Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer Part 2 | The Hunt for 3C Continued

[Andy99]

https://sports.yahoo.com/evgeni-malkin-greatest-russian-nhl-player-time-185002607.html


For those desperate for news right now like me, something to discuss. Right now, it has to be between Malkin and Federov I think. I'm giving the nod to Fed because of the era he played in. And he often played defense, driving down his point potential.

 

[MtlPenFan]

https://sports.yahoo.com/evgeni-malkin-greatest-russian-nhl-player-time-185002607.html


For those desperate for news right now like me, something to discuss. Right now, it has to be between Malkin and Federov I think. I'm giving the nod to Fed because of the era he played in. And he often played defense, driving down his point potential.

Federov was on disgustingly loaded teams. They could have won championships even with sub par performances from him.

If Malkin or Crosby faltered for more than a handful of games in any series, the Penguins would have been done.

I've said this before and I'll say it until I die: Not a single star in NHL history has done more with less than Sid and Geno.

 

[Penske]

It's not weird at all. It's a non traditional third line approach that takes advantage of the fact that Kessel and Malkin don't really work together and are better suited to drive their own lines because they like to be the alpha dogs. Of course my preference would be to have an offensively gifted 3C, but if JR can't find anyone to start the season, I like my approach better than, say, Rowney and McGregg replacing Bonino and Cullen

Are you sure about that? They seem to be pretty good together and I'm sure the stats would back that up.

 

[Andy99]

Are you sure about that? They seem to be pretty good together and I'm sure the stats would back that up.

They're not terrible, they're ok, but they both want the puck, leading to arguments as we've witnessed, and they both want to score goals, and I think being on Malkin's line has led to less scoring from Kessel. I liked him better as a player when he played with 2015-16 Bonino. Some times Geno and Kessel work to cross purposes

 

[Andy99]

Federov was on disgustingly loaded teams. They could have won championships even with sub par performances from him.

If Malkin or Crosby faltered for more than a handful of games in any series, the Penguins would have been done.

I've said this before and I'll say it until I die: Not a single star in NHL history has done more with less than Sid and Geno.

One could level that "criticism" at Malkin-- that's he benefited fro playing with Sid and other good players, especially on the power play where most of his points come.

I think they're close, but I still would give the edge to Fed. He took over more games than Malkin to date. Geno can do that, he jut do it as often as he can and should

 

[Jacob]

Fedorov did play defense but I don't recall him doing it much, if at all in those prime years of his. The longest spurts I recall was one of the last seasons he was in Detroit and a season in Columbus, where he played D for about 12-20 games in each season.

Is there any guess as to how many games he played D total in his NHL career?

 

[Empoleon8771]

And assuming you could find a decent replacement for Maatta, the team overall would still be a better team.

A. That's a huge assumption that you can find a decent replacement for Maatta.
B. It would likely cause the Penguins to have to move Hagelin for a replacement for Maatta, which weakens your wing depth more.
C. The decline on the wing and on defense, with going from Hagelin and Sheary in your top-9 to Wilson and Sprong and Maatta to an Emelin equivalent defensemen you trade Hagelin for, combined is greater than the improvement at center IMO.

 

[MtlPenFan]

One could level that "criticism" at Malkin-- that's he benefited fro playing with Sid and other good players, especially on the power play where most of his points come.

I think they're close, but I still would give the edge to Fed. He took over more games than Malkin to date. Geno can do that, he jut do it as often as he can and should

As far as up and down the lineup goes, it's not even close.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Yes please

 

[Jacob]

I've felt all along that Duchene was a pipe dream unless A) his value is drastically lower than it probably should be, and B) Sakic and co. feel compelled to move him anyway despite that low value.

If acquired, though, he's basically a 2 year rental. If he plays LW in the top 6 he's going to put up insane points and price himself out of town. Conversely, if he's the 3C, he's going to sign elsewhere in 2 years rather than be 3rd fiddle behind Crosby & Malkin, regardless of how much individual and team success he experiences here.

 

[PensPlz]

Yes please

Asham and Orpik...

 

[Jacob]

Asham and Orpik...

Actually that was Richard Park's **** up.

 

[Nakawick]

I've felt all along that Duchene was a pipe dream unless A) his value is drastically lower than it probably should be, and B) Sakic and co. feel compelled to move him anyway despite that low value.

If acquired, though, he's basically a 2 year rental. If he plays LW in the top 6 he's going to put up insane points and price himself out of town. Conversely, if he's the 3C, he's going to sign elsewhere in 2 years rather than be 3rd fiddle behind Crosby & Malkin, regardless of how much individual and team success he experiences here.

We are getting into hypotheticals, but Duchene plays mostly C or RW. If Hornqvist moves on and or if Kessel is traded, he could have a spot past 2 years.

But 2 years during the prime window would still be worth it.

 

[Jacob]

We are getting into hypotheticals, but Duchene plays mostly C or RW. If Hornqvist moves on and or if Kessel is traded, he could have a spot past 2 years.

But 2 years during the prime window would still be worth it.

I kind of think so too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

But you don't trade Sheary and Maatta together to play Duchene on the wing, that's the problem here. The upgrade from Sheary to Duchene on the wing isn't worth losing Maatta.

Idk, I just feel like the Penguins put themselves in an unnecessary position of needing to jump through hoops for Duchene to make sense. I'd rather just keep all of guys like Hagelin, Kessel, Sheary, Maatta and Hornqvist and not be forced to move them to accommodate one guy that's not better than Kessel. I just don't think Duchene is a good enough player for you to completely mess around with the lineup that has given you 2 cups in a row just to be able to fit him in somewhere.

 

[ColePens]

Here's my mega issue when people post highlight youtube videos:

 

[Nakawick]

But you don't trade Sheary and Maatta together to play Duchene on the wing, that's the problem here. The upgrade from Sheary to Duchene on the wing isn't worth losing Maatta.

Idk, I just feel like the Penguins put themselves in an unnecessary position of needing to jump through hoops for Duchene to make sense. I'd rather just keep all of guys like Hagelin, Kessel, Sheary, Maatta and Hornqvist and not be forced to move them to accommodate one guy that's not better than Kessel. I just don't think Duchene is a good enough player for you to completely mess around with the lineup that has given you 2 cups in a row just to be able to fit him in somewhere.

Duchene plays center, which is why he is considered a potential "target" for the Pens. The fact that he can also play wing ups his value to the Pens more so than probably any other team considering who his center would be. Nothing is set in stone or made concrete in July. The beauty of Duchene is that he can play 3C with Rust and Wilson. He can play 3C with Hagelin and Kessel, he can play RW with Jake and Sid, he can play LW with Malkin and Kessel, etc, etc.

The versatility is a big factor and would give Sully a lot of different options to deploy lines and attack teams. You thought HBK was a match up nightmare? Imagine adding someone with Duchene's versatility and skill. Not to mention that he can fil in for Sid or Geno as needed at center. He takes face offs, can PK, fast AF, etc.

 

[Riptide]

Sutter. Sutter. Sutter.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Duchene plays center, which is why he is considered a potential "target" for the Pens. The fact that he can also play wing ups his value to the Pens more so than probably any other team considering who his center would be. Nothing is set in stone or made concrete in July. The beauty of Duchene is that he can play 3C with Rust and Wilson. He can play 3C with Hagelin and Kessel, he can play RW with Jake and Sid, he can play LW with Malkin and Kessel, etc, etc.

The versatility is a big factor and would give Sully a lot of different options to deploy lines and attack teams. You thought HBK was a match up nightmare? Imagine adding someone with Duchene's versatility and skill. Not to mention that he can fil in for Sid or Geno as needed at center. He takes face offs, can PK, fast AF, etc.

But that's not related to my point. I was making the point that it's not worth trading for Duchene if you're going to play him on the wing and Duchene himself isn't good enough to justify upending the rest of your roster just to find a spot for him. Duchene wouldn't be a better playoff player than Kessel in my opinion and I don't see people thinking of ways to upend the roster to keep Kessel at whatever costs.

 

[Riptide]

A. That's a huge assumption that you can find a decent replacement for Maatta.
B. It would likely cause the Penguins to have to move Hagelin for a replacement for Maatta, which weakens your wing depth more.
C. The decline on the wing and on defense, with going from Hagelin and Sheary in your top-9 to Wilson and Sprong and Maatta to an Emelin equivalent defensemen you trade Hagelin for, combined is greater than the improvement at center IMO.

B is an assumption - one that only you bring up - and honestly I'm not really sure why. Because the truth is if Sheary and Maatta (and some futures that are not on the roster) go out for Duchene, Pittsburgh would have 13F, 5-6D (NHL ones anyway) and 2G signed with 8.4m in cap space. Figure Dumoulin takes up 3-3.4m (for a nice round number), and that leaves us with 5m to find a Maatta replacement.

Again I'm not saying that Duchene is a realistic target, because I don't think it is. But this odd idea that we'd suddenly have to trade Hagelin is completely false.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Rust - Duchene - Wilson
Archibald - Rowney - Reaves
Kuhnhackl

Dumoulin (3m) - Letang
Cole - Schultz
Hunwick - Ruhwedel

MM/AN

Cap space 5.4m

 

[Darth Vitale]

Stop saying Sutter.

Seconded.


Duchene: I don't have a problem with the 2 year thing because guys like Hags or others could be moved while maintaining the "cornerstone core" potentially. I mean it's not guaranteed we'd be able to keep him but there is a point WRT to that "prime window years" argument. As long as the price to get him isn't absurd which the longer this goes the more likely that is the case. But in theory the 2 year risk part doesn't bug me too much if the price is fair. Always possible we could work some accounting magic.

 

[Rossi Rat]

Suttertron.

I'm surprisingly OK with the Sutter talk - I just wish he brought more for his price tag. Why did Vancouver throw the kitchen sink at him?

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Dumoulin was willing to sign for $3 million, he would have signed by now. Those two guys (Sheary and Dumoulin) will be making a lot of money or something is up with the arbitration projections JR is making if he's only allocating $2 million for the 3rd line center like he said on 93.7.

 

[Nakawick]

^ and there are no prospects included in Riptides line up either,

 

[Riptide]

Suttertron.

I'm surprisingly OK with the Sutter talk - I just wish he brought more for his price tag. Why did Vancouver throw the kitchen sink at him?

They thought he was a "core piece" that they needed in order to win.