Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer Part 2 | The Hunt for 3C Continued

[WayneSid9987]

RinTin.
I know you like to deep dive on the stats.
I'd love some analysis on guys in the gettable range via trading money off the roster.
Like 4M max but more in the 3.5M range and under 3C's.

I remember you already did it for the 2M range guys.

Here's an easy list to go off of:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=134501459&postcount=308

Perhaps i'm missing a guy like i did with Richardson but i doubt it.
I'd just love to get a deeper look into 2M to 4'ishM guys.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

1) You're aware that Drai would actually have to be interested in signing an OS right? Some other GM can't just go and be like here we're doing this.
2) Anything that someone would reasonably offer him, Edmonton would just match. So unless you're going to pay him 11m to be your star center (and give up 4x1st's in the process), why bother?
3) GMs don't make moves to **** other teams over... they make moves to make their own team better. When you start intentionally ****ing another team over, you're shooting yourself in the foot for any future moves you want to make.

While I generally agree with this, your point 3) needs to be addressed. There are probably 15-20 teams right now who would be better if they offer sheeted Draisaitl. We can probably eliminate about 10 teams overall, either because of financial constraints or an already-solid center situation.

Everybody else would be greatly improved if they offer-sheeted Draisaitl. Would Edmonton really feel like it would be a punk move if Mtl offer-sheeted Draisaitl? A team that has Cup aspirations who head to training camp with Phillip Danault as their current No. 1 center?

They would not be trying to screw Edmonton. They would be trying to finally get a No. 1 center, and they'd be exhausting every avenue to do so. If Edm takes it badly, so be it.

Sooner or later, a GM will be the rebel and start using the RFA tactic. If you don't, you are handcuffing yourself even more than the salary cap already does. If your job is on the line, you better exhaust every avenue.

I feel like there is a nice package to put together with Jarry, Pouliot, Maatta, and our 1st round pick but I feel like the value of each of those could not be any worse right now. Should GM JR just play the waiting game for now and see if any of these guys gain value by the trade deadline?

That seems like a MASSIVE overpayment to me. For those four assets, I'd want a guy like Draisaitl coming back (not Duchene). Sakic has every right to ask for the moon in return for Duchene (who clearly means a lot to that franchise).

Doesn't mean we have to bite. We are the last team that should panic right now.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

So Edmonton should give up RNH for someone who (as part of the big return) would be a "short term addition for them" ??

I was mostly answering the question about where Cole would play, noting Sekera's major injury.

But I don't think Cole would be a bad pickup for Edmonton at this time. Obviously, they'd have to get another forward back as well (who would be the main part of the deal).

This is the same GM who traded a franchise LW for a solid defenseman.

 

[PittPen]

Seconded.


Duchene: I don't have a problem with the 2 year thing because guys like Hags or others could be moved while maintaining the "cornerstone core" potentially. I mean it's not guaranteed we'd be able to keep him but there is a point WRT to that "prime window years" argument. As long as the price to get him isn't absurd which the longer this goes the more likely that is the case. But in theory the 2 year risk part doesn't bug me too much if the price is fair. Always possible we could work some accounting magic.

I wonder if the price will come down the longer this goes. How similar is Duchene's situation to Rick Nash when he was finally traded out of Columbus? Hawson took too long and passed on better offers and had to settle for much less, IIRC.

 

[PittPen]

Even if he comes at a reasonable cost trade-wise, do people really want RNH at a $6M cap hit for 4 more years?

He's not even good fit for what we need in a 3C.

I can't see the justification in trading for a big money center as a fill-in for Sid/Geno. If either of those 2 miss too many games that matter, the team is screwed anyway.

 

[CanadianPensFan1]

Honestly ... i don't think we will get duchesne.

But if we only have him for 2 years and we win the cup both years, I'll glad make that trade off with whatever the current rumoured assets are

 

[Penske]

Even if he comes at a reasonable cost trade-wise, do people really want RNH at a $6M cap hit for 4 more years?

He's not even good fit for what we need in a 3C.

I can't see the justification in trading for a big money center as a fill-in for Sid/Geno. If either of those 2 miss too many games that matter, the team is screwed anyway.

No! RNH isn't the centre for us in terms of style and cost (trade and AAV).

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Even if he comes at a reasonable cost trade-wise, do people really want RNH at a $6M cap hit for 4 more years?

He's not even good fit for what we need in a 3C.

I can't see the justification in trading for a big money center as a fill-in for Sid/Geno. If either of those 2 miss too many games that matter, the team is screwed anyway.

No! RNH isn't the centre for us in terms of style and cost (trade and AAV).

How is Nugent-Hopkins a bad fit? He kills penalties, plays the power play and is a very good setup man. Does he want to be a No. 3 center for the rest of his contract? Probably not, but I am sure the allure of winning a Cup helps to motivate him.

And, he IS the type of center who could step in for Crosby or Malkin for spurts.

There is nothing wrong with Nugent-Hopkins, style-wise or otherwise--except his cap hit.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

How is Nugent-Hopkins a bad fit? He kills penalties, plays the power play and is a very good setup man. Does he want to be a No. 3 center for the rest of his contract? Probably not, but I am sure the allure of winning a Cup helps to motivate him.

And, he IS the type of center who could step in for Crosby or Malkin for spurts.

There is nothing wrong with Nugent-Hopkins, style-wise or otherwise--except his cap hit.

Yeah, RNH is even a quick skater if people are worried about that. He's the kind of guy that could produce 50+ on the 3rd line with guys like Rust and even Wilson could play with him and be very good. I mean the cap hit is tough, sure, but Duchene is literally for 2yrs and the amount the Pens have to give up, kills the defense.

RNH wouldn't kill our defense.

For the Oilers, moving RNH opens up a lot of cap space for Draisaitl and even contracts for Nurse the following year.

What could it possibly take? What could the Pens add to make the Oilers eat even 15%?

 

[Riptide]

I wonder if the price will come down the longer this goes. How similar is Duchene's situation to Rick Nash when he was finally traded out of Columbus? Hawson took too long and passed on better offers and had to settle for much less, IIRC.

It's not at all. A) Nash had 7 years on his deal when was traded B) Nash had a full NMC and was only giving CBJ 1 (iirc) team to go to - the Rangers. Duchene by comparison has no NMC/NTC and only has 2 years on his deal before he's a UFA.

Even if he comes at a reasonable cost trade-wise, do people really want RNH at a $6M cap hit for 4 more years?

He's not even good fit for what we need in a 3C.

I can't see the justification in trading for a big money center as a fill-in for Sid/Geno. If either of those 2 miss too many games that matter, the team is screwed anyway.

He'd be a great fit for what some are looking for. Skilled, can skate, can pass and create offense, kills penalties and is young with term. The only downside (and thus why he might become available) is his cap hit. Which would strain us, but could be workable at least in the short term (1-2 years). Long term, you're probably trading him... but you can always move skilled centers.

I was mostly answering the question about where Cole would play, noting Sekera's major injury.

But I don't think Cole would be a bad pickup for Edmonton at this time. Obviously, they'd have to get another forward back as well (who would be the main part of the deal).

This is the same GM who traded a franchise LW for a solid defenseman.

A solid defenseman who was under term for 5 years.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

A solid defenseman who was under term for 5 years.

And there a ton of wingers at least equal to Hall. Dude hasn't yet played with a great 1C, but he's not a franchise anything.

 

[Riptide]

While I generally agree with this, your point 3) needs to be addressed. There are probably 15-20 teams right now who would be better if they offer sheeted Draisaitl. We can probably eliminate about 10 teams overall, either because of financial constraints or an already-solid center situation.

Everybody else would be greatly improved if they offer-sheeted Draisaitl. Would Edmonton really feel like it would be a punk move if Mtl offer-sheeted Draisaitl? A team that has Cup aspirations who head to training camp with Phillip Danault as their current No. 1 center?

They would not be trying to screw Edmonton. They would be trying to finally get a No. 1 center, and they'd be exhausting every avenue to do so. If Edm takes it badly, so be it.

I'm sure there are 15-20 teams who Drai would make better. But again, he needs to be willing to sign there - which lands you back at #1

There's also only 12 teams who can (without making a single move) afford a 10m cap hit. Remember, you're not only signing him to a massive contract to convince him to sign with you, you're also trying to convince Edmonton not to match it. Which means you're probably looking at something between 9.5-11m. Is Drai worth that commitment (cap wise) for the next 7 years?

And I'm not against OSing someone, or assuming that it's automatically a punk move. It's a tool, and one that GMs should always consider - as long as it's with the intention's of making their team better. The part I was addressing with that was the comment about how it would put Edmonton "in cap hell". That's a terrible reason to offer an OS. The reason most do not use offer sheets isn't because of the friendly buddy-buddy or unwritten rule, but because you have to stupidly overpay the player to get the other team not to match the deal. Which then likely screws your own cap situation. Most competitive teams are not in a situation where they can overpay someone by 2m+ and not have it affect them elsewhere.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's not at all. A) Nash had 7 years on his deal when was traded B) Nash had a full NMC and was only giving CBJ 1 (iirc) team to go to - the Rangers. Duchene by comparison has no NMC/NTC and only has 2 years on his deal before he's a UFA.



He'd be a great fit for what some are looking for. Skilled, can skate, can pass and create offense, kills penalties and is young with term. The only downside (and thus why he might become available) is his cap hit. Which would strain us, but could be workable at least in the short term (1-2 years). Long term, you're probably trading him... but you can always move skilled centers.



A solid defenseman who was under term for 5 years.

Duchene is the same cap hit, is 2 less years, the Avs are unlikely to eat salary (we just hope they do) and he'll likely cost Maatta, a 1st and probably Sprong as well and that's just what we assume that idiot Sakic wants.

Chiarelli is in a bind, he's got huge contracts to McDavid, Lucic, etc and he needs to make some space or delay the inevitable with Draisaitl with a bridge contract and then Leon going beast mode and now his ask is almost as high as McDavid's...

Next summer is massive too.

RFA's:
Benning
Nurse
Pakarainen
Caggiula
Slepyshev
Strome

UFA:
Maroon
Letestu - A guy that would fit in perfectly well on the 3C role if they go McDavid-Draisaitl-Letestu as their top 3.


McDavid's contract kicks after this next season too. Chiarelli can roll the dice and just try to make it work, but that's assuming he gets Draisaitl signed to some bridge contract or is smart and gets him locked in for long term as well.

With only 10.4m cap left.

 

[SEALBound]

Duchene is the same cap hit, is 2 less years, the Avs are unlikely to eat salary (we just hope they do) and he'll likely cost Maatta, a 1st and probably Sprong as well and that's just what we assume that idiot Sakic wants.

Chiarelli is in a bind, he's got huge contracts to McDavid, Lucic, etc and he needs to make some space or delay the inevitable with Draisaitl with a bridge contract and then Leon going beast mode and now his ask is almost as high as McDavid's...

Next summer is massive too.

RFA's:
Benning
Nurse
Pakarainen
Caggiula
Slepyshev
Strome

UFA:
Maroon
Letestu - A guy that would fit in perfectly well on the 3C role if they go McDavid-Draisaitl-Letestu as their top 3.


McDavid's contract kicks after this next season too. Chiarelli can roll the dice and just try to make it work, but that's assuming he gets Draisaitl signed to some bridge contract or is smart and gets him locked in for long term as well.

With only 10.4m cap left.

This next year is their best chance. Otherwise it will only get harder as guys need raises.

 

[JTG]

I don't like bringing on a Duchene type contract, but I can't help but think the versatility he'd bring to this lineup. It also gives us a leg if we wanted to shorten the bench. He'd be like a swiss army knife.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Outside of RNH though...

I really want Coyle. I wonder how bad the Wild's cap situation is where they might be open to moving him?

Dumba is RFA next year, but right now they need to sign Granlund and Niederreiter. Foligno and White being the easier guys to sign for obvious reasons. But Granlund is in for a big pay day and so is Nino.

If they sign all 4 RFA's, they are still at 11 forwards.

Granlund can fall into a 6.5-7m/yr range, Nino around 5.5-6m as well based on contracts given out.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This next year is their best chance. Otherwise it will only get harder as guys need raises.

Their best chance is if they split Leon and McDavid into their own lines, move RNH for a Winger and finally have a top 6 to wreak havoc.

 

[mpp9]

I don't like bringing on a Duchene type contract, but I can't help but think the versatility he'd bring to this lineup. It also gives us a leg if we wanted to shorten the bench. He'd be like a swiss army knife.

Yeah he'd be like our Joe Pavelski. Stick with him a playmaking center and he could push for 40 goals. Give yourself ridiculous depth at center. And/or have him take faceoffs on the PP and he a tip/redirect specialist with Sid. He's underrated at it.

That's a good way to put it.

 

[PensandCaps]

Even if he comes at a reasonable cost trade-wise, do people really want RNH at a $6M cap hit for 4 more years?

He's not even good fit for what we need in a 3C.

I can't see the justification in trading for a big money center as a fill-in for Sid/Geno. If either of those 2 miss too many games that matter, the team is screwed anyway.

RNH fits the 3C role perfectly. And is good enough to fill in if Malkin or Crosby gets hurt. He PKs, sound defensively and has alot of skill.

 

[PensandCaps]

It would cost alot for Coyle, more than RNH probably.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

RNH fits the 3C role perfectly. And is good enough to fill in if Malkin or Crosby gets hurt. He PKs, sound defensively and has alot of skill.

I've seen enough of him to know he'd rebound with us in a way that would make Chiarelli look stupid, yet again, not like it takes much to.

The Oilers need to part ways with their "old core" and have already moved Hall and Eberle, RNH is the last member left. Then it's on to the new core of McDavid-Draisaitl-Nurse-Klefbom-Larsson-Talbot.

The cost would be less than the Duchene angle too. I feel like Sheary ++ is what would get it done. I mean look at Eberle, they got Strome for him, Strome sucks.

Sheary, 1st could get us RNH and some salary retained. I mean look at that Eberle deal, Strome is the far inferior product and even between Ebs and RNH, Eberle is the guy that has produced better overall offensive numbers for the Oilers, RNH's career has been marred with injuries and not living up to expectations. I think that's the team JR should be targeting.

How it would look for us...


Guentzel, Crosby, Hornqvist
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
Wilson, Nugent-Hopkins, Rust
Kuhnhackl/Archibald, Rowney, Reaves

Dumoulin, Letang
Maatta, Schultz
Cole, Hunwick

For the Oilers (if they're smart)...

Sheary, McDavid, Maroon
Lucic, Draisaitl, Caggiula
Strome, Jokinen, Puljujarvi
Kassian, Letestu, Pakarinen

That forward depth...

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It would cost alot for Coyle, more than RNH probably.

Let me have my dream god damn it.

 

[Riptide]

I've seen enough of him to know he'd rebound with us in a way that would make Chiarelli look stupid, yet again, not like it takes much to.

Sheary, 1st could get us RNH and some salary retained. I mean look at that Eberle deal, Strome is the far inferior product and even between Ebs and RNH, Eberle is the guy that has produced better overall offensive numbers for the Oilers, RNH's career has been marred with injuries and not living up to expectations. I think that's the team JR should be targeting.

Doubt it. Someone will take him at 6m - especially as Edmonton's only real motivation to moving him is cap reasons.

 

[madinsomniac]

1) You're aware that Drai would actually have to be interested in signing an OS right? Some other GM can't just go and be like here we're doing this.
2) Anything that someone would reasonably offer him, Edmonton would just match. So unless you're going to pay him 11m to be your star center (and give up 4x1st's in the process), why bother?
3) GMs don't make moves to **** other teams over... they make moves to make their own team better. When you start intentionally ****ing another team over, you're shooting yourself in the foot for any future moves you want to make.

Yep, people forget that the player has to want to sign and has to give up some leverage in doing so... and that they only way a team doesn't match is if they overpay and that isn't always wise

 

[JTG]

I'd rather have Duchene than RNH. I think Duchene brings everything RNH does plus is 10 times better in the dot, way more physical, more versatile.