flyershockey
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- Oct 10, 2006
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And if that's the case, then that's fine. Not all GM's like the same players. It still doesn't change the fact that their options were limited when they intially re-signed him.
Confirmed with Link: Scott Hartnell Traded to CBJ For RJ Umberger and 2015 4th Round Pick
- Thread starter BillDineen
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And if that's the case, then that's fine. Not all GM's like the same players. It still doesn't change the fact that their options were limited when they intially re-signed him.
Eh, still a stretch to find someone to blame. I guess you are complaining about the drafts before Homer started trading away the draft picks? 2009 was really when the picks started to fly, the drafts before that guys were drafted and didn't pan out or were traded. The best example would be that they traded JvR, a guy who could have replaced the Hartnell, the draft picks really aren't that impactful if you look at what was there, who was drafted, seeing as how no one is really showing that they could have stepped up. I'd rather have Hartnell at his cap hit than a bunch of crappy prospects who still aren't in the NHL (see: players taken in 2009 and 2010 int he first couple rounds where the Flyers would have been picking).
2009 everyone complains that they would have drafted John Moore in the first round, so its not like they were going to take a potential goal scoring winger there. Similarly, in the second round that year there wasn't much there to replace Hartnell. 2010 maybe they draft a guy like Etem who is right now starting to look like he has a shot to be a decent NHLer, but certainly wasn't ready to replace Hartnell or even step in as a regular at the time the contract was signed. In 2010 they did draft Tye McGinn, who looked like he could have been a replacement, but he hasn't panned out. In more recent years, the drafting has been better and there have been more picks, but those guys aren't really going to have an impact to the point of making Hartnell expendable.
Beef Invictus
Revolutionary Positivity
The picks started to fly almost immediately, as well as prospects. As I recall, homer at one point had traded 5 years worth of first round picks and prospects away, and that's just without factoring other picks. So, yeah. Its Homer's fault.
Embiid
Off IR for now
Are you two going to start this up again? Didn't I squash the last one with Holmgren's own words admitting they were too liberal with their picks and it had to end which subsequently did the last two drafts where we got a bunch of D men that hopefully pan out so we don't have to chase and overpay FA D men!
that future is a long ways away, other players will be gone by then, and Hartnell doesn't have an 8m hit.
Vinny makes 10x more sense as a cap dump. The guy didn't fit in on the ice.
We've gone from a guy that can at least do "something" on the first line to hoping we have someone to play 1st line wing.
It makes far more sense to tell me Hextall didn't like Harts as a player.
BringBackHakstol
Registered User
The primary cause of bad contracts is almost always bad drafting and development. GM's generally aren't idiots that sign superfluous contracts. Most are out of necessity, but it's their own lack of planning and foresight that creates that need.
deadhead
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- Feb 26, 2014
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The real problem is understanding that cap room is a limited commodity, Holmgren never got it, Hextall does. Players peak around 26-27 then slowly decline until their early 30s, and tend to fall off the cliff around age 33-34. So you never want contracts with big money in the "out" years, i.e., after age 32. So while McDonald is overpaid, if the young defensemen step up in 2-3 years, he has a movable contract since at 30 he'll be on a 3 year $15M contract in 2016-17, at which time that won't seem outrageous.
The problem with Hartnell's deal is twofold:
1) he's overpaid period, yeah, he's averaged 27g/56p the last three full seasons, but that was age 29-32, but that's all he can do, can't play on a checking line, can't play anything but wing, etc. And he's a horrible playoff performer, entire Flyer career, 72 games, 16g/41p, last 29 games, 4g/15p, and you don't pay big bucks to players who are MIA in April and May. And no, Holmgren isn't the only stupid GM out there, TB just signed Callahan, who'll turn 30 this season, to a 6 year, $34.8M deal. In his peak years, he's a 25g/50p forward - what about 3 years from now? Last 36 playoff games, 8g/15p.
2) He turns 33 this year on a 5 year deal, so he's nearing the career cliff with lot's of money left.
Umbarger is probably a 15g/30p 3rd/4th line winger the next two years before they buy him out. Hartnell is probably a 20g/40p player the next two years before he falls off the cliff and is basically a power play specialist who rarely sees the ice. Hartnell is the better player, but not that much better, and he'd be a huge cap albatross in 2 years.
The real issue is to avoid these contracts in the first place, they had to buy their way out of two of them, trade their way out of Hartnell, and now they're trying to figure out how to dump Vinny. When guys like Matt Read can come in and outproduce high priced veterans you can see the value in cultivating a pipeline of young, cheap talent.
Hextall needs to both take out the garbage, but also plant the victory garden.
The problem with Hartnell's deal is twofold:
1) he's overpaid period, yeah, he's averaged 27g/56p the last three full seasons, but that was age 29-32, but that's all he can do, can't play on a checking line, can't play anything but wing, etc. And he's a horrible playoff performer, entire Flyer career, 72 games, 16g/41p, last 29 games, 4g/15p, and you don't pay big bucks to players who are MIA in April and May. And no, Holmgren isn't the only stupid GM out there, TB just signed Callahan, who'll turn 30 this season, to a 6 year, $34.8M deal. In his peak years, he's a 25g/50p forward - what about 3 years from now? Last 36 playoff games, 8g/15p.
2) He turns 33 this year on a 5 year deal, so he's nearing the career cliff with lot's of money left.
Umbarger is probably a 15g/30p 3rd/4th line winger the next two years before they buy him out. Hartnell is probably a 20g/40p player the next two years before he falls off the cliff and is basically a power play specialist who rarely sees the ice. Hartnell is the better player, but not that much better, and he'd be a huge cap albatross in 2 years.
The real issue is to avoid these contracts in the first place, they had to buy their way out of two of them, trade their way out of Hartnell, and now they're trying to figure out how to dump Vinny. When guys like Matt Read can come in and outproduce high priced veterans you can see the value in cultivating a pipeline of young, cheap talent.
Hextall needs to both take out the garbage, but also plant the victory garden.
I don't think you sign a bridge guy to a 6 yr, nearly 5m per deal before FA begins.
Homer signed him because he thought he was part of the core.
flyershockey
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So just **** it, don't even give yourself a shot?
The player taken in 2009 with our first round pick was Kyle Palmieri, who would have been a nice option to have last offseason to have when determining whether or not to re-sign Hartnell.
Yeah, except no one wants Vinny. I imagine that he's gone as well as soon as they can find a taker.
I'm sorry, I just can't believe that with the hype around him last year.
Vinny for a 7th. Cap savings. Floor teams would have NO problem with his deal.
Not what I am saying at all. You are saying the lack of draft picks led to Hartnell having to get those extra two years. I said that is not the case given that during the years the Flyers traded away their high value picks, it is either heavily speculated that the Flyers would have picked a defenseman, or the forwards in the area aren't very good and not real options to be NHL regulars. As I said, a better argument you could make is trading JvR, though I think that happened after he signed the contract.
2009 pick went to Anaheim who traded it to CBJ who took John Moore. Palmieri was taken by the Ducks with the pick they got from CBJ. Perhaos they would have taken Palmieri, but that is far from a guarantee.
Striiker
Earthquake Survivor
... I'm sure they just haven't add it yet, but it'd be interesting if this was deliberate and they're going to flip him for a pick or something. Obviously if that were the plan they wouldn't have been talking about him fitting into the roster ect., seems like another case of media wanting there to be a story where the isn't one.
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
I doubt it's anything, but Dan Hamhuis said some garbage when the Flyers acquired his rights that he didn't mean. Umberger will stay though.
Hartnell definitely isn't a guy you should expect to hit 30 goals. Aside from one season, he barely managed to do it here and we've always had great offenses and top tier to elite centers (Richards in his prime, Carter, Giroux namely). Getting older and going to an inferior team in terms of top-end scoring talent, hell no.
Ryan Johansen. 33 goals, 30 assists at age 21 this year. And he plays a 200 foot game. One of the smartest young players in the league.
But yeah, it seems unlikely he hits 30 goals again. There are fewer players every year that hit that mark.
healthyscratch
Registered User
One season and nowhere near as good as Giroux or even Carter/Richards when they were here and after him there's a pretty huge drop-off in star scoring power.
So I don't see how that changes what I said.
Protest
C`est La Vie
We all know Hartnell should be good for a little over 20 goals and a little over 40 points this year. We all also know that he is actually going to score 32 goals and 65 points because that's how life ****in works when you're a Philly fan.
I thought you said that they didn't have top end scoring talent, but I see you now said they have inferior top end talent. Guess I misread it. I just believe that Johansen is on his way to becoming a great player, and if Hartnell plays with him, then yeah, he's playing with top end talent. He's not as good as Giroux is right now, but he's not just some scrub.
Embiid
Off IR for now
Bigleaf
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- Jun 21, 2008
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Scott Hartnell fights back tears returning to Flyers' practice rink
Hartnell knows he'll miss everything about Philadelphia – the city, the fans, his teammates.
At the end of the day I’ll never talk bad about this city,†Hartnell said.
Hartnell says that when he first was approached about the trade last Wednesday that he "thought Hexy was having a bad day." He needed five days to decide what to do. On Sunday, he decided to go to Columbus, then he told the Flyers the next day.
"I don't know if it's totally sunk in yet," Hartnell said. "I think I was surprised, shocked, angry the first few days when I got the call a week ago. I said, 'I don't want to leave, plain and simple. I like our team. I like our guys. I'm comfortable here. This is my home.' (Hextall) made it pretty clear that they were going in a different direction, which is fine."
http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2014/06/scott_hartnell_fights_back_tears_in_emotional_return_to_flyers_practice_rink_2_days_after_trade_to_c.html
Hartnell knows he'll miss everything about Philadelphia – the city, the fans, his teammates.
At the end of the day I’ll never talk bad about this city,†Hartnell said.
Hartnell says that when he first was approached about the trade last Wednesday that he "thought Hexy was having a bad day." He needed five days to decide what to do. On Sunday, he decided to go to Columbus, then he told the Flyers the next day.
"I don't know if it's totally sunk in yet," Hartnell said. "I think I was surprised, shocked, angry the first few days when I got the call a week ago. I said, 'I don't want to leave, plain and simple. I like our team. I like our guys. I'm comfortable here. This is my home.' (Hextall) made it pretty clear that they were going in a different direction, which is fine."
http://www.nj.com/flyers/index.ssf/2014/06/scott_hartnell_fights_back_tears_in_emotional_return_to_flyers_practice_rink_2_days_after_trade_to_c.html
Harold Bingo
what
Poor Hartnell. Gonna miss his shenanigans for sure.- Status
