San Francisco for the NHL

[rgb63]

I don't agree that just because an area has more people, chances are there's more hockey fans.

Not right off the bat, but over a long period of time? There is absolutely a chance that a more populous area will generate more hockey fans when compared to a "traditional" market, especially when looking at such huge population differences. To say otherwise would be approaching "homer" territory.

 

[Semantics]

The number of people in a location isn't relevant. It's the number of fans willing to shell out hard earned money that's relevant.

You realize this argument only ADDS support for a fourth California team, right?

California is one of the richest places in the world, with most of the wealth concentrated in the cities along the coast. The state has 700,000+ millionaire households. In fact, CA is home to nearly 10% of the world's millionaires. Canada has almost as many people as California, but only has 160,000 millionaire households.

San Diego alone has over 100,000 millionaires. It's not unreasonable at all to think the NHL would work there. For a household making $200k+ per year (this is not uncommon), forking over $200 for a pair of tickets to a hockey game just isn't a big deal like it would be in, say, Winnipeg. Even in Toronto, which is my hometown and one of the most wealthy cities in Canada, typical household income is nowhere close to what it is here.

That said, I definitely think a 2nd Toronto area team (Hamilton or elsewhere) is a much stronger business proposition at the moment, one team isn't anywhere close to adequate for a region of 8 million people where hockey is #1 by far and the populace has such an incredible passion for the game. But a 4th California team isn't a bad idea. I'd say it's about as viable as Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Fans in California aren't shelling out "hard earned money" to go to hockey games. They're shelling out pocket change.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

I think there was a study (of questionable veracity) a few years back about 49ers season ticket holders which showed that many came from south. But that includes the peninsula, too. As for the Giants, I think they have caught on all over Northern California so that sounds like a bunk statement, saying that their fanbase is mainly from the South Bay.

But I do agree that in SF city limits, there are far fewer sports fans than typical of a city that size/prominence.

Well, I didn't say that, and I don't really buy it.

There's plenty of sports fans in San Francisco. The city averaged a 35.3/61 (which tells you how many people watched in groups) for the World Series. That's comparable to Philly and Boston in past World Series. The idea that the South Bay is the bulk of season ticket holders doesn't pass the smell test, unless this is because Google/Apple is buying 500 season tickets or something. I've seen the rush for Caltrain after games - and there aren't that many people participating in it.

SF's got a lot of transplants, but the idea this is a crappy sports town doesn't really stand up. This is probably the only city on the West Coast that still holds a torch for its PCL team, it's got a pretty vibrant high school sports scene and it went certifiably bonkers for the Giants last year.

I can buy the idea that San Mateo and Santa Clara counties combined outstrip San Francisco in Giants season ticket sales, but
The City cares about its teams..just the Sharks and Warriors aren't those teams, and probably won't be unless they moved to San Francisco. Something I'm sure most San Joseans shudder at.

As for the Niners, their season ticket base is definitely focused more down the Peninsula. That's an older season ticket base, one I could definitely envision having moved to the suburbs.

I can't speak to absolute numbers, but I have heard statements on the radio (KQED's Forum, IIRC) from Giants' a spokesperson in defending the Giants' territorial rights to the Santa Clara County that there are more Giants STHs from Santa Clara than San Francisco (or any of the 9 other Bay Area counties).

Like I said...I'd love to see the proof. It doesn't really pass the smell test to me. It'd be difficult to fight your way up 101 or 280 to the ballpark for those 7 pm games, and there's not a lot of empty seats at the ballpark lately. Santa Clara County is the economic base of the region, so I'm sure the Giants have plenty of rea$on$ to defend SCC, but I am very skeptical they are providing more STHs than any other county in the BA.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

That rating is for the Nielsen DMA isn't it? And that's joint SF-Oakland-San Jose.

 

[HabsByTheBay]

That rating is for the Nielsen DMA isn't it? And that's joint SF-Oakland-San Jose.

Nope, San Francisco and San Francisco alone.

Edit: Checked again..you are right, it's the TV market.

 

[Wee Baby Seamus]

Yeah, but San Francisco is the anchor of the metropolitan area. Of course there are more people in the satellite cities and suburbs, because San Francisco proper is really small, but it hasn't stopped people from going to Giants/49ers games.

The San Francisco city proper is around 700 000. That isn't that small. And San Jose isn't a great size bigger at around 900 000.

 

[Killion]

San Francisco's hockey history goes way back to 1929, with teams in the California Hockey League & PCHL etc, so its really a rather intriguing idea. As a few of the current & ex-pat natives have stated, foootball's A' number 1' (at the moment) and many dont seem to feel you'd get enough interest to sellout consistently. I beg to differ; I think San Francisco would do extremely well, and rather than hurting San Jose' would actually help with a local rivalry. Id also go to Portland before Seattle, but thats another thread.....

 

[HabsByTheBay]

The San Francisco city proper is around 700 000. That isn't that small. And San Jose isn't a great size bigger at around 900 000.

About 800,000 and 945,000, actually.

The difference between the two is space. SJ is about 149 square miles, while San Francisco is, famously, 7x7...

There's tons of underdeveloped areas in SJ, while San Francisco is, if not totally maxed out, pretty close to being developed totally.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

Do the Sharks get good support from Marin, Sonoma, Napa counties or is that "San Jose..pfft who cares, that's like 70 miles from here" territory?

 

[kdb209]

The San Francisco city proper is around 700 000. That isn't that small. And San Jose isn't a great size bigger at around 900 000.

The South Bay has ~2x the population of San Francisco.

2010 US Census Numbers:

San Francisco: 805,235

San Jose: 945,942
Santa Clara County: 1,781,642

 

[LadyStanley]

Do the Sharks get good support from Marin, Sonoma, Napa counties or is that "San Jose..pfft who cares, that's like 70 miles from here" territory?

And further north along the coast as well.

I've seen folks from Eureka, Humboldt/Del Norte counties at the games. (Groups mind you, have gotten bus loads down to the games.)

Sharks have essentially "claimed" mid- to upper- (Oregon border) California. And some of Nevada (Reno) and even some of Oregon.

 

[kdb209]

Do the Sharks get good support from Marin, Sonoma, Napa counties or is that "San Jose..pfft who cares, that's like 70 miles from here" territory?

The vast majority of the Sharks fan base comes from 4 counties: Santa Clara, San Mateo, San Francisco, and Alameda - although I do know STHs from Marin, Contra Costa, & Santa Cruz (quite a few).

 

[kdb209]

And further north along the coast as well.

I've seen folks from Eureka, Humboldt/Del Norte counties at the games. (Groups mind you, have gotten bus loads down to the games.)

Sharks have essentially "claimed" mid- to upper- (Oregon border) California. And some of Nevada (Reno) and even some of Oregon.

The Sharks Radio Network covers from Eureka/Redding down to Fresno.

California / San Jose // FLAGSHIP

* KUFX 98.5 FM
* KDFC 102.1 FM


// AFFILIATES

* KAHI 950 AM / Auburn
* KFPT 790 AM / Clovis
* KATA 1340 AM / Eureka
* KFIG 1430 AM / Fresno
* KRKC 1490 AM / King City
* KXBX 1270 AM / Lakeport
* KESP 970 AM / Modesto
* KVON 1440 AM / Napa
* KKXS 96.1 FM / Redding
* KHTK 1440 AM / Sacramento (selected games)
* KNCI 105.1 FM / Sacramento
* KOMY 1340 AM / Santa Cruz
* KKDV 92.1 FM / Walnut Creek

 

[Steelhead16]

You realize this argument only ADDS support for a fourth California team, right?

California is one of the richest places in the world, with most of the wealth concentrated in the cities along the coast. The state has 700,000+ millionaire households. In fact, CA is home to nearly 10% of the world's millionaires. Canada has almost as many people as California, but only has 160,000 millionaire households.

San Diego alone has over 100,000 millionaires. It's not unreasonable at all to think the NHL would work there. For a household making $200k+ per year (this is not uncommon), forking over $200 for a pair of tickets to a hockey game just isn't a big deal like it would be in, say, Winnipeg. Even in Toronto, which is my hometown and one of the most wealthy cities in Canada, typical household income is nowhere close to what it is here.

That said, I definitely think a 2nd Toronto area team (Hamilton or elsewhere) is a much stronger business proposition at the moment, one team isn't anywhere close to adequate for a region of 8 million people where hockey is #1 by far and the populace has such an incredible passion for the game. But a 4th California team isn't a bad idea. I'd say it's about as viable as Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Fans in California aren't shelling out "hard earned money" to go to hockey games. They're shelling out pocket change.

San Diego has never been a great supporter of it's sports teams and it has a strange population. 2/3 of San Diego's population is either under 30 or over 60. Neither of those two demos are great for selling hockey tickets. And the people with the money are closer to the 60 mark and aren't looking to go to hockey games. 2009 was the worst attendance for the Padres since 1995 at the Murph. And the Chargers were in the bottom 10 of NFL attendance last year and they draw football fans from all of SoCal and not just San Diego. San Diego will never support an NHL team even if they had a building that would accomodate one, which they don't.

 

[obsenssive*]

You realize this argument only ADDS support for a fourth California team, right?

California is one of the richest places in the world, with most of the wealth concentrated in the cities along the coast. The state has 700,000+ millionaire households. In fact, CA is home to nearly 10% of the world's millionaires. Canada has almost as many people as California, but only has 160,000 millionaire households.

San Diego alone has over 100,000 millionaires. It's not unreasonable at all to think the NHL would work there. For a household making $200k+ per year (this is not uncommon), forking over $200 for a pair of tickets to a hockey game just isn't a big deal like it would be in, say, Winnipeg. Even in Toronto, which is my hometown and one of the most wealthy cities in Canada, typical household income is nowhere close to what it is here.

That said, I definitely think a 2nd Toronto area team (Hamilton or elsewhere) is a much stronger business proposition at the moment, one team isn't anywhere close to adequate for a region of 8 million people where hockey is #1 by far and the populace has such an incredible passion for the game. But a 4th California team isn't a bad idea. I'd say it's about as viable as Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Fans in California aren't shelling out "hard earned money" to go to hockey games. They're shelling out pocket change.

it's corporate lackeys like you who are corrupting the NHL to the levels of American professional sports. Luxury suites this, lower bowl markups that, corporate deals all around

all I can say is *********

 

[Steve Passless*]

This picture you're painting of Sharks fans spending "mere pocket change" at games is pretty, but it neglects that the cost of living in northern California is extremely high. (Southern, too.)

 

[WWAD]

it's corporate lackeys like you who are corrupting the NHL to the levels of American professional sports. Luxury suites this, lower bowl markups that, corporate deals all around

all I can say is *********

I just don't get people like you at all. Do you get some sort of pleasure from the destruction of Canada's culture and heritage?

Ummm....you do realize this is the Business Of Hockey sub-forum, right?

 

[HabsByTheBay]

One of the problems with San Diego, sports wise, is that they're just not that far from LA. That limits their support.

If you live in a suburb like Oceanside, you're an hour from the Pond or whatever they're calling it these days. San Diego itself is an hour and a half from Anaheim...not around the corner, but certainly not far enough to warrant a third team unless there was overwhelming desire for one.

 

[krudmonk]

Well, I didn't say that, and I don't really buy it.

There's plenty of sports fans in San Francisco.

I know (to varying degrees) probably two dozen people from college who now live in SF. Of the three actual natives, two are big Giants/Niners fans. The rest are there to be indie hipster kids, advancing awful fashion and even worse music (and of course I give them crap for it). I know real San Franciscans don't fit the stereotype but many newcomers do. That's all I'm saying.

The idea that the South Bay is the bulk of season ticket holders doesn't pass the smell test

Dude, I agreed with you there. Maybe that wasn't clear.

 

[Rick Nash homework]

I know (to varying degrees) probably two dozen people from college who now live in SF. Of the three actual natives, two are big Giants/Niners fans. The rest are there to be indie hipster kids, advancing awful fashion and even worse music (and of course I give them crap for it). I know real San Franciscans don't fit the stereotype but many newcomers do. That's all I'm saying.

Dude, I agreed with you there. Maybe that wasn't clear.

Indie hipster kids are not just in San Francisco and you can find plenty in sports markets like New York City and Boston. Maybe if you spend more time with actual natives that live in San Fran then you will find more people who are fans of the Giants/Niners.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The dynamics of the sports market San Francisco are pretty fascinating, given the public image of SF and how it contrasts with the public image of your average sports fan.

I mean, to be frank, to what extent does the gay community and beyond that, the "urban sophisticate" community in SF support sports?

 

[Mwd711]

The dynamics of the sports market San Francisco are pretty fascinating, given the public image of SF and how it contrasts with the public image of your average sports fan.

I mean, to be frank, to what extent does the gay community and beyond that, the "urban sophisticate" community in SF support sports?

I couldn't say for sure, but demographically speaking, SF has a very large Asian population. About 35 percent of the city is Asian. I've only visited SF once, and Giants gear seemed to be everywhere so I assume they have widespread support within the city limits. Also, demographically, SF is comparable to Seattle and many people on this board seem to think that Seattle would be a home run for the NHL. When it comes to income, GLBT population and "professionals" - people with degrees, Seattle and SF are nearly identical. Obviously, that doesn't factor in metropolitan areas, but their urban cores are very similar. Minneapolis also has similar demographics when just focusing on urban population and last time I checked, hockey thrives there.

Regardless, SF isn't all hipsters, GLBT or Asian and obviously, the region as a whole is diverse. The region's support is needed to support a sports team, not just the city itself. I'm not sure how much it matters that the urban core supports the team. Detroit is the perfect example with the Red Wings thriving while barely anyone in the city limits could be considered an avid supporter of the team. The city's demographics are the exact opposite of the NHL's.

 

[krudmonk]

Indie hipster kids are not just in San Francisco and you can find plenty in sports markets like New York City and Boston. Maybe if you spend more time with actual natives that live in San Fran then you will find more people who are fans of the Giants/Niners.

Don't lecture me. I'm just calling it as I've seen it with my own eyes.

 

[MuzikMachine]

You realize this argument only ADDS support for a fourth California team, right?

California is one of the richest places in the world, with most of the wealth concentrated in the cities along the coast. The state has 700,000+ millionaire households. In fact, CA is home to nearly 10% of the world's millionaires. Canada has almost as many people as California, but only has 160,000 millionaire households.

San Diego alone has over 100,000 millionaires. It's not unreasonable at all to think the NHL would work there. For a household making $200k+ per year (this is not uncommon), forking over $200 for a pair of tickets to a hockey game just isn't a big deal like it would be in, say, Winnipeg. Even in Toronto, which is my hometown and one of the most wealthy cities in Canada, typical household income is nowhere close to what it is here.

That said, I definitely think a 2nd Toronto area team (Hamilton or elsewhere) is a much stronger business proposition at the moment, one team isn't anywhere close to adequate for a region of 8 million people where hockey is #1 by far and the populace has such an incredible passion for the game. But a 4th California team isn't a bad idea. I'd say it's about as viable as Winnipeg or Quebec City.

Fans in California aren't shelling out "hard earned money" to go to hockey games. They're shelling out pocket change.

There's one key question that has to be satisfied - are the 700,000+ millionares hockey fans?? History has prooven that wealth and population has not always translated into a successful or thriving sports market. The issues with San Deago are documented, the NFL has not been in Los Angeles for 15 years after having two teams, and the NHL has struggled in other markets (i.e. Phoenix, Atlanta, etc.). There are non-pro sports activies and entertainment options that are available.

I will concede that wealth and population are definitly an asset (compare Toronto vs. Winnipeg in terms of populatin and wealth - assume both have relativily equal interest in hockey), however it does not translate into a slam dunk.

Personally I think that San Jose satisfies the need for the NHL being the SF Bay market, a 2nd team might saturate the market.

 

[TMC1982]

Great.

What arena would they play in?

There's the Cow Palace (where the Sharks played in their first two years of existance), but that arena is really, really old. I rather have a team (if the Bay Area needs another NHL team) in Oakland and just bring back the Seals.