Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building | We’re going down, down in an earlier round

[Empoleon8771]

Sugar, we're going down like a collapsing building.

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via CapFriendly
Pearson for Gudbranson trade thread is here.
W-B/S thread is here.

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[Gurglesons]

I really hope if they fire Sully they fire Rutherford. I do not have any faith on JR being the one to sort this out.

 

[heysmilinstrange]

Solid thread title.

 

[Mario_is_BACK!!]

To continue my echo from earlier if you're going to shed payroll this off season before anyone you need to see what you can get for Hornqvist. He's off of a cliff and he's not coming back. He's a hinderance to the team out there. He's a fine third/fourth liner but he's too expensive for that role and he's not even contributing to the power play anymore. Moving Kessel before Hornqvist is more willful negligence by Rutherford.

 

[molon labe]

:: Summer Shuffle ::
1. Management
2. Players
3. Coaching staff

1. GMJR has had his ups and downs, and to completely rip this off from one of you whom I cannot remember- our guys are not getting any younger; can we afford to acquiesce the rue of GMJR one more year?

2. The players need some shuffling. As in - some need to go*

3. The coaching staff. Rex or Sully or both have to go. That being said -there are zero coaches in the NHL who at one point or another did not sour themselves on the fanbase. Are we prepared to hang Sully for the way he played the cards he was dealt?

* Do we all agree that ~2 forwards and 2 defensemen should go? (i.e. Maatta/Johnson, Hornqvist/Kessel)

 

[Empoleon8771]

I really hope if they fire Sully they fire Rutherford. I do not have any faith on JR being the one to sort this out.

They won't and shouldn't fire either of them. Like I said in the series talk thread, you don't fire your coach until it becomes clear that replacing players isn't the solution to the problems. We're not at that point yet because there are quite a few bad (or not good enough) players on this team.

With JR, I don't think the biggest problems with this team stem from the things JR did, I think the biggest problems on this team stem from what JR didn't do. Sure, signing Johnson was a problem, but signing Johnson isn't why this team is in the position its in. The biggest problems on this team come from staleness and regression, which are problems caused by JR not doing enough and keeping the band together.

 

[Gurglesons]

They won't and shouldn't fire either of them. Like I said in the series talk thread, you don't fire your coach until it becomes clear that replacing players isn't the solution to the problems. We're not at that point yet because there are quite a few bad (or not good enough) players on this team.

With JR, I don't think the biggest problems with this team stem from the things JR did, I think the biggest problems on this team stem from what JR didn't do. Sure, signing Johnson was a problem, but signing Johnson isn't why this team is in the position its in. The biggest problems on this team come from staleness and regression, which are problems caused by JR not doing enough and keeping the band together.

JR has directly been responsible for downgrading every depth position on this team since 16-17. Like I get it if it naturally happens, but the amount of assets and cap space he’s spent to essentially have 1 LW and a worse version of Nick Bonino, Ian Cole and Ben Lovejoy is why we are in this situation.

What exactly do you think JR can do to resolve this? He had 100,000 in chips he won and he has whittled it down to 25,000 on Hail Mary bets.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

I don't really see a plan here other than some realistic tweaks. I'm unsure what we would get for Hornqvist, and if they were somehow able to move Kessel it'd be for a few smaller pieces. That could work, but you're going for quantity over quality regardless of what you think Phil is at this stage in his career. I don't know what to realistically expect for Maatta, and we have JJ and Gudbrandson eating up payroll.

You can probably airbrush this team here and there, but I don't know that there are certain magic levers to pull. Been wrong before for sure (hello 2017), but I just personally don't see it, and if people want Sullivan and/or JR gone they can have at it, but time and the salary cap are finally catching up is the story here IMO. Some of this is definitely due to some unforced errors by JR and Sully being a stubborn SOB, but I don't see how any of it does much more than shuffle the deck.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't really see a plan here other than some realistic tweaks. I'm unsure what we would get for Hornqvist, and if they were somehow able to move Kessel it'd be for a few smaller pieces. That could work, but you're going for quantity over quality regardless of what you think Phil is at this stage in his career. I don't know what to realistically expect for Maatta, and we have JJ and Gudbrandson eating up payroll.

You can probably airbrush this team here and there, but I don't know that there are certain magic levers to pull. Been wrong before for sure (hello 2017), but I just personally don't see it, and if people want Sullivan and/or JR gone they can have at it, but time and the salary cap are finally catching up is the story here IMO. Some of this is definitely due to some unforced errors by JR and Sully being a stubborn SOB, but I don't see how any of it does much more than shuffle the deck.

Sid and Letang just had very good years.

Malkin is Malkin. Even at his cap he’s a 70 pt center at worse.

Nothing here is an issue with time. It is an issue with construction and execution.

 

[Slaaapshuter]

Don't wants:

Vanilla players - Out with guys like ZAR, Wilson, Simon
Over the hill players - Cullen, Hörnqvist by the looks of it unfortunately (always said to his detractors to come back once he stops owning the playoffs)
Too comfy's - Rust unless he picks it up, might be time anyway.

Wants:

Skilled D-corps, if it means "lesser" players who fits the mold and do it by committee, then so be it.
Kane, Ferland, Reaves.

Guys like ZAR, Wilson, Simon can be replaced internally surely. Just try guys out and see if anyone sticks. No vanillas, get guys who can do at least one thing really good and who know who they are and what their role is.

I want to see att defense built to transition the puck, main skill is to get the puck out of the zone not defend in it. More speed, physique and tenacity upfront. Be diverse, if skill alone isn't winning a series you need to be able to throw something else in the mix.

Just general thoughts and pipe dreams.

 

[Beauner]

To continue my echo from earlier if you're going to shed payroll this off season before anyone you need to see what you can get for Hornqvist. He's off of a cliff and he's not coming back. He's a hinderance to the team out there. He's a fine third/fourth liner but he's too expensive for that role and he's not even contributing to the power play anymore. Moving Kessel before Hornqvist is more willful negligence by Rutherford.

You look at offloading JJ and Gunbranson first. Possibly Maatta. There is some modicum of possibility that Hornqvist finds his game again.

JJ and Gudbranson are never, ever going to be good hockey players for this team. Our defense after the top pair is a dumpster fire of epic proportions, and one of the most expensive ones in the league at that.

 

[Gurglesons]

You look at offloading JJ and Gunbranson first. Possibly Maatta. There is some modicum of possibility that Hornqvist finds his game again.

JJ and Gudbranson are never, ever going to be good hockey players for this team. Our defense after the top pair is a dumpster fire of epic proportions, and one of the most expensive ones in the league at that.

I guarantee when we lose this series JR and the media double down on JJ harddddd.

 

[gdsmack267]

Anyone else secretly hoping we get embarrassed tomorrow and swept? I just dont see Mario/Morehouse having the balls to actually fire the GM after just extending him.

I have zero confidence in Rutherford admitting the royal screw ups he made the past 24 months and fixing them accordingly.

 

[Gurglesons]

Anyone else secretly hoping we get embarrassed tomorrow and swept? I just dont see Mario/Morehouse having the balls to actually fire the GM after just extending him.

I have zero confidence in Rutherford admitting the royal screw ups he made the past 24 months and fixing them accordingly.

I mean, I obviously want us to win. But, I wouldn’t mind a sweep so I can stop watching them.

 

[Beauner]

I guarantee when we lose this series JR and the media double down on JJ harddddd.

I don't think they can. The haven't fooled the fanbase all year and doubling down will just cause everyone to call them out on their bullshit even more.

There was a shift last night where he went out of position to whiff on a hit, shaded back to the back post, was looking out at the point directing someone to do something, and left 2 guys WIDE OPEN in front of the net. One of them got the puck and Murray made a tremendous save.

But it's every freaking night with this guy. He might be one of the dumbest hockey players I've ever seen and there's absolutely nothing to hide it. I'm sure he's a nice guy and I want him to succeed but he's just really bad.

 

[Coastal Kev]

You look at offloading JJ and Gunbranson first. Possibly Maatta. There is some modicum of possibility that Hornqvist finds his game again.

JJ and Gudbranson are never, ever going to be good hockey players for this team. Our defense after the top pair is a dumpster fire of epic proportions, and one of the most expensive ones in the league at that.

From the Horny Re- Signing page by me:

I've seen this so many times before. Said team has core that has success and can't let go. Yes, it would have been "tough" to see Horny go this summer or even this TDL. The reality is we will have a large majority of our cap wrapped up in guys over 30 and that will eventually make our team out of balance. What year will that happen, group think seems to target 4-5 years down the road. I'm saying it could be sooner than years 2 -3.

I would have moved on from Horny, I would not have signed Hunwick and I would have moved Sheary last offseason. Sprong would have been tied to Sid the entire year and I would bet my right nip he would have much better numbers than Sheary at this point.

Whatever. JR won, JR can do whatever he would like to do.


You can say I wrong about Sprong, but we'll never truly know since he was never given a shot with Sid or Geno. But I do know he would have at least the same production as either Horny or Rust this current playoffs at a fraction of a cost.

​

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Sid and Letang just had very good years.

Malkin is Malkin. Even at his cap he’s a 70 pt center at worse.

Nothing here is an issue with time. It is an issue with construction and execution.

I'm not sure how you can watch this series and say that. These are still really good-to-great players. They're just not at the stage where they can compensate for about 8 non-factors at forward anymore (or half a suspect D corps for that matter).

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm not sure how you can watch this series and say that. These are still really good-to-great players. They're just not at the stage where they can compensate for about 8 non-factors at forward anymore.

And that isn’t on them. That is roster construction.

 

[gdsmack267]

I also cant stand the Pittsburgh media. None of them have the nerve to call the GM out during a live press conference on what a debacle Johnson has been.

 

[Empoleon8771]

JR has directly been responsible for downgrading every depth position on this team since 16-17. Like I get it if it naturally happens, but the amount of assets and cap space he’s spent to essentially have 1 LW and a worse version of Nick Bonino, Ian Cole and Ben Lovejoy is why we are in this situation.

What exactly do you think JR can do to resolve this? He had 100,000 in chips he won and he has whittled it down to 25,000 on Hail Mary bets.

A lot of it was natural, though. The core is 2 years older now. ZAR looks like a lesser version of 2016 Kuhnhackl. Simon is nothing even close to what Sheary was, even when Sheary was struggling. Guys like Hornqvist, Schultz, Rust. Murray and Dumoulin look worse now than they did in 2016 or 2017. Not all of the roster downgrades were his doing, either. Sullivan ran Cole out of Pittsburgh. Hagelin declined to the point where they were forced to trade him.

JR has a lot of screw ups since the 2017 cup, but the situation of the team isn't just from moves he has made. I think the bigger problem is that he stuck with players who are a good bit worse now than they were during those cup years.

 

[JRS91]

You don't fire Rutherford or Sullivan yet.

Rutherford has made some good moves, he's just been pretty mediocre in free agency. Aside from Matt Cullen, can you name a single good free agent signing Rutherford has made since 2014? I honestly can't think of one. I think that's where Botterill really shined, he probably advised against doing things like trading for Reaves or signing Johnson.

If the Penguins are eliminated Tuesday, they have all the time to think about making moves . They need to get younger, faster, and more skilled. That's what helped them win in 2016 and 2017; speed and skill. That said, what I think they should do is probably different from what they'll actually do. I think Kessel is gone and Maatta is gone. Sullivan likes Rust and Simon so I doubt they're moved. Rutherford wants an enforcer despite us not needing one, so Gudbranson stays. Of course the obvious stay; Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Guentzel, Dumoulin and Murray. I don't see Bjugstad, McCann, Blueger, Schultz, Pettersson or DeSmith going anywhere either, so it basically comes down to a few guys.

 

[Empoleon8771]

You look at offloading JJ and Gunbranson first. Possibly Maatta. There is some modicum of possibility that Hornqvist finds his game again.

JJ and Gudbranson are never, ever going to be good hockey players for this team. Our defense after the top pair is a dumpster fire of epic proportions, and one of the most expensive ones in the league at that.

Why do the Penguins need to move Gudbranson? He has been good for the Penguins. I really don't know what games you've been watching by saying the Pettersson-Gudbranson pair is a "dumpster fire" and the top pair is apparently fine.

 

[Gurglesons]

A lot of it was natural, though. The core is 2 years older now. ZAR looks like a lesser version of 2016 Kuhnhackl. Simon is nothing even close to what Sheary was, even when Sheary was struggling. Guys like Hornqvist, Schultz, Rust. Murray and Dumoulin look worse now than they did in 2016 or 2017. Not all of the roster downgrades were his doing, either. Sullivan ran Cole out of Pittsburgh. Hagelin declined to the point where they were forced to trade him.

JR has a lot of screw ups since the 2017 cup, but the situation of the team isn't just from moves he has made. I think the bigger problem is that he stuck with players who are a good bit worse now than they were during those cup years.

No. JR didn’t offer him a contract which has been widely reported. Just like Bones.

I completely disagree with the notion our core is somehow worse now. Jake and Sid just had great years. Letang was in Norris contention. Schultz looked very good last year.

The issue is trades for Sheahan, Johnson, Bjugstad, Gudbranson. And the backing of players like ZAR and Desmith by management.

I don’t find it odd you’re trying to blame this on age or inane media stories about Cole as you’ve defended a majority of the decisions that have gotten us here as “not that bad”.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Should they stay or should they go?

Sully - stays
JR - fired yesterday. Please. I wish he'd have already retired.

Alphabetically - forwards
ELC/RFA forwards (ZAR, Simon, Blueger) - keep them but all are available for the right price.
Bjugs - keep him. Bad reflection on us if we deal him again.
Cullen - he's going to retire. Besides, it's time to move on.
Jake - these 3/4 games have probably caused his value to dip. I'm only trading him for a #1D anyway. So he stays.
Hornqvist - thanks, man. But bye.
Kessel - his effort during this series has me reconsidering him for a bit...but he's still a deteriorating asset who is dependent on a powerplay that he also kills at times. Bye.
Malkin - look, as an organization you have to do right by your legends. He's only gone if he asks out, and I don't see that happening.
McCann - available for a top-4 D. Like, a legit one. Otherwise we'll keep him.
Rust - we can't lose all of our RWs in 1 offseason and the other two are greater priorities. He has been miserable since coming back from his latest injury, though. I loved him before that.


Defense
Jacques and Gonchar gone immediately.

Dumo - I'm listening. I think he's a very good defenseman but I fail to understand what he's doing out there sometimes. Perhaps there are external factors; playing Ryan Clark to Letang's Polamalu may not come that easily to him anymore. Or maybe he could benefit from a system change.
Guds - sigh. I guess he can stay.
JJ - I'm willing to go up to a 3rd rounder to dump this contract. Anything beyond that is gravy.
Letang - A great player but not untouchable to me. When the team plays better without him you have to seriously question him. He cultivates dependence in his teammates when he's on the ice.
Maatta - go away.
Petterson - I'd really like to keep him but there are trade scenarios, especially where we're trying to move Kessel and land a big fish on D, where he could prove very valuable in the trade market.

 

[Empoleon8771]

No. JR didn’t offer him a contract which has been widely reported. Just like Bones.

JR didn't offer him a contract because Sullivan ran him out of town. He was traded in the Cole deal because he didn't have a future here due to Sullivan.

I completely disagree with the notion our core is somehow worse now. Jake and Sid just had great years. Letang was in Norris contention. Schultz looked very good last year.

Crosby was better in 2015-2016 under Sullivan and 2016-2017 than he is now. Schultz hasn't been "very good" since 2017. Malkin and Kessel were both massive problems during the second half of the year. Rust and Hornqvist look like shells of what they once did. Dumoulin and Maatta are also worse now than they were then.

The issue is trades for Sheahan, Johnson, Bjugstad, Gudbranson. And the backing of players like ZAR and Desmith by management.

I don’t find it odd your trying to blame this on age as you’ve defended a majority of the decisions that have gotten us here as “not that bad”.

I guess if you pretend that the core somehow isn't clearly worse now than it was 3 years ago, I guess you can conclude that.