contrary, Gretzky was badly outscored by Shepelev at the 1981 Canada Cup, by the way. One of those "second rate" Europeans, you know... Well, even young Larionov looked better than Gretzky in the 1981 final.

Players like Krutov and Makarov were a level above Stastny (who would be the 2nd line centre at best on the Soviet team). They came to the NHL when they were past their prime.

My advice is spend more time revising the international hockey of the 80s. Because it's the main reason the NHL became a truly world class professional league in the next decade

 

[The Panther]

My advice is spend more time revising the international hockey of the 80s.

No thanks, I think you've revised it enough...