Player Discussion: Sami Niku

[Daximus]

It looks to me like Vesalainen will be on the opening night roster.

That means:
* Dano and Petan as the extra forwards
* Morrissey-Trouba, Morrow-Buff are seeming likely as the top 4
* Chiarot and Kulikov competing for the spot with Myers
* Niku and Poolman back with the Moose

I'd suggest Niku is probably the first callup if a lefty gets injured, and might jump over Kulikov or Chiarot.

I don't think it's completely set in stone yet. They are giving him every chance to make it but ultimately I think they'd prefer having him play for the Moose if they can.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

It all depends on whether Vesalainen or Lemieux make the opening night roster. If not then Dano likely claims a spot playing alongside Roslovic and Petan sits in the pressbox. Then we can carry 8D, send Poolman down to the AHL for more seasoning and Niku can play on the opening night roster with Chiarot and Poolman sitting in the pressbox. It gives us 3LD (MoJo, Niku and Kuli) and 3RD (Trouba, Buff and Myers) with a LD (Chiarot) and a RD (Morrow) sitting in the PB in case of any injuries. And Poolman is a short callup away.

This is all the more aided by Vesalainen agreeing to go to the Moose rather than Europe. I think spending a year with the Moose playing 1st line minutes and PP1 time is a great way to prepare him to come into the lineup next season. Lemieux and Vesalainen will likely get games with injuries as well.

This all sounds fine - except that; a) we don't have a suitable defense partner for Niku. He is not the man to play defense while Buff roams; b) right now he is not a better D man than Morrow/Chiarot. Or at least he isn't clearly better than either, IMO. He needs to get better in his own end; and finally c) see point a above.

When he moves into the NHL full time, he needs to be able to stand alone defensively because he is going to be paired with a partner who has issues playing defense. I don't think he is ready for that challenge yet.

 

[Daximus]

This all sounds fine - except that; a) we don't have a suitable defense partner for Niku. He is not the man to play defense while Buff roams; b) right now he is not a better D man than Morrow/Chiarot. Or at least he isn't clearly better than either, IMO. He needs to get better in his own end; and finally c) see point a above.

When he moves into the NHL full time, he needs to be able to stand alone defensively because he is going to be paired with a partner who has issues playing defense. I don't think he is ready for that challenge yet.

For a rebuttal

A) We haven't tried Niku with Buff so we can't state what we don't know.
B) Right now he is already better offensively than Morrow and Chiarot combined and no worse defensively. Chiarot was just as much out of position when the two were paired together if not moreso. At least Niku was taking a man everytime. Chiarot just froze on the spot and hoped someone would come at him. Add onto the fact that Niku is miles better at moving and skating with the puck. Chiarot hits more...
C) Buff has played with many partners and has elevated all of their games. The best way to learn is by doing. Niku is NHL ready in every sense of the word, except the fact that he hasn't played in a full regular season NHL game this year.

He's not an 18 year old prospect fresh out of the draft that needs more seasoning. He's a pro who is heading into his D+5 at 22 years old after playing two full years in Euro pro against men (Liiga) and a full year of NA pro against men after just winning defencemen of the year there. No matter what he will have to learn the NHL game at some point,. he's not going to do that in the A. And if we want to be competitive with him, the faster we make that transition the better. Sending him down just delays that transition some more.

 

[ecolad]

I think we might be writing off Morrow a bit too quickly here. He wouldn't be the first dmen with pedigree to bounce around a bit before he finds his game. While it was a short sample size and while it was largely with Buff, he posted some darn good numbers from both a possession and a scoring rate perspective last year for us.

I really have no issue with the team using the first bit of the season to see if he continues his play from last year. If he does the team has found an offensive minded second pairing dmen for a 4th round pick and suddenly our defense doesn't look so bad moving forward. You need to get some steals in trades to help win a cup.

I fully agree with this as well Surixon. The eye test alone suggests that Morrow brings much more than Chiarot in nearly every way possible (slightly less in physicality for those who value this trait). My apprehension is that Chevy will give Chiarot the benefit of the doubt in every decision made, strictly because he arose from within the organization - as opposed to Morrow who was secured from outside the organization. I see Chevy`s tendency to be extra patient and to build from within as something of a mixed blessing. We are going pretty far off topic here though with this discussion... .

 

[Daximus]

I'll also add I don't think it's fair that Niku's shot to make the NHL is being played with Chiarot on his offside. He should have been tried with both Buff and Myers. Regardless of how we view their styles of game. It's not a fair chance IMO.

 

[surixon]

I'll also add I don't think it's fair that Niku's shot to make the NHL is being played with Chiarot on his offside. He should have been tried with both Buff and Myers. Regardless of how we view their styles of game. It's not a fair chance IMO.

I would say that his usage this preseason is indicative of his place on the depth chart. He looks to be the number 8 dmen. If they were leaning to having him on the team as an everyday player he likely would have been trailed with Buff and Myers like how Morrissey was the TC that he cracked the lineup.

 

[Daximus]

I would say that his usage this preseason is indicative of his place on the depth chart. He looks to be the number 8 dmen. If they were leaning to having him on the team as an everyday player he likely would have been trailed with Buff and Myers like how Morrissey was the TC that he cracked the lineup.

Yeah I'm just stating that I don't think it's a good evaluation. He's proven more in the A then Chiarot, Morrow or Poolman ever have. Hell even Stanley got a better shot at making the roster this preseason playing alongside Buff for at least 1 game.

Buff, MoJo, Trouba, Myers, Kulikov, Niku, Morrow, Chiarot, Poolman is how I view them. Poolman didn't even come out as anywhere near as effective in the A as Niku did. At worst Niku is #6 on my depth chart and there is no reason for Poolman to be anywhere near above him.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

For a rebuttal

A) We haven't tried Niku with Buff so we can't state what we don't know.
B) Right now he is already better offensively than Morrow and Chiarot combined and no worse defensively. Chiarot was just as much out of position when the two were paired together if not moreso. At least Niku was taking a man everytime. Chiarot just froze on the spot and hoped someone would come at him. Add onto the fact that Niku is miles better at moving and skating with the puck. Chiarot hits more...
C) Buff has played with many partners and has elevated all of their games. The best way to learn is by doing. Niku is NHL ready in every sense of the word, except the fact that he hasn't played in a full regular season NHL game this year.

He's not an 18 year old prospect fresh out of the draft that needs more seasoning. He's a pro who is heading into his D+5 at 22 years old after playing two full years in Euro pro against men (Liiga) and a full year of NA pro against men after just winning defencemen of the year there. No matter what he will have to learn the NHL game at some point,. he's not going to do that in the A. And if we want to be competitive with him, the faster we make that transition the better. Sending him down just delays that transition some more.

The thing is that I don't agree that he is as good defensively as either Morrow or Chiarot. We disagree on how good Niku is defensively. That's why I think he is not a fit with Buff. You are correct that we can't know with absolute certainty until it is tried. But I see no reason to believe that it has a snowball's chance of working. Two offense first D men, one of them a raw rookie, is not a recipe for success.

It is true that Buff has elevated the games of his partners, except Myers. They have all been defense first players - of varying quality, again with the exception of Myers.

I don't know how you can say that Niku is NHL ready in every sense of the word given his poor D zone play. And that is in pre-season games against AHL calibre F's, or veterans who are not going 100%. Real NHL games will be a lot tougher.

He is entering D+4. He will soon be 22. From all your posts on the subject, it seems to me that you are putting way too much weight on him winning D man of the year in the AHL.

I agree that he will need to transition to the NHL at some point. That can't be done anywhere but in the NHL. But he will get that opportunity this year anyway. When did we ever have a year with no D injuries? He probably gets called up after the TD anyway. If he is sent down he still probably gets 30-40 NHL games. I just don't see any need to keep him out of TC. Even to play in Finland, he can be called up shortly before that trip. That's supposed to be the big advantage of having the Moose in Wpg. Players can be moved up and down easily.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

I fully agree with this as well Surixon. The eye test alone suggests that Morrow brings much more than Chiarot in nearly every way possible (slightly less in physicality for those who value this trait). My apprehension is that Chevy will give Chiarot the benefit of the doubt in every decision made, strictly because he arose from within the organization - as opposed to Morrow who was secured from outside the organization. I see Chevy`s tendency to be extra patient and to build from within as something of a mixed blessing. We are going pretty far off topic here though with this discussion... .

It seemed to me that Morrow was given preference over Chiarot right from the time he arrived here.

 

[Daximus]

The thing is that I don't agree that he is as good defensively as either Morrow or Chiarot. We disagree on how good Niku is defensively. That's why I think he is not a fit with Buff. You are correct that we can't know with absolute certainty until it is tried. But I see no reason to believe that it has a snowball's chance of working. Two offense first D men, one of them a raw rookie, is not a recipe for success.

It is true that Buff has elevated the games of his partners, except Myers. They have all been defense first players - of varying quality, again with the exception of Myers.

I don't know how you can say that Niku is NHL ready in every sense of the word given his poor D zone play. And that is in pre-season games against AHL calibre F's, or veterans who are not going 100%. Real NHL games will be a lot tougher.

He is entering D+4. He will soon be 22. From all your posts on the subject, it seems to me that you are putting way too much weight on him winning D man of the year in the AHL.

I agree that he will need to transition to the NHL at some point. That can't be done anywhere but in the NHL. But he will get that opportunity this year anyway. When did we ever have a year with no D injuries? He probably gets called up after the TD anyway. If he is sent down he still probably gets 30-40 NHL games. I just don't see any need to keep him out of TC. Even to play in Finland, he can be called up shortly before that trip. That's supposed to be the big advantage of having the Moose in Wpg. Players can be moved up and down easily.

He didn't look any worse then either of them. And was always at least moving when in the Dzone. Chiarot just stands there puck watching waiting for the play to come to his corner. Niku could use a lot more work on his gaps and net front but Chiarot and Morrow aren't exactly any better. We could debate this for hours but they really aren't in my opinion. After rewatching Mondays game Chiarot looked way more lost on his offside then Niku. They both weren't great but Niku took a man every time while Chiarot just stood there. Morrow 's best asset is his ability to move the puck out of the zone, he isn't exactly a great shutdown Dman and often gets beat in the corners. Niku's puck retrieval is on another level compared to either of them. As is his first pass out of the zone and if he chooses to skate it out he is more effective then either of them at doing so.

Morrow has always been a more offensive minded D at lower levels and isn't exactly what I would call a shutdown defender yet he looked fine with Buff in limited games. Niku would stand out in a more pronounced way if the two of them were paired. He has a much better offensive mind and learning to play defence with Buff is probably the best way you can learn to play defence.

You are correct it is his +4 season my bad. I'm putting more stock into him being a 3 year pro coming into this season. Unless of course Liiga is a nothing league. We seemed to be pretty hyped on how Vesalainen played over there. Perhaps more hyped then we are on Niku who has proven himself in a stronger league already while also performing well in Liiga.

 

[Jets 31]

I know it's early in Niku's career but how in the world did he fall to the 7th round ? Did teams think he was too small or something ? Glad we got him and to all the teams that passed on him ........

 

[surixon]

He didn't look any worse then either of them. And was always at least moving when in the Dzone. Chiarot just stands there puck watching waiting for the play to come to his corner. Niku could use a lot more work on his gaps and net front but Chiarot and Morrow aren't exactly any better. We could debate this for hours but they really aren't in my opinion. After rewatching Mondays game Chiarot looked way more lost on his offside then Niku. They both weren't great but Niku took a man every time while Chiarot just stood there. Morrow 's best asset is his ability to move the puck out of the zone, he isn't exactly a great shutdown Dman and often gets beat in the corners. Niku's puck retrieval is on another level compared to either of them. As is his first pass out of the zone and if he chooses to skate it out he is more effective then either of them at doing so.

Morrow has always been a more offensive minded D at lower levels and isn't exactly what I would call a shutdown defender yet he looked fine with Buff in limited games. Niku would stand out in a more pronounced way if the two of them were paired. He has a much better offensive mind and learning to play defence with Buff is probably the best way you can learn to play defence.

You are correct it is his +4 season my bad. I'm putting more stock into him being a 3 year pro coming into this season. Unless of course Liiga is a nothing league. We seemed to be pretty hyped on how Vesalainen played over there. Perhaps more hyped then we are on Niku who has proven himself in a stronger league already while also performing well in Liiga.

Niku has played two games woth Buff. One at last season's TC where he looked a bit lost and one last season in his NHL debut. He did score that game but the pair was also burried in their end and finished with a just over 40% c.f.. So no I don't think it's a slam dunk that Niku and Buff would fit well together given they didn't perform well together I their previous two games. That doesn't mean that they can't going forward but there is no guarantee. We know that over a decent enough sample Morrow can be very good with Buff. The coach will pick the proven option 9 times out of 10.

 

[Daximus]

Niku has played two games woth Buff. One at last season's TC where he looked a bit lost and one last season in his NHL debut. He did score that game but the pair was also burried in their end and finished with a just over 40% c.f.. So no I don't think it's a slam dunk that Niku and Buff would fit well together given they didn't perform well together I their previous two games. That doesn't mean that they can't going forward but there is no guarantee. We know that over a decent enough sample Morrow can be very good with Buff. The coach will pick the proven option 9 times out of 10.

That's what the preseason is for. To check on unproven methods. We haven't done that fairly with Niku IMO. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Niku is a very comparable player to Gostisbehere. If you are trying to mold Ghost into a beastly two-way defender like Hedman you will always be sadly mistaken. He's just not that type of player. Niku is never going to be a shutdown defender no matter how much we want him to be. As it fills a need. You play the best players that you have and you watch them do their magic. Anyone thinking Niku is going to ever be a two-way defender or amazing in his own zone is setting themselves up for being dissapointed. It's not his game.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

He didn't look any worse then either of them. And was always at least moving when in the Dzone. Chiarot just stands there puck watching waiting for the play to come to his corner. Niku could use a lot more work on his gaps and net front but Chiarot and Morrow aren't exactly any better. We could debate this for hours but they really aren't in my opinion. After rewatching Mondays game Chiarot looked way more lost on his offside then Niku. They both weren't great but Niku took a man every time while Chiarot just stood there. Morrow 's best asset is his ability to move the puck out of the zone, he isn't exactly a great shutdown Dman and often gets beat in the corners. Niku's puck retrieval is on another level compared to either of them. As is his first pass out of the zone and if he chooses to skate it out he is more effective then either of them at doing so.

Morrow has always been a more offensive minded D at lower levels and isn't exactly what I would call a shutdown defender yet he looked fine with Buff in limited games. Niku would stand out in a more pronounced way if the two of them were paired. He has a much better offensive mind and learning to play defence with Buff is probably the best way you can learn to play defence.

You are correct it is his +4 season my bad. I'm putting more stock into him being a 3 year pro coming into this season. Unless of course Liiga is a nothing league. We seemed to be pretty hyped on how Vesalainen played over there. Perhaps more hyped then we are on Niku who has proven himself in a stronger league already while also performing well in Liiga.

In fairness, you are judging Chiarot on his off-side - and in a preseason game.

Morrow may have been somewhat offensive in Jr but he hasn't had much offense in either the AHL or NHL. If he isn't defensive, he isn't anything. 25 pts in 121 NHL games.

I wouldn't call Liiga a nothing league. But it isn't the KHL, much less the NHL. I like that they play against men but I think that is sometimes overemphasized here. And they have a pretty good smattering of Jrs as well.

I hope you are right. We'll have a better idea once we see him play against real NHL'ers.

 

[Daximus]

In fairness, you are judging Chiarot on his off-side - and in a preseason game.

Morrow may have been somewhat offensive in Jr but he hasn`t had much offense in either the AHL or NHL. If he isn`t defensive, he isn`t anything. 25 pts in 121 NHL games.

I wouldn`t call Liiga a nothing league. But it isn`t the KHL, much less the NHL. I like that they play against men but I think that is sometimes overemphasized here. And they have a pretty good smattering of Jrs as well.

I hope you are right. We`ll have a better idea once we see him play against real NHLèrs.

Everywhere Morrow has gone he's been used in a more offensive role, outside of not being on powerplay units. His game has always been an offensive one. Often heavily skewed to the offensive zone because of his shot. It was only when paired with Buff that he showed strong possession numbers and still he was skewed to offensive zone deployment. The only other time he's had strong possession numbers in Boston is when he started damn near every shift in the offensive zone.

Chiarot being on his offside is kind of my point. What the hell kind of chance does anyone have playing with Chiarot on his offside?

 

[surixon]

That's what the preseason is for. To check on unproven methods. We haven't done that fairly with Niku IMO. Sometimes you have to take a chance. Niku is a very comparable player to Gostisbehere. If you are trying to mold Ghost into a beastly two-way defender like Hedman you will always be sadly mistaken. He's just not that type of player. Niku is never going to be a shutdown defender no matter how much we want him to be. As it fills a need. You play the best players that you have and you watch them do their magic. Anyone thinking Niku is going to ever be a two-way defender or amazing in his own zone is setting themselves up for being dissapointed. It's not his game.

Well to be fair Moe is trying different things this preseason, it's just the things he's trying are things most if us fans aren't onboard with cough Myers on the left cough.

As I have said I agree with you player comp for Niku and ultimately how he should be broken in. But playing him with Buff on the second pairing is not sheltering him in offensive situations like what Philly has done with Ghost. I would argue playing Niku with Buff would be the opposite of what you want to happen. Every LD that has played with Buff has morphed into more of a stay at home guy so that Buff can go off and roam and do his thing.

Toby went from offense first to defense first over the years playing with Buff. Morrissey stayed back and covered for Buff when he played with him. Chariot always stayed back etc... it would be no different for Niku, Buff will tobhis thing and Niku would end up hanging back more and more.

 

[nobody imp0rtant]

I hope he brings his sister, for you know; moral support.
View attachment 142413

Eww, that looks like a contestant on Toddlers and Tiaras.

 

[Aggie204]

Eww, that looks like a contestant on Toddlers and Tiaras.

Bwahaha it’s from one of @Mud Turtle masterful GDT
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/jets-vs-senators-apr-2-6-30-pm-sister-act.2471961/

 

[JetsUK]

Wasn’t Niku used in a more defensive role when playing for Finland? I seem to recall him receiving praise for his d-play during those stints.

Either way, I see him as an upgrade over Chia and maybe Morrow too as a PMD, and think he’ll be a quick study. He was at least as dominant at times in the AHl as JMo, also a PMD whose key assets are skating and IQ. Don’t see why he can’t adapt.

 

[Daximus]

Wasn’t Niku used in a more defensive role when playing for Finland? I seem to recall him receiving praise for his d-play during those stints.

Either way, I see him as an upgrade over Chia and maybe Morrow too as a PMD, and think he’ll be a quick study. He was at least as dominant at times in the AHl as JMo, also a PMD whose key assets are skating and IQ. Don’t see why he can’t adapt.

He can't learn to adapt unless he plays. There really is no reason not to play him outside of maybe some waiver issues with other players but I don't see most of those guys running away with a spot yet.

 

[Ducky10]

Well to be fair Moe is trying different things this preseason, it's just the things he's trying are things most if us fans aren't onboard with cough Myers on the left cough.

As I have said I agree with you player comp for Niku and ultimately how he should be broken in. But playing him with Buff on the second pairing is not sheltering him in offensive situations like what Philly has done with Ghost. I would argue playing Niku with Buff would be the opposite of what you want to happen. Every LD that has played with Buff has morphed into more of a stay at home guy so that Buff can go off and roam and do his thing.

Toby went from offense first to defense first over the years playing with Buff. Morrissey stayed back and covered for Buff when he played with him. Chariot always stayed back etc... it would be no different for Niku, Buff will tobhis thing and Niku would end up hanging back more and more.

I don't see that as a bad thing, it's largely what is going to help him realize what he needs to adapt to in the NHL. He can accomplish a lot of things with his skating ability and his puck movement, just like Enstrom did. I think Niku sees the ice well, his positioning will improve with time and he'll get that opportunity with Buff.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Everywhere Morrow has gone he's been used in a more offensive role, outside of not being on powerplay units. His game has always been an offensive one. Often heavily skewed to the offensive zone because of his shot. It was only when paired with Buff that he showed strong possession numbers and still he was skewed to offensive zone deployment. The only other time he's had strong possession numbers in Boston is when he started damn near every shift in the offensive zone.

Chiarot being on his offside is kind of my point. What the hell kind of chance does anyone have playing with Chiarot on his offside?

But Morrow has never scored much in pro hockey. His best was his 2nd season in the A, 56 gms, 29 pts. So he is an unsuccessful offensive Dman. What is he good at? That may serve your point. Thing is, he better be able to play defensively because he is not good offensively.

What the hell kind of chance does he have playing with Buff? Never mind that Buff has carried some other D men. Look at their styles. Where do you see a fit? It is like Myers with Buff. Who is going to play defense on that pair?

 

[Daximus]

But Morrow has never scored much in pro hockey. His best was his 2nd season in the A, 56 gms, 29 pts. So he is an unsuccessful offensive Dman. What is he good at? That may serve your point. Thing is, he better be able to play defensively because he is not good offensively.

What the hell kind of chance does he have playing with Buff? Never mind that Buff has carried some other D men. Look at their styles. Where do you see a fit? It is like Myers with Buff. Who is going to play defense on that pair?

Buffs deployment is usually skewed to the offensive side of the puck, especially when he's with younger players. It's not like Buff is a black hole defensively. He may not have the best positioning at times but he can play defence. It's more the fact that we just assume it won't work without having tried it first. Obviously Myers and Buff don't work. But Myers isn't exactly a shining example of good in his own zone either. I'd just like to try it for a few games to see how it works we at least tried the Myers-Buff experiment.

Morrow didn't really play defence on that pair, in fact his offence was the reason they stayed together.

 

[Mortimer Snerd]

Buffs deployment is usually skewed to the offensive side of the puck, especially when he's with younger players. It's not like Buff is a black hole defensively. He may not have the best positioning at times but he can play defence. It's more the fact that we just assume it won't work without having tried it first. Obviously Myers and Buff don't work. But Myers isn't exactly a shining example of good in his own zone either. I'd just like to try it for a few games to see how it works we at least tried the Myers-Buff experiment.

Morrow didn't really play defence on that pair, in fact his offence was the reason they stayed together.

I wouldn't have minded seeing Niku with Buff in pre-season. The fact we didn't should tell us something.

 

[Daximus]

I wouldn't have minded seeing Niku with Buff in pre-season. The fact we didn't should tell us something.

That we aren't willing to certain players a chance? The fact we saw Stanley get better treatment in the preseason should tell us something.