Salary Cap: Salary cap+roster building: To Malkin or not to Malkin?

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If that's their plan, they're also forgetting the fact those teams likely match whatever offer JR gives them. Only way they don't is if JR so massively overpays them that the salary will likely end up hurting the Pens more than than helping them.

Like, if they offer sheet Marner for $11 million or less, Toronto's matching that. They'd have to give Marner McDavid or higher salary before Toronto would back off. And at that point, the Pens are severely hampering their own cap situation.

In Marner's case, Toronto is in a really tough spot, man. It's not as simple as just simply matching an $11 million a year offer. They're going to have to part with significant assets, namely Marleau and his bad contract, in order to match. Marleau's got a NMC too, so good luck moving a $6.25 million dollar, 40 year old guy when he controls all the cards and apparently adores the team/city. Marleau legitimately loves Toronto, the city and the team, particularly the young guys. I think it's going to be exceptionally difficult for Toronto to move the guy in an effort to clear some cap to get Marner on board.

Point in Tampa is another seriously difficult situation for that team. They have Point and his impending huge raise to deal with, a huge portion of their blueline to re-sign--including Stralman, who is not going to come cheap at all, and a colossal Vasi deal waiting in the wings.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He's not the only person that thinks this. JR will need to trade several other players if he wants to get rid of that thinking.

Don't give JR any ideas.

Imagine this roster minus Geno, Phil and Tanger. That's what it could look like if JR decides to "cut out the malcontents".

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

I agree with the people who say we'll likely lose in a trade but it isn't in a vacuum. Say we trade Geno, Phil, Maatta, JJ. We get young up and coming guys on good cap hits and prospects. At the same time we use the cap space to sign Duchesne and Karlsson. We're then free to keep Schultz or move him depending on circumstances.

I'm not saying this exactly would happen. It would be tough to swing. I'm just saying this doesn't have to be the end.

Just an example. This should be at least close cap wise and not only do you have the current stable of prospects pushing Simon and ZAR but you have anyone picked up in the series of trades. At least one of those X's would have to be a young talented scoring winger though. Maybe a slight initial fall off but you fix the D and when the new young guys start to contribute, look out.

Jake - Sid - Rust
McCann -Duchesne- X
X - Bjugstad - Horny
Simon - Blueger - ZAR

Dumo - Letang
Petts - Karlsson
Riikola/X - Schultz/Gudbranson

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Pretty clear he thinks this organization is going in the wrong direction. You don't talk about the system (and not adapting), speed (i.e., team construction), and arrogance if you think otherwise.

The question is whether he wants out.

I don't think we see all this stuff if Geno didn't make it absolutely clear he either A. wants colossal changes to some combination of roster/GM/coach, or B. he flat out wants to be dealt so he can chase another Cup before his NHL career is over.

 

[Andy99]

FLA isn’t trading for Malkin...they’re looking to get Panarin and Bob, and they’re not going to have the money to sign Geno...they’re not a cap team...I really don’t see anyone who’d be interested in Geno unless they’re in a Cup window now and for the next couple years...forget our division and I don’t see any contending team in the Atlantic having space or interest in him (Boston has old centers in Bergeron and Krejci)....Winnipeg has cap issues and G won’t go there; Nashville, maybe but they have to dump cap space like Turris and Subban, Blues don’t need a top two center, Dallas maybe...Vegas, no, Sharks don’t need a top two center with Joe leaving even and they won’t have the space, Calgary, doubtful and he likely won’t go there...Colorado, maybe but picking up older players like that with term on the contract isn’t really their MO...

So at best, maybe two teams out West have an interest...I don’t think the Pens are going to get much but maybe dumping him is not for the return but for the culture shift and cap space...either way, I hope not

 

[KIRK]

He's not the only person that thinks this. JR will need to trade several other players if he wants to get rid of that thinking.

Well, in JR's mind, it's far easier to trade anyone who questions the direction of the organization than it is to take a good, hard look at his body of work over the last 20 months.

 

[KIRK]

FLA isn’t trading for Malkin...they’re looking to get Panarin and Bob, and they’re not going to have the money to sign Geno...they’re not a cap team...I really don’t see anyone who’d be interested in Geno unless they’re in a Cup window now and for the next couple years...forget our division and I don’t see any contending team in the Atlantic having space or interest in him (Boston has old centers in Bergeron and Krejci)....Winnipeg has cap issues and G won’t go there; Nashville, maybe but they have to dump cap space like Turris and Subban, Blues don’t need a top two center, Dallas maybe...Vegas, no, Sharks don’t need a top two center with Joe leaving even and they won’t have the space, Calgary, doubtful and he likely won’t go there...Colorado, maybe but picking up older players like that with term on the contract isn’t really their MO...

So at best, maybe two teams out West have an interest...I don’t think the Pens are going to get much but maybe dumping him is not for the return but for the culture shift and cap space...either way, I hope not

The Panthers owner is a billionaire. A Malkin for Trotchek swap adds 4M. If they can do that AND get Panarin and Bob, they'll be a cap team.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

In Marner's case, Toronto is in a really tough spot, man. It's not as simple as just simply matching an $11 million a year offer. They're going to have to part with significant assets, namely Marleau and his bad contract, in order to match. Marleau's got a NMC too, so good luck moving a $6.25 million dollar, 40 year old guy when he controls all the cards and apparently adores the team/city. Marleau legitimately loves Toronto, the city and the team, particularly the young guys. I think it's going to be exceptionally difficult for Toronto to move the guy in an effort to clear some cap to get Marner on board.

Point in Tampa is another seriously difficult situation for that team. They have Point and his impending huge raise to deal with, a huge portion of their blueline to re-sign--including Stralman, who is not going to come cheap at all, and a colossal Vasi deal waiting in the wings.

They have enough cap space that they could move a guy like Kadri or even Nylander if they desperately need to make room for Marner. Kadri's probably gone anyway after two straight dumb suspensions in the playoffs.

It's not an ideal situation, but the Leafs can clear room to match an offer sheet for Marner. They'd have to do some retooling afterward, but they can do it in the moment.

 

[KIRK]

I don't think we see all this stuff if Geno didn't make it absolutely clear he either A. wants colossal changes to some combination of roster/GM/coach, or B. he flat out wants to be dealt so he can chase another Cup before his NHL career is over.

I don't think it was that brutal, but yes, I'm sure he voiced concern about the direction of the organization and when he got pushback at least intoned that maybe it's best if everyone moves on,

 

[Andy99]

The Panthers owner is a billionaire. A Malkin for Trotchek swap adds 4M. If they can do that AND get Panarin and Bob, they'll be a cap team.

The owner is cheap...that’s why they had to dump Bjugs to make space for the moves they wanted to make in FA...I bet you anything that FLA would not be in the mix if they’re actually entertaining offers for G...

 

[Andy99]

Well, in JR's mind, it's far easier to trade anyone who questions the direction of the organization than it is to take a good, hard look at his body of work over the last 20 months.

This guy needs to be fired and I can’t understand why Mario and Ron don’t see this as well...

 

[Ugene Magic]

New thread is up.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

They have enough cap space that they could move a guy like Kadri or even Nylander if they desperately need to make room for Marner. Kadri's probably gone anyway after two straight dumb suspensions in the playoffs.

It's not an ideal situation, but the Leafs can clear room to match an offer sheet for Marner. They'd have to do some retooling afterward, but they can do it in the moment.

I think one of those two is gone regardless, but Marleau is going to have to be moved either way.

I don't think it was that brutal, but yes, I'm sure he voiced concern about the direction of the organization and when he got pushback at least intoned that maybe it's best if everyone moves on,

I don't think Geno's the kind of guy to speak up unless he feels absolutely strongly about the situation. Geno's never really been anything less than the "good soldier" for this team, despite playing a very obvious second fiddle to Sid in the organization's eyes.

The only other time I can remember Geno being said to be this unhappy is back in the Therrien days, where Therrien called him into his office and grilled him to the point of Geno basically saying "Go f*** yourself, watch your mouth or I'm out." And, well, a 21 year old generational talent that's a 110 point player already has a bit more push in that situation than a present day Geno does. In the case of the 21 year old, you do anything you have to in order to solve that situation. In the case of today's Geno, well, maybe you really sit and think about the future.

 

[KIRK]

The owner is cheap...that’s why they had to dump Bjugs to make space for the moves they wanted to make in FA...I bet you anything that FLA would not be in the mix if they’re actually entertaining offers for G...

I think you're wrong there, but we'll see . . .

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

Right, but like I said, they're focusing on this like it's the *only* reason we failed this year. JR doubling down on how this current defense is the best he's had during his time in Pittsburgh just reinforces the idea that they don't see anything wrong with the roster, just the core (mainly Malkin, Letang, Kessel) not buying in.

That's my issue. I'm not absolving Geno (or Kessel or Letang) for any sort of poor play. My issue is the organization doesn't seem to even see anything wrong with how the team is constructed, and that the only cause of our downfall was our stars not buying in.

See, I think the main cause was our team not buying in. It's been a blatant problem all season. Fixing the D helps but that alone doesn't make this a Cup team, IMO.

 

[KIRK]

I think one of those two is gone regardless, but Marleau is going to have to be moved either way.


I don't think Geno's the kind of guy to speak up unless he feels absolutely strongly about the situation. Geno's never really been anything less than the "good soldier" for this team, despite playing a very obvious second fiddle to Sid in the organization's eyes.

The only other time I can remember Geno being said to be this unhappy is back in the Therrien days, where Therrien called him into his office and grilled him to the point of Geno basically saying "Go **** yourself, watch your mouth or I'm out." And, well, a 21 year old generational talent that's a 110 point player already has a bit more push in that situation than a present day Geno does. In the case of the 21 year old, you do anything you have to in order to solve that situation. In the case of today's Geno, well, maybe you really sit and think about the future.

That's why I read a lot into Geno's comments on the night the Pens were eliminated.

 

[66-30-33]

The Panthers owner is a billionaire. A Malkin for Trotchek swap adds 4M. If they can do that AND get Panarin and Bob, they'll be a cap team.

Trotchek and Vatrano most likely so Panthers gain 2.26M in cap space and we lose 2.26M in cap space.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The owner is cheap...that’s why they had to dump Bjugs to make space for the moves they wanted to make in FA...I bet you anything that FLA would not be in the mix if they’re actually entertaining offers for G...

It had nothing to do with the owner being cheap. Florida wanted to shed cap and get expiring contracts to go hard after Panarin and Bob (said to be essentially a package deal) this summer. So much so that they even hired Coach Q, Panarin's boy, to coach the team.

I don't think for a second that Florida would kill to have Geno centering their second line, and I'm sure Geno would absolutely love to live in South Beach year-round. It's just a matter of whether or not they can make a deal for him work.

 

[KIRK]

STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD

@ColePens or @BHD, please lock this one. @Ugene Malkin started a new thread.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

That's why I read a lot into Geno's comments on the night the Pens were eliminated.

"We're not champions anymore, we have to accept that" or something to that effect... Yeah, that should've been the first red flag.

 

[66-30-33]

@KIRK DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!!

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

And they were playing some good hockey in October when Geno was at 2 points per game and playing with Hags....and they were playing some good hockey the first three weeks of March when G was still in the lineup and his play improved...and they were playing some good hockey with Letang before he got injured Feb 23...so let’s not make more out of cause and effect ....

I'm definitely not taking the position the Pens are a better team without either or both players; rather, that it doesn't necessarily mean losing Malkin means disaster. I'd be delighted if Malkin was happy, enjoyed complimentary wingers and good blue line support, but have started to wonder if that is just fantasy. If so, the sooner we start fixing it, the better. Sid ain't getting younger.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD

@ColePens or @BHD, please lock this one. @Ugene Malkin started a new thread.

Last.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Edit: I can't read, moving this to the other thread.