Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | We’re going down, down in an earlier round

[cheesedanish87]

San Jose also had some early exits. If the Pens play it right the next few years we should be fine. Issue is JR won’t / is incapable.

I think the damage is already done.

JR basically traded our first round pick every year and now were paying for it.

A 1st round pick for David Perron, i guess you can connect the dots to that trade and say it worked out ok because we eventually got Hags who a big part of the teams first cup run.

A 1st round pick traded away in the Reaves deal.

Trading Kap instead of DP in the Phil deal.

Trading a 1st in the Brass deal.

I'm sure some will say they won 2 cups and it was worth it, but a lot of those 1st round picks that JR gave away had no impact on the 2 cups.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

Well, he’s improved the team point wise every year he’s been there.

True but very marginally (still a bottom 5 team) and I think a lot think he gave away ROR for nothing. Idk just passing on their feelings.

 

[Gurglesons]

I think the damage is already done.

JR basically traded our first round pick every year and now were paying for it.

A 1st round pick for David Perron, i guess you can connect the dots to that trade and say it worked out ok because we eventually got Hags who a big part of the teams first cup run.

A 1st round pick traded away in the Reaves deal.

Trading Kap instead of DP in the Phil deal.

Trading a 1st in the Brass deal.

I'm sure some will say they won 2 cups and it was worth it, but a lot of those 1st round picks that JR gave away had no impact on the 2 cups.

It’s funny because JR is basically the Shero people wanted to blame Shero for being.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Malkin’s issues this year imo were not “Father Time”. Irresponsible D play is not associated with age.

His skills went through a stretch where they evaporated. His finishing is still bad comparatively speaking. Yes, playing with JJ behind him and Kessel alongside him was terrible but still...

I'm not trying to turn this into a Malkin best-thread. I'm just arguing against a "the core is still great/elite, it's the surrounding pieces that need to change" narrative. Malkin is very likely the 15-20th best center in the league by next year. Sid might be regressing offensively. I don't know where Letang's head is at.

 

[Gurglesons]

True but very marginally (still a bottom 5 team) and I think a lot think he gave away ROR for nothing. Idk just passing on their feelings.

Yeah, I mean. What are you supposed to do with ROR tho after those comments?

 

[Gurglesons]

His skills went through a stretch where they evaporated. His finishing is still bad comparatively speaking. Yes, playing with JJ behind him and Kessel alongside him was terrible but still...

I'm not trying to turn this into a Malkin best-thread. I'm just arguing against a "the core is still great/elite, it's the surrounding pieces that need to change" narrative. Malkin is very likely the 15-20th best center in the league by next year. Sid might be regressing offensively. I don't know where Letang's head is at.

Sid was just top five in point production?

Malkin as a top 20 center at his cap hit is fine.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Sid was just top five in point production?

Malkin as a top 20 center at his cap hit is fine.

Fine is not good enough if you're arguing that our core is awesome and the issue is purely that JR has messed up on the supporting cast.

Which to be clear, JR has also messed up on the supporting cast.

 

[LOGiK]

I think the damage is already done.

JR basically traded our first round pick every year and now were paying for it.

A 1st round pick for David Perron, i guess you can connect the dots to that trade and say it worked out ok because we eventually got Hags who a big part of the teams first cup run.

A 1st round pick traded away in the Reaves deal.

Trading Kap instead of DP in the Phil deal.

Trading a 1st in the Brass deal.

I'm sure some will say they won 2 cups and it was worth it, but a lot of those 1st round picks that JR gave away had no impact on the 2 cups.

That is all basically hindsight critiquing though.

 

[Gurglesons]

Fine is not good enough if you're arguing that our core is awesome and the issue is purely that JR has messed up on the supporting cast.

Which to be clear, JR has also messed up on the supporting cast.

Malkin and Sid will be 70-80 point centers at worst. That is 100% good enough to win a cup if surrounded with the right talent.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

Botterill was likely more concerned with ventilating the stench of losers out of the dressing room first and foremost with the arrival of Dahlin and trying to build something new.

Could probably have gotten a better deal though.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

They really need to start holding on to their first and second rounders.

Try a roster shake up by trading some of the core if need be, but they have to stop going “all in” by way of draft picks.

 

[Don'tcry4mejanhrdina]

JR started out making some mistakes (Perron trade, hiring MJ, etc...) but quickly realized his mistakes and won two cups with a clear identity built around speed, attention to details defensively while aggressively attacking the puck and ignoring everything between the whistles. Then he suddenly wanted to change that identity completely to become "tougher". Well, it's been 2 years and the Pens still aren't tough, who the hell do they intimidate? They're no longer fast, or at least don't play that way. No relentless back checking from the forwards, half the defence is overpaid piles of crap. They make the same mistakes over and over again. They have no identity, just a collection of players.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

They really need to start holding on to their first and second rounders.

Try a roster shake up by trading some of the core if need be, but they have to stop going “all in” by way of draft picks.

They were going for an extremely rare three peat chance last season, so I have no problem with JR going all in. He also turned his mistake into two young guys that helped them big time down the stretch.

He also kept his first this season and that will be one of their highest slots in years.

So it could be a lot worse.

JR can build up a lot of young assets this summer if he wants to, it just matters what he deems best for this team going fwd.

 

[seabs926]

Soooo let’s say this bad boy is over... I think (assuming CAR loses) that the Pens will draft 19th?

I would expect the Pens to draft 20th or 21st. Spots 24-31 will be the teams that make it to the 2nd round, Tampa 23rd, Boston/Toronto 22nd, and Sharks 21st (assuming they lose). If the Preds lose we would move up a spot, so potentially 19th.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Go look at where this roster was in 2017. It was fairly easy what we could have done. Look at 2018. De Hann for JJ and you have a huge difference in terms of our record and D. This trade deadline. Acquire Jensen instead of Gudbranson or hell even Beaulieu.

JR has been stabbing himself in the foot for two years and getting a pass for no reason.

de Haan would've been $4.55 mil or maybe more. Better signing yeah. Puts us at even more of a cap crunch? Absolutely. We could've matched the Jensen trade. The Caps were aggressive in getting him though. Plus we would've had to move someone out still I think, like Pearson. Maybe the Wings didn't want to take on a contract that big? I don't know, but that's the thing with this kind of commentary. It's all guess work. Doesn't mean I would go out and get Erik Gudbranson, but the point still stands.

As I've said before, the Brassard deal not working out was the big problem. Almost everyone wanted to see that move happen and almost everyone thought it would work out great. It didn't. Blame JR for that? You could. I can't since it was a move I and many others thought made perfect sense, and I don't think anyone thought Brassard would go from 50+ point center to husk of a human being.

 

[JRS91]

It's not always about getting the better player, but rather a better fit.

Hornqvist for Jarnkrok would be a great deal for the Penguins. Not that I think Nashville would do it, but it's just an example.

 

[Sidgeni Malkby]

JR started out making some mistakes (Perron trade, hiring MJ, etc...) but quickly realized his mistakes and won two cups with a clear identity built around speed, attention to details defensively while aggressively attacking the puck and ignoring everything between the whistles. Then he suddenly wanted to change that identity completely to become "tougher". Well, it's been 2 years and the Pens still aren't tough, who the hell do they intimidate? They're no longer fast, or at least don't play that way. No relentless back checking from the forwards, half the defence is overpaid piles of crap. They make the same mistakes over and over again. They have no identity, just a collection of players.

You don’t need a plethora of players to be tougher. Besides I think the main issue was we needed a deterrent. We have one now in Gudbranson.

Yes we also had one in Reaves but I think the Brassard gamble was the right thing to do. Also getting 2 young players in McCann and Bjugstad really help us in the long run.

They don’t need the entire team to be fast, they just need to play fast.

Right now they are slow and uninspired. They rely on perfect passes then just getting pucks out as quickly as possible in front of players.

We won our 2nd cup with less D talent than we have today.

I still think the team has partially tuned out Sullivan. Why else can’t we get any consistency in the regular season?

 

[molon labe]

Anyone care to indulge in a personnel/numbers discussion versus the topic at hand [differing philosophies]?

If so:
A) What can the Pens expect to receive from the following:
-- Maatta
-- Johnson
-- Schultz
-- Rust
-- Hornqvist
-- Kessel
-- Jarry

B) What can the return for the Penguins represent when it comes to salary cap implications (i.e. trade player for pick(s) - use salary for X)
-- ??

I don't think we should move on from Gudbranson. The more I watch him play, the more he represents what we SHOULD have gotten in JJ. He's better with his head up, he's far better physically, he can fight (which removes the need for a random 4th liner and creates better stability in the lineup night in and night out). Though, if YOU think we should - include that.

 

[Shady Machine]

I really hope if they fire Sully they fire Rutherford. I do not have any faith on JR being the one to sort this out.

But who do they replace him with? I have even less faith in Billy G. They had the perfect succession plan with Botts and then decided the Old Man was still good. Should have "forced" him into a President role.

 

[ILikeTurtles]

Things could be worse just think Tampa Bay. Do you unload Gudbranson or keep him?
What about Letangs health? I don't blame age as much as team chemistry as a whole.

I think you get rid of Gudbranson if you can. Not that he has played poorly, just think you can use 4 million against the cap better.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Things could be worse just think Tampa Bay. Do you unload Gudbranson or keep him?
What about Letangs health? I don't blame age as much as team chemistry as a whole.

You 100% keep Gudbranson unless you have something else lined up where you need his cap space.

 

[TimmyD]

How about Phil+Maatta for Brodin+Fiala and then JJ+2020 3rd for Devin Shore. Then run with

Jake Sid Hornqvist
McCann Malkin Bjugstad
Fiala Blueger Rust
Simon/Johnson Shore ZAR

Dumo Letang
Brodin Schultz
Petterson Gundbranson

Murray
DeSmith

 

[molon labe]

Anyone care to indulge in a personnel/numbers discussion versus the topic at hand [differing philosophies]?

If so:
A) What can the Pens expect to receive from the following:
-- Maatta
-- Johnson
-- Schultz
-- Rust
-- Hornqvist
-- Kessel
-- Jarry

B) What can the return for the Penguins represent when it comes to salary cap implications (i.e. trade player for pick(s) - use salary for X)
-- ??

I don't think we should move on from Gudbranson. The more I watch him play, the more he represents what we SHOULD have gotten in JJ. He's better with his head up, he's far better physically, he can fight (which removes the need for a random 4th liner and creates better stability in the lineup night in and night out). Though, if YOU think we should - include that.

My take:

A) What can the Pens expect to receive from the following:
-- Maatta (2nd rounder from a team out West)
-- Johnson (Package deal involving one of the forwards)
-- Schultz (A solid middle-6 forward)
-- Rust (High pick, packaged w/ our 1st to move up in the draft, or packaged to help the D)
-- Hornqvist (Tough.. offers something every playoff team needs - imagine him on Tampa, but his contract probably prevents us from netting anything higher than a veteran 3-4 D. I'd like to keep him and hope for the rebound)
-- Kessel (A young D with a high upside but has otherwise not proved much, or a younger F/C with less of an upside/cap hit. I've proposed trading him straight up for Radulov many times over and would still gladly do that deal. Or a young player like Parayko. Not sure the true value on him is though. Can see teams like Toronto or EDM loving to have a guy like him but not sure how they could)
-- Jarry (Depends on the goalie market - but I imagine he'll be included in a Maatta deal)

 

[Empoleon8771]

How about Phil+Maatta for Brodin+Fiala and then JJ+2020 3rd for Devin Shore. Then run with

Jake Sid Hornqvist
McCann Malkin Bjugstad
Fiala Blueger Rust
Simon/Johnson Shore ZAR

Dumo Letang
Brodin Schultz
Petterson Gundbranson

Murray
DeSmith

Neither of those teams would accept those deals and you're not even addressing the biggest problems on the roster by trading Maatta and Kessel.

 

[Shady Machine]

A lot of it was natural, though. The core is 2 years older now. ZAR looks like a lesser version of 2016 Kuhnhackl. Simon is nothing even close to what Sheary was, even when Sheary was struggling. Guys like Hornqvist, Schultz, Rust. Murray and Dumoulin look worse now than they did in 2016 or 2017. Not all of the roster downgrades were his doing, either. Sullivan ran Cole out of Pittsburgh. Hagelin declined to the point where they were forced to trade him.

JR has a lot of screw ups since the 2017 cup, but the situation of the team isn't just from moves he has made. I think the bigger problem is that he stuck with players who are a good bit worse now than they were during those cup years.

Most of them are on JR. He CHOSE not to re-sign Bones who wanted to come back and has spent the last 2 years trying to replace him. Bones for Bjugstad isn't making this a series, but all the assets and time spent to backfill Bones could have been used to upgrade roster in other areas or actually have a legit prospect in the pipeline. I got moving on from Daley, but proceeding to sign Hunwick, then dump him and Sheary and then sign JJ is just maddening.

No one had to trade Hagelin and while Guds looks fine, Hagelin is again playing like he can on a Cup contender. A lot of unforced errors for confusing reasons.