Salary Cap: Salary Cap/Roster Thread - As we look forward

[Riptide]

Honestly, I don't even know that the Senators got a worse return for Hoffman than the Sharks did. The Sharks only got a 2019 2nd, a 2018 4th and a 2018 5th for Hoffman and a 2018 7th, that's honestly not that impressive. I don't know that I'd say that is a better return than Boedker, you can probably get that for Boedker as a rental.

I'm sure if SJ could have gotten that for Boedker without taking salary back, they would have done so. I don't think there would be too many teams lining up to give them a 2nd, 4th and 5th for a guy who scored 25g/63pts over his last 2 seasons.

I think the bigger surprise is that SJ managed to offload Hoffman without taking salary back, while Ottawa and their cheap as f*** owner, took back a 4m cap hit to move him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm sure if SJ could have gotten that for Boedker without taking salary back, they would have done so. I don't think there would be too many teams lining up to give them a 2nd, 4th and 5th for a guy who scored 25g/63pts over his last 2 seasons.

I think the bigger surprise is that SJ managed to offload Hoffman without taking salary back, while Ottawa and their cheap as **** owner, took back a 4m cap hit to move him.

If that's the case, that's probably a good indication that the Penguins won't get back anything for Hagelin, seeing how he has 16 goals and 53 points in his last 2 seasons.

I think the Senators will be able to pretty easily get back a 2nd rounder for Boedker if he repeats next season what he did last season. Look to trade him at the 2019 draft for a 2nd rounder, I think you'd find someone interested in him.

1. Sheary is better than Boedker
2. Boedker is a worse version of Hagelin
3. I'm very sorry for proposing so many bad Boedker trades back in 2015

To be honest, I'm not sure I buy this. I don't know how similar Boedker is to Hagelin outside of them both being really fast, and I also don't know that I'd call Boedker a "worse" version of Hagelin. Boedker seems more skilled and produces more while playing less per game, but Hagelin is much better defensively and also brings an element of grit that Boedker doesn't bring.

 

[Riptide]

And if we can look at the last 2 years, why not look at the last 3 years:

You mean while Boedker was on 2 different teams and Sheary was a rookie playing on the 4th line? Yeah I'm sure that's a great comparable.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You mean while Boedker was on 2 different teams and Sheary was a rookie playing on the 4th line? Yeah I'm sure that's a great comparable.

And in a 2 year sample size, you have Sheary riding shotgun with Crosby and putting up a pace of 70+ points while Boedker has played basically solely 3rd line minutes. Believe it or not, comparing their 2017-2018 seasons is the most logical comparison, because it's the only season in recent memory where they were actually used in similar roles and produced around where they'd normally be producing.

 

[PensandCaps]

If that's the case, that's probably a good indication that the Penguins won't get back anything for Hagelin, seeing how he has 16 goals and 53 points in his last 2 seasons.

I think the Senators will be able to pretty easily get back a 2nd rounder for Boedker if he repeats next season what he did last season. Look to trade him at the 2019 draft for a 2nd rounder, I think you'd find someone interested in him.



To be honest, I'm not sure I buy this. I don't know how similar Boedker is to Hagelin outside of them both being really fast, and I also don't know that I'd call Boedker a "worse" version of Hagelin. Boedker seems more skilled and produces more while playing less per game, but Hagelin is much better defensively and also brings an element of grit that Boedker doesn't bring.

Hagelin and Boedker are not similar players aside from being fast.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Probably why he didn't spend a single penny on investigating any of this months ago when the Karlssons were first being cyberbullied.

Eugene finally found something he didn't want to investigate.

 

[mpp9]

Hoffman and Kane is some serious goal scoring on the wing for SJ.

 

[Gurglesons]

1. Sheary is better than Boedker
2. Boedker is a worse version of Hagelin
3. I'm very sorry for proposing so many bad Boedker trades back in 2015

I would entertain Empo’s argument in 2015. So I would ‘t feel bad.

 

[Gurglesons]

Hoffman and Kane is some serious goal scoring on the wing for SJ.

Well, Hoffman is in Florida, but sure.

 

[Return of the Paek]

To be honest, I'm not sure I buy this. I don't know how similar Boedker is to Hagelin outside of them both being really fast, and I also don't know that I'd call Boedker a "worse" version of Hagelin. Boedker seems more skilled and produces more while playing less per game, but Hagelin is much better defensively and also brings an element of grit that Boedker doesn't bring.

Can't wait until the Pens actually make a move so we don't have to discuss the similarities between Hags and Boedker anymore...

 

[mpp9]

Well, Hoffman is in Florida, but sure.

Lol. Oops.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hoffman and Kane is some serious goal scoring on the wing for SJ.

Hoffman already got traded to the Panthers

Hagelin and Boedker are not similar players aside from being fast.

Yeah, this is what I thought but I wasn't sure. If anything, Boedker seems like a hybrid of Sheary and Hagelin, but in the bad way. Instead of being more specialized like Hagelin or Sheary, he's a mix and isn't really good at either.

Back to a more reasonable topic, @Peat gave a good question here:

Who do you think the best winger is you could get for Rust and Sheary combined (or Rust and Sheary's worth in picks/prospects/dmen garnered from elsewhere?). Just thinking that if Rutherford's willing to move both, why not see if you can use the two of them to trade up in quality.

I'm not exactly sure who'd I'd target, but you can probably pull off a pretty good winger for this package.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Inflated by 1 season of playing with Sidney Crosby. Yes, it doesn't stick out as odd at all that Sheary had a 70 point pace in 1 season and a 30 point pace or below in his 2 other seasons. Nothing odd there.



What a shock: when you use a 2 season sample size, with 1 player having 1 unsustainably good season and 1 player having an unusually bad season, the player with the unsustainable season produces more. Shocking.



It's really not hard to have good possession stats when you're starting 60% of your zone starts in the offensive zone. Sheary only having a CF% Rel of 1.3% in his career, despite starting in the offensive zone 59.2% of the time, isn't an advantage for him. Considering the zone starts and who he plays with, he should be a lot better than that.

Let's break it down. Sheary's a scoring top-9 winger that doesn't provide anything beyond his production. If you put him in a top-6 role, he'll likely produce at a 2nd liner rate, something like 20-25 goals and 40-45 points. Boedker is a 3rd liner that provides solid depth scoring (not as good as Sheary's, but still not bad) and also gives you more beyond that scoring, mainly PKing ability and versatility. There really isn't a huge difference between the two, especially not to the point where Boedker is "terrible" or something like that.

1. Considering he has what 2 full season and some change i dont see how anyone can throw out one year and assume the other (in this case low water mark) is a more accurate picture. Do i expect him to score like 16/17 again...nope, but there is no reason to believe he should score at a 30 point pace either. Id say his career numbers come out in the wash.

2. But it is really hard to have that BAD of possession stats getting 53% of your zone starts in the O Zone playing on either top lines on a bad team or 3rd line on a good team. In both situations he was horrid, in both situations he was significantly worse that the rest of his team.

3. Boedker has averaged 28.7 even strength points per 82, while getting a majority of offensive zone starts and getting absolutley caved (Carter Rowney type caved) in, in possession metrics. All for the low, low price of 4.0 AAV.

Over the last 3 seasons Sheary and Boedker have 85 ev points each depsite Sheary playing 51 less games. You know who else has 85 points ev, in a comparable amount of games? Chris f'ing Kunitz. Except Kunitz can actually positively help his team in possession.

 

[Shaffer]

Please make my Jeff Skinner dream come true JR

 

[Empoleon8771]

1. Considering he has what 2 full season and some change i dont see how anyone can throw out one year and assume the other (in this case low water mark) is a more accurate picture. Do i expect him to score like 16/17 again...nope, but there is no reason to believe he should score at a 30 point pace either. Id say his career numbers come out in the wash.

2. But it is really hard to have that BAD of possession stats getting 53% of your zone starts in the O Zone playing on either top lines on a bad team or 3rd line on a good team. In both situations he was horrid, in both situations he was significantly worse that the rest of his team.

3. Boedker has averaged 28.7 even strength points per 82, while getting a majority of offensive zone starts and getting absolutley caved (Carter Rowney type caved) in, in possession metrics. All for the low, low price of 4.0 AAV.

Over the last 3 seasons Sheary and Boedker have 85 ev points each depsite Sheary playing 51 less games. You know who else has 85 points ev, in a comparable amount of games? Chris f'ing Kunitz. Except Kunitz can actually positively help his team in possession.

Since leaving Arizona, he's been at a 36ish point pace (including his 18 game sample size with Colorado) and has also produced pretty well in the playoffs (8 point in 14 playoff games). I think your description of him in Arizona are pretty accurate, because I don't think he was that good of a player with the Coyotes. He put up at most 35 ES points in a season while consistently playing top line minutes, that's very unimpressive. However, since he moved to San Jose, I don't think his production has been bad at all. He's playing 3rd line minutes and producing how you'd expect a 3rd liner would produce in 3rd line minutes. He even had a very good season last year, 2017-2018 was probably his best career season at ES because of how much he produced in a depth role (as bad as that may sound).

I feel like he's been better since leaving Arizona, he's a better player now than he was in Arizona. He just doesn't have those powerplay points and spoon fed inflating his production anymore to make him look better. He's not a good possession player, but I'm not really sure that shows he's a terrible player. Sheary had a negative CF% Rel this season while getting 55% offensive zone starts, but I don't feel like that shows he had a terrible season. Sheary this season and Boedker in his bad season in 2016-2017 don't really seem all that dissimilar statistically.

Please make my Jeff Skinner dream come true JR

Isn't Skinner a watered down version of Kessel that has just as bad problems as Kessel does?

 

[Riptide]

if we are trying to trade 2 guys that are alike.....why trade? or why would the other team make the trade?

They're only alike in some aspects, but the biggest difference is that Sobotka can play C. Doesn't mean he has to, but if you suddenly want a more defensive 3rd line C, you can switch things up and move Brassard to the wing, and put Sobotka there. He also gives you another PKing center after Sheahan. And these are things he provides in addition to being able to put up similar numbers to Rust.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Sprong/Kessel
Sobotka - Brassard - Sprong/Kessel

OR

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist/Sprong
Brassard - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - Sobotka/Sheahan - Hornqvist/Sprong
XXXXX - Sobotka/Sheahan - XXXXX

Having someone like Sobotka here, immediately gives you the ability to stack the top 6, while still having quality center depth on L3/4. So while there's not many deals I'd trade Rust in... that's probably one of them. And it removes the issue from those complaining about the RW/LW concerns.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well that's not too surprising, considering I said "he was bad in his first season but fine last year". I don't know why you're looking at his overall stats with the Sharks over 2 seasons when I specifically said one of them was bad.

For comparison, Sheary last season had 16 ES goals and 27 ES points last season while playing 12.7 ES minutes a night. Boedker had 11 ES goals and 29 ES points while playing 11.9 ES minutes a night. Boedker also had a lot more defensive zone starts, which explains why his possession stats weren't good. Boedker is a fine player, he's a little overpaid but it's nothing ridiculous.

I'd honestly rather have Boedker on the Penguins than Sheary, I think Boedker would be really useful here. I don't want him at $4 million, but I'd be fine with him at $3 million.

And all of us would be stoked at trading Sheary for a 2nd + 4th.

 

[PensandCaps]

Please make my Jeff Skinner dream come true JR

We need less one way wingers.


Which is why im against trading Rust or Hags. As they are few that play defense and score.

Skinner is Kessel/Sheary bad defensively.

And Guentzel is okay defensively but not good. Getting Skinner would give us way too many defensively bad wingers.

 

[Empoleon8771]

And all of us would be stoked at trading Sheary for a 2nd + 4th.

I think we all agree with that

I think you can probably get a 2nd rounder for Sheary pretty easily, I think the best case scenario is pulling off Buffalo's 2nd for him. Personally, I'd rather try for McCabe over Buffalo's 2nd though. A McCabe for Sheary swap is a move I really like in theory.

 

[Coach Travis]

Lol. Oops.

Hoffman finally wore out his welcome in San Jose.

 

[Gurglesons]

And all of us would be stoked at trading Sheary for a 2nd + 4th.

I wouldn’t. Pointless trade for us at this time. Sheary adds more to our line up than those picks every would.

 

[SEALBound]

Hagelin and Boedker are not similar players aside from being fast.

Hagelin is slightly faster and Boedker has slightly better hands. They play a similar game. Boeds and Sheary are much further apart than Boedker and Hagelin.

Hoffman and Kane is some serious goal scoring on the wing for SJ.

That actually could have been...

Hoffman finally wore out his welcome in San Jose.

Lasted about as long as I would have thought...maybe longer.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Since leaving Arizona, he's been at a 36ish point pace (including his 18 game sample size with Colorado) and has also produced pretty well in the playoffs (8 point in 14 playoff games). I think your description of him in Arizona are pretty accurate, because I don't think he was that good of a player with the Coyotes. He put up at most 35 ES points in a season while consistently playing top line minutes, that's very unimpressive. However, since he moved to San Jose, I don't think his production has been bad at all. He's playing 3rd line minutes and producing how you'd expect a 3rd liner would produce in 3rd line minutes. He even had a very good season last year, 2017-2018 was probably his best career season at ES because of how much he produced in a depth role (as bad as that may sound).

I feel like he's been better since leaving Arizona, he's a better player now than he was in Arizona. He just doesn't have those powerplay points and spoon fed inflating his production anymore to make him look better. He's not a good possession player, but I'm not really sure that shows he's a terrible player. Sheary had a negative CF% Rel this season while getting 55% offensive zone starts, but I don't feel like that shows he had a terrible season. Sheary this season and Boedker in his bad season in 2016-2017 don't really seem all that dissimilar.



Isn't Skinner a watered down version of Kessel that has just as bad problems as Kessel does?

A third liner (role) putting up 3rd line production (Points) while getting sheltered offensive zone starts AND getting crushed in possession both total and relative isnt a good third liner.

He isnt a useless player, but at best its a poor mans 3rd liner.

If your going to hurt your team that much in possession (especially getting good zone starts) you need to overproduce for your role.

Especially for 4 million dollars AAV,

 

[Shady Machine]

So what you're saying is that the points difference between Sheary and Boedker is minimal, and you can easily attribute the difference in possession stats to being both insignificant and a product of how they're used, seeing how Sheary is near 60% for offensive zone start% and Boedker is at 53%? Thanks for clearing that up, really supports the idea that they're pretty similar players.

The important thing isn't even the comparison between Boedker and Sheary, either. The important thing is that Boedker doesn't suck, he's an overpaid 3rd liner that you can use in a variety of ways and can give you good production from your bottom-6.

Why are you obsessed with this?

 

[PensandCaps]

They're only alike in some aspects, but the biggest difference is that Sobotka can play C. Doesn't mean he has to, but if you suddenly want a more defensive 3rd line C, you can switch things up and move Brassard to the wing, and put Sobotka there. He also gives you another PKing center after Sheahan. And these are things he provides in addition to being able to put up similar numbers to Rust.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Sprong/Kessel
Sobotka - Brassard - Sprong/Kessel

OR

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist/Sprong
Brassard - Malkin - Kessel
Hagelin - Sobotka/Sheahan - Hornqvist/Sprong
XXXXX - Sobotka/Sheahan - XXXXX

Having someone like Sobotka here, immediately gives you the ability to stack the top 6, while still having quality center depth on L3/4. So while there's not many deals I'd trade Rust in... that's probably one of them. And it removes the issue from those complaining about the RW/LW concerns.

Sobotka had 31 points in 82 games. While Rust had 38 in 69 games. Although I do like that Sobotka is very good at faceoffs and capable of playing C. If we could get him for Sprong instead of Rust..I'd do it. Then Move out Sheary and Hunwick.

Guentzel-Crosby-Hornqvist
Sobotka-Malkin-Rust
Hagelin-Brassard-Kessel
ZAR-Sheahan-Kuhn


I don't see why they wouldn't take Sprong for a bottom six wing.