Salary Cap: Salary Cap Summer Part 2 | The Hunt for 3C Continued

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Gurglesons

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Dec 18, 2009
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I think we could absolutely take this approach. Some posters just want a perfect roster on sept 1.

The further into the year the higher the prices get. What if Malkin or Crosby goes down with an injury that puts them out until April in the beginning of the season?

What if we lose a Schultz or Letang for the entire year and we need to move players for a defensive replacement?

We don't make the playoffs in some of those situations. It is fine to value cap space, but signing a 4C that can fill in as a 3C is something we literally need to do before the season. Not doing that is a huge mistake, and honestly a huge hit towards us going three for three.
 

ColePens

RIP Fugu Buffaloed & parabola
Mar 27, 2008
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The further into the year the higher the prices get. What if Malkin or Crosby goes down with an injury that puts them out until April in the beginning of the season?

What if we lose a Schultz or Letang for the entire year and we need to move players for a defensive replacement?

We don't make the playoffs in some of those situations. It is fine to value cap space, but signing a 4C that can fill in as a 3C is something we literally need to do before the season. Not doing that is a huge mistake, and honestly a huge hit towards us going three for three.

That's just not true. Your concern about Geno/Sid going out is fair, but your first statement is not true.

At the beginning of the season last year you could have said "Omg.. what if we lose Letang?" And JR grabs a bunch of dmen to fill in spots at the deadline on the cheap.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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What if Matt Cullen decides to come back for a "final-final" year as 4C? What would the options be then for finding a 3C, maybe 2.5M - 3.5M tops?

At what point does JR need to say to MC, I need to know your decision Matt, or does he get welcomed back no matter what? If he's welcomed back, I doubt they're looking at a 3C that wants anything over 3-3.5M. I just don't see them unloading 1-3 players for a 4-5M 3C, right. Because they could have just signed Bonino, like I was saying a while back: "I hope we don't look back and regret not just re-signing NB..

Thinking about it more, Hags is probably the winger they would trade? No?

I gots sooo many Q's. :)

Recent Mackey article says that Cullen has all day unless Rutherford's about to pull the trigger on a deal that means no space for Cullen.
 

CrosbyMalkin

Registered User
Aug 7, 2005
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Me too.

I like that JR hasn't "panic" traded and didn't screw up the core for a 3peat attempt too.
I'm thinking, I consider Phil, Hags, and Horny very much part of the cup-run core. I hope they stay through next season The Penguins have nice chemistry with a blend of speed, youth and experience... For now.

*I HOPE -when the season starts, everyone doesn't look back and say, DAMN... We should just paid Bonino..

I know I won't be saying that about Bonino. I am glad we won 2 Cups with him but this past season he was not able to play at the same playoff level. The HBK line of 2016 was as good as the Crosby and Malkin lines and I really believe JR wants to get a center that can help us have 3 top tier scoring lines. I believe the weaker third line and no Letang was the reason we had a tougher time this year in the playoffs. So if we have an average 3C this year it will be because all of JR's targets could not be pried away. Even if JR has to settle he will still be looking to upgrade during the season to get the fit he wants.
 

Gurglesons

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That's just not true. Your concern about Geno/Sid going out is fair, but your first statement is not true.

At the beginning of the season last year you could have said "Omg.. what if we lose Letang?" And JR grabs a bunch of dmen to fill in spots at the deadline on the cheap.

We had Daley and both Pouliot and Schultz as potential players that could stop gap a top four role if they panned out. If we had resigned Cullen, or brought in a legitimate 4C like Boyle, Desharnais, Moore, etc. that could play 2C in an absolute pinch, I'd feel a little more confident. Right now, we lose one of Malkin or Crosby and Rowney is up there. How do you expect to pull that off in the regular season?

Show me a deal for a legitimate top nine center at or before the trade deadline that we have the roster pieces / prospects / picks to replicate in the last five.

If he makes his deal before the summer, I'll agree with you. If he waits until the season, I completely don't.
 

mrwirez

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Apr 17, 2017
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Recent Mackey article says that Cullen has all day unless Rutherford's about to pull the trigger on a deal that means no space for Cullen.

Ah.. missed that one.

These guy's have a lot of respect for each other. It's sorta nice to see it in the age of everything money.

tanks mang!
 

Brandinho

deng xiaoping gang
Aug 28, 2005
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Ah.. missed that one.

These guy's have a lot of respect for each other. It's sorta nice to see it in the age of everything money.

tanks mang!

Not to say that they don't have mutual respect, but it seems more about practicality than anything. It doesn't benefit us to try and pressure Cullen into making a decision. If Rutherford suspects that he might say no now, but be amenable to signing later, he has every incentive to wait.
 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Registered User
Sep 5, 2008
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That's just not true. Your concern about Geno/Sid going out is fair, but your first statement is not true.

At the beginning of the season last year you could have said "Omg.. what if we lose Letang?" And JR grabs a bunch of dmen to fill in spots at the deadline on the cheap.

The d-men we got were junkyard parts, to be fair. :laugh:

I sort of agree with the sentiment that it gets harder to find your guy and more expensive as the season moves on. We routinely see teams spending big on pretty mediocre players at the deadline. Good players are either supremely expensive or unavailable.

JR cannot wait until the deadline to find his 3C. If he has to pay a little extra to land the guy now, go for it. Especially if it's a significant player like Duchene or Jordan Staal.
 

pokey10

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Apr 26, 2016
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Perhaps JR isnt done dealing with St Louis? Maybe he circles back, considering we did over pay a tad for RR. Or even maybe RR is going to another club? I also feel as though Cole and Rust are expendable and should be talked about more often when it comes to moving pieces...
 

Penske

Kunitz wasn't there
Jan 13, 2016
5,262
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Is it too late to bring back Eric Fehr?

I don't think he'd want to come back. He signed here to play centre and rarely did. He is better in that position than wing. Seems like JR has some options right now he could pull the trigger on but he's holding out for better players/fit.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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Perhaps JR isnt done dealing with St Louis? Maybe he circles back, considering we did over pay a tad for RR. Or even maybe RR is going to another club? I also feel as though Cole and Rust are expendable and should be talked about more often when it comes to moving pieces...

I can't see him going out of his way to get Reaves then trade him away again.

I can see him going back to St Louis but the obvious target is Berglund and he's injured. But then maybe they're that bit more willing to let go of him then and Rutherford's okay carrying the injured guy for a bit.

edit: Before someone says Sobotka, I'm guessing they don't wanna let go of a guy they only just got back themselves. Happy to be proved wrong.
 

SUBdrewgANS

Let's Go Pens!
Dec 4, 2007
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Theres a facebook page that is usually decent at reporting signings and whatnot, but I don't know what their sources are.. But they posted that "The Pittsburgh Penguins are reportedly proposing a Joe Pavelski for Phil Kessel trade offer to the San Jose Sharks."

I very highly doubt that though. Probably a made up summer story to get readers.
 

WheresRamziAbid

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Oct 31, 2013
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Theres a facebook page that is usually decent at reporting signings and whatnot, but I don't know what their sources are.. But they posted that "The Pittsburgh Penguins are reportedly proposing a Joe Pavelski for Phil Kessel trade offer to the San Jose Sharks."

I very highly doubt that though. Probably a made up summer story to get readers.

Probably. But its something to talk about at least.

I would love Pavelski in a vacuum. But he is 3 years older and has only 2 years left on his contract.
 

CertifiedLurker

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Aug 13, 2016
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Theres a facebook page that is usually decent at reporting signings and whatnot, but I don't know what their sources are.. But they posted that "The Pittsburgh Penguins are reportedly proposing a Joe Pavelski for Phil Kessel trade offer to the San Jose Sharks."

I very highly doubt that though. Probably a made up summer story to get readers.

The question that has to be asked is why would the Sharks do that? Trade their center/winger Captain who will inevitably go back to center once Jumbo retires for a winger. Sounds made-up. But then again, you are referring to a facebook post so...
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Sep 13, 2005
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Perhaps JR isnt done dealing with St Louis? Maybe he circles back, considering we did over pay a tad for RR. Or even maybe RR is going to another club? I also feel as though Cole and Rust are expendable and should be talked about more often when it comes to moving pieces...

Why do you say St. Louis? Just curious. Maybe I missed a previous post explaining.

What makes you think Reaves would be flipped? Nothing seems to point to that.

I don't think those two guys are expendable. They're both relatively cheap and Rust can be moved all over the lineup and probably has 20 goals in him. No reason to deal him. As for Cole, I'm not really interested in trading any defensemen right now.
 

SUBdrewgANS

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The question that has to be asked is why would the Sharks do that? Trade their center/winger Captain who will inevitably go back to center once Jumbo retires for a winger. Sounds made-up. But then again, you are referring to a facebook post so...

I too think it sounds made up, but it is summer so.. :laugh:
I assume if it were to happen it wouldn't be straight up
 

Jag68Sid87

Sullivan gots to go!
Oct 1, 2003
35,597
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Toronto's forwards and offensive system won them those games. Not their defensive prowess. I'd also point out the fact Babcock has a knack for making mediocre NHL defenseman look effective throughout his career.

Whatever. I'm not going to get into the Hunwick battle. I don't want ColePens browsing through my post history. I'll let it play out this season, and like I've said since the signing, I bet he is a whipping boy around here by November - December. Especially if one of Letang or Schultz goes down with injury.

I wasn't really referring to Hunwick or Toronto's defense, at all. I was just talking in general terms. Toronto did very well against Washington this past spring, is my only point.

I think Toronto can win with what they have on defense. Maybe not the Cup, but they'll start to make waves this coming spring.

As for Hunwick, he seems to be slightly overpriced for my money, mostly too much term, but I think both JR and Sullivan are convinced that he fits our system to a tee.

I would not be surprised if Hunwick became a big-minute guy for us, like Hainsey was. Different player, but probably a better fit for Sullivan is Hunwick.

Worst-case scenario: Pouliot shows he is ready to take the leap and we have a nice problem of 8 guys battling for minutes.


To answer the question from the previous thread by HOG.

I think signing Archibald to a 2 year one way deal indicates that they plan on keeping him. Plus the organization seems confident that Sprong and ZAR will play for the Pens this year. They of course are waiver exempt, but no one else is. We are bringing in one center and have saved a spot for Cullen and we have Rowney as well. It is a numbers game. Not a guarantee, but a reasonable assumption.
Also the possibility that maybe there is more than one trade if we move a D in our trade for the centre. Maybe we then move a winger for a D.

I don't think the Pens brass thinks any of the kids will jump on the big club this year right out of camp, likely a month or two in if they play incredibly well in the AHL.

As for Archie, yeah maybe they see him as a regular and need to decide on Wilson, Kuhn, and him.

Archibald is the 13th or 14th forward, imo. I don't think he beats out any of the left-wingers, and he is clearly behind the top 4 right-wingers on this team (5 when Sprong is ready). If Archibald played center, I think he would easily move ahead of Rowney on the depth chart.

He is definitely caught in the numbers game here, so I would not be surprised if he is thrown into the deal for a 3C.


Ok, let's start thinking a bit outside box, here.

Let's say we don't acquire anyone before the season starts. Do you think this team can hold down a solid playoff spot without a true 3C for much of the season? All the way to the trade deadline, even?

Here's the thing: as it is right now, this will be the first time since 2013 that we'll have cap space during the season. The further into the season we go, the more that space stretches, due to cap hit proration.

For example, if have 3 million in space to start the season, by the deadline we could add over 7 million worth of player(s).

It is also easier to get teams to retain salary when it's only for part of a season, too.

The further into the year we wait, the more (and bigger) we could add.

Wait until the deadline and we could do something silly like try to get both Sedins for a cup run. (I am not really suggesting this as an example of a good idea.)

If we do not start the season with anyone else to play 3C, I believe the third-line center role becomes Dominik Simon's to lose. I think he is the only C prospect we have who can step into a top-9 role. The problem is he has played a lot of wing in the AHL. The other possibilities are either not ready or limited to 4C possibilities.

I don't think there is any question that JR will make a trade before training camp arrives.


I think the pens trade one of Wilson or Kuhn. Which is ashame. Just so we waste a roster spot for "toughness"

Silly post. Can we all just agree that Reaves is taking Kunitz' roster spot? The kids were here when Kunitz was here, right? If they are no longer here it will be because other kids will beat them out of a job, or the numbers game has caught up to them on the wings.


Perhaps JR isnt done dealing with St Louis? Maybe he circles back, considering we did over pay a tad for RR. Or even maybe RR is going to another club? I also feel as though Cole and Rust are expendable and should be talked about more often when it comes to moving pieces...

Cole, yes. Because of our current cap situation, with Maatta and Schultz signed but Dumoulin still uncertain, Cole could become harder to re-sign before next summer. So I would entertain moving him.

Rust, I just don't see the value in trading a cost-controlled, jack-of-all-trades winger who can just be a plug-and-play guy anywhere.


The question that has to be asked is why would the Sharks do that? Trade their center/winger Captain who will inevitably go back to center once Jumbo retires for a winger. Sounds made-up. But then again, you are referring to a facebook post so...

Sharks have decent center prospects, they like Ryan Carpenter who is not that young, they have high hopes for Daniel O'Regan, and the kid they just drafted (Josh Norris) looks like NHL-material.

I think the Sharks would do that deal to get a little younger, and to acquire a less-dependent scoring winger...someone who produces all on his own.
 

UnderratedBrooks44

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Worst-case scenario: Pouliot shows he is ready to take the leap and we have a nice problem of 8 guys battling for minutes..

Wouldn't that be the best case scenario?


Archibald is the 13th or 14th forward, imo. I don't think he beats out any of the left-wingers, and he is clearly behind the top 4 right-wingers on this team (5 when Sprong is ready). If Archibald played center, I think he would easily move ahead of Rowney on the depth chart.

He is definitely caught in the numbers game here, so I would not be surprised if he is thrown into the deal for a 3C..

I don't think he has any value really. Looked like a spark plug at times and anything but at others. We'll find out quite a bit this year I think.
 

Dipsy Doodle

Rent A Barn
May 28, 2006
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After all the hand-wringing from the overwhelming majority of the board (myself included) over not dealing Fleury last year, and how well that eventually turned out, I'd have thought that everyone would be a lot more inclined to give JR the benefit of the doubt when it came to being patient and waiting for the right move instead of rushing to make one just for the sake of it.

If our board controlled the roster moves, we'd have been ousted in Round 1 last year because Fleury'd have been long gone. People should remember that. JR has more info about this situation than we do, and his patience hasn't hurt us yet.
 

Epic Neal Time

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May 8, 2010
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My assumption is that the Dumoulin/Sheary cases are holding up a trade for a 3C. I think a deal is structurally in place. JR wants to see what Dumoulin, in particular, gets in arbitration before exploring a Maatta trade.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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After all the hand-wringing from the overwhelming majority of the board (myself included) over not dealing Fleury last year, and how well that eventually turned out, I'd have thought that everyone would be a lot more inclined to give JR the benefit of the doubt when it came to being patient and waiting for the right move instead of rushing to make one just for the sake of it.

If our board controlled the roster moves, we'd have been ousted in Round 1 last year because Fleury'd have been long gone. People should remember that. JR has more info about this situation than we do, and his patience hasn't hurt us yet.

This is where I'm at. The man's on a hot streak of knowing when to move and knowing when to wait. Until he comes off that streak I'm trusting him.

Plus, much as we love to speculate and absorb all we can, he's got a lot more knowledge of the situation than any of us.
 

Coastal Kev

There will be "I told you so's" Bet on it
Feb 16, 2013
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I have only one concern heading into this season, are the slightly above average players going to hold up the younger players who have potentially more upside.

This will be a big test for Sully. Nearly every coach prefers to go with the vet over the long haul. Will the organization provide a path for Sprong, ZAR, Archie and Bluegar?

JR could help open spots by trading Kuhn, Wilson and or Sheary. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how it all plays out.
 

Peat

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Jun 14, 2016
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My assumption is that the Dumoulin/Sheary cases are holding up a trade for a 3C. I think a deal is structurally in place. JR wants to see what Dumoulin, in particular, gets in arbitration before exploring a Maatta trade.

I don't think this fits with the most recent article of Mackey's quotes. It sounded like he was pretty confident about what both guys would get and that the main hold up were there were players he wanted who weren't available yet but who he believed would be. Maybe those are the sort of players you end up moving Maatta for but, I think some mutterings from Madden aside, pretty much all the talk has been that if someone gets moved its a winger. Could be there's a hold up in Sheary being tradeable.

Could be that Rutherford wasn't being entirely honest either of course.
 
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