Salary Cap: Salary cap+roster building: To Malkin or not to Malkin?

[KIRK]

That assumes JR has a design and isn't just randomly knee jerk reacting to everything.

Oh he is knee jerking, but it clearly is to SOMETHING going on with Malkin that is severe enough that he's being removed from all of the future speak.

Is it that they want to trade him because of insubordination or his game?

Is it that he's intoned that he'd like to move on?

Was it Malkin's end of season comments that just started a ****storm?

Who knows. But, it's pretty clear this 100% is real.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yeah, I think the only thing we're discussing here is the backstory about why, how far along it is, and what it will take for deal to happen given the unknown circumstances.

I've no doubt the trouble started after the Washington series last summer. We heard rumors about Kessel being furious he wasn't with Geno, butting heads with Sully, etc. I'm sure Geno himself wasn't too happy either. This season of miserable hockey, miserable decisions by the GM, and another season of having to listen to Sully's abrasive barking in his ear probably just tipped the scales for Geno. He knows the clock is ticking, he knows his body takes intense punishment every season and it'll eventually be too much, he knows the roster is multiple, significant moves away (and moves that can't miss or else they put us back further) from legitimate contention again.

It all adds up and this is probably the kind of thing that leads to Geno wanting to chase one last Cup elsewhere. Even during the season, we saw an interview (Friedman maybe? can't remember) with Sid and Geno where the interviewer said "Hey Geno, you thought about leaving in the past and being 'the guy' on your own team..." and Sid sort of looked surprised and asked if it was true, to which Geno admitted. Geno's always been the secondary guy, this was, is, and always will be Sid's team, for better or worse. To think Geno would want to do his own thing elsewhere is not out of the realm of possibility whatsoever, and I wouldn't hold it against him for a single second.

 

[Andy99]

U

I don't know that he asked for one directly.

I don't know that he didn't at least intone that moving on might be best for everyone involved.

That’s the same thing practically...again, someone needs to ask him if he suggested he wanted to go to another organization...I don’t believe it until I hear it from him, and he’s honest with the fans..I’ll respect him if he comes out and says JR hasn’t a clue and Sully doesn’t know what he’s doing and he has a better chance of winning somewhere else and he wants out...if that’s the case, then he should go...whatever he wants...he’s brought this organization a lot, and he doesn’t deserve this **** he’s getting no matter what happened between him and the coaching staff this year..

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

So you think Trotchek, an elite prospect, and a 1st? I think Trotchek and a 2nd. I suspect one team MIGHT step up somewhere in the middle in terms of value.

I'm a little less sure it will be a boon or not for the organization, because I just don't trust JR with these kind of moves anymore. That said, I suspect it will be a boon for Geno.

No, I think a situation where we see Trocheck sees Trocheck and a 1st, or Trocheck, an elite prospect, and a 2nd.

If we're getting a guy like Trocheck, we're getting lesser value from the other two assets for sure. If it's a situation where we're getting a guy to make the cap work for the other team, he's not really going to be a Trocheck-caliber guy, but we're going to be getting an elite prospect and a 1st in that sort of deal, I think.

But I'm with you on JR. Zero faith in the guy whatsoever.

Geno's a guy someone is going to pay premium for in an effort to give them that big push over the edge to a Cup. There's a significant arms race happening, particularly out West. There's a deal out there for sure, JR just needs to find it. It won't help us win now, but it will absolutely set us up to be a much stronger team in a few years.

 

[Pancakes]

Speaking of Friedman, he hasn't written a 31 thoughts in over two weeks unless I'm mistaken. Interested to read his next one, since I'm sure he'll comment on all that is going on with us.

 

[ChaosAgent]

Yes...I don’t think Geno’s year was as bad or out of character as you and others say...the -25 was an anomaly but it involved a lot more bad luck, as he happened to be coming on or getting off the ice many times a goal occurred, especially in OT...and some of it involved Phil as well...he was still over a point per game, and he still takes risks in the NZ, misses assignments, can lazily float around at times and takes terrible penalties...this is par for the course for Geno over his career...this year, in part because of playing with Phil, playing with JJ, and pure bad luck, his positive O contributions were outweighed by his mistakes and D lapses...but that’s who he’s always been as a player and let’s not overstate it...we’ve lived with him and loved him for years, despite that...

No, the weighting has always been positive contributions >>> mistakes/D lapses/floats/penalties aside from maybe the Tyler Myers year. Until this one.

We can't sugarcoat how bad he was this year by his standards. Yeah he still scored some points and bigger-yeah he was saddled with Phil, JJ and Maatta...but Malkin in his heyday overcame partnership with some pretty bad players and the Penguins outplayed opponents when he took the ice.

My expectation is that Malkin bounces back somewhat next year, but due to aging he's going to be a run-of-the-mill 1C and not a superstar anyway. He's going to be a lot closer to Toews and Backstrom than Crosby and McDavid. Hockey trades are made for run-of-the-mill 1Cs, but very few of them are living legends in their town like Malkin.

I wouldn't completely hate a hockey trade involving him if he asked out and we got a reasonable return. I'd definitely still want his jersey in the rafters. But I don't want senile JR making that trade, either.

 

[Andy99]

No, the weighting has always been positive contributions >>> mistakes/D lapses/floats/penalties aside from maybe the Tyler Myers year. Until this one.

We can't sugarcoat how bad he was this year by his standards. Yeah he still scored some points and bigger-yeah he was saddled with Phil, JJ and Maatta...but Malkin in his heyday overcame partnership with some pretty bad players and the Penguins outplayed opponents when he took the ice.

My expectation is that Malkin bounces back somewhat next year, but due to aging he's going to be a run-of-the-mill 1C and not a superstar anyway. He's going to be a lot closer to Toews and Backstrom than Crosby and McDavid. Hockey trades are made for run-of-the-mill 1Cs, but very few of them are living legends in their town like Malkin.

I wouldn't completely hate a hockey trade involving him if he asked out and we got a reasonable return. I'd definitely still want his jersey in the rafters. But I don't want senile JR making that trade, either.

It was a bad year and I expect him to bounce back too but his play that people complain about are nothing new for him...it’s just the positives didn’t outweigh the mistakes, as you say...that’s no reason to trade him...

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

How you feel about a Geno or Letang deal revolves entirely around how you feel about this team's chances at winning another Cup within the next three years, with JR at the helm and this blueline. If you think we're a move or two away from legitimately competing again, you're probably not too keen on moving Geno and/or Letang, because you're never going to see a return coming back that helps us win now more so than those guys. If you think this team is circling the drain, has a multitude of significant moves that need made, and it's not realistic to expect to compete again before Geno's (final, imo) contract is up, you're way more open to the idea of moving Geno and/or Letang, because it makes no sense to hold on to them simply for sentimental reasons.

I think Phil is absolutely gone, I've thought that for a year now, and I think we'll be better for it. I think Maatta's absolutely gone, and I think we're better for it regardless of the return. I think Geno's up in the air, and Geno himself will have the final say one way or another. I think Letang's also up in the air, but if he's moved it'll be the organization moving him as opposed to the situation with Geno, where the player makes the decision. I'd love to see JJ and Gudbranson moved as well, since I don't think they have a place in today's NHL. I'd like to see Horny shopped heavily, if for no other reason than to get an understanding of his value and the teams interested for a stronger push to move him by next summer.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Imagine shopping Evgeni ****ing Malkin because he won’t commit to playing more of a checking game. I really hope Madden’s sources are bad.

Geno better start playing more like ZAR if he wants to get out of the doghouse.

 

[Andy99]

How you feel about a Geno or Letang deal revolves entirely around how you feel about this team's chances at winning another Cup within the next three years, with JR at the helm and this blueline. If you think we're a move or two away from legitimately competing again, you're probably not too keen on moving Geno and/or Letang, because you're never going to see a return coming back that helps us win now more so than those guys. If you think this team is circling the drain, has a multitude of significant moves that need made, and it's not realistic to expect to compete again before Geno's (final, imo) contract is up, you're way more open to the idea of moving Geno and/or Letang, because it makes no sense to hold on to them simply for sentimental reasons.

I think Phil is absolutely gone, I've thought that for a year now, and I think we'll be better for it. I think Maatta's absolutely gone, and I think we're better for it regardless of the return. I think Geno's up in the air, and Geno himself will have the final say one way or another. I think Letang's also up in the air, but if he's moved it'll be the organization moving him as opposed to the situation with Geno, where the player makes the decision. I'd love to see JJ and Gudbranson moved as well, since I don't think they have a place in today's NHL. I'd like to see Horny shopped heavily, if for no other reason than to get an understanding of his value and the teams interested for a stronger push to move him by next summer.

Can you think we’re two to four moves away from contending with the current core, and that it’s possible. AND think the current FO will be incapable of overseeing the turnaround?....

 

[Andy99]

Geno better start playing more like ZAR if he wants to get out of the doghouse.

Or Wilson...or Simon...he just needs to be incapable of putting the puck in the net and he’ll be fine...

 

[ChaosAgent]

How you feel about a Geno or Letang deal revolves entirely around how you feel about this team's chances at winning another Cup within the next three years, with JR at the helm and this blueline. If you think we're a move or two away from legitimately competing again, you're probably not too keen on moving Geno and/or Letang, because you're never going to see a return coming back that helps us win now more so than those guys. If you think this team is circling the drain, has a multitude of significant moves that need made, and it's not realistic to expect to compete again before Geno's (final, imo) contract is up, you're way more open to the idea of moving Geno and/or Letang, because it makes no sense to hold on to them simply for sentimental reasons.

I dunno. Sentimental reasons aren't nothing. I know it doesn't intrinsically make sense, but nothing about sports fandom really does.

I agree with the rest of your post from a logical standpoint.

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's the problem. You can't really trade your way better, unless:
#1 you gamble on a reclamation project (Daley, Schultz, Pearson - ugh) = strike gold!
#2 get a player being run out of town (Kessel) = strike gold!
#3 if you are overloaded in one spot and weak in another = good place to be in to balance the team out!
#4 you trade youth potential for talent = win now!
#5 you trade talent for youth potential = rebuild!
#6 you trade like players hoping both teams benefit (aka PK for Weber) = tough one to figure out.

Outside of trades, it's either draft of UFA.

We haven't been involved in enough #2s lately, and have been over-gambling on #1s.

So what does a Letang trade get us?
Is Dumoulin our new 1D?
or is Pettersson going to be our future 1D?
or are we going to draft someone and develop them over the next 5 years?
Is Karlsson at $10M-$11M a better deal?

If we're having to doing trades to "send messages" vs "making the team better" then Sullivan has lost the team and it's time for him to go IMO.

You're not going to get better by trading Letang, you're trading Letang to be better in the future and extend the cup winning window with Crosby and Malkin. You're trading Letang in an attempt to extend your cup window for 5 or 6 years, instead of it slamming shut within 1 to 3 years. If they're trading Letang, I imagine they'd be trying to target a prime aged #3 puck moving RD (someone like Petry) and a top-9 forward. It would be similar to the Neal for Hornqvist trade, the Penguins will be getting 2 lesser pieces in an attempt to cut out some of the issues and become a deeper team overall.

 

[Beauner]

When they're saying similar things AND not only isn't there pushback from the GM but instead he feeds it.

BTW, I'm really starting to wonder if you may be right about Malkin having said something, if not an actual trade request then intoning that perhaps all should move on.

I'm not sure it makes sense otherwise anymore, unless the idea is to plant the seeds for a deal from a PR perspective.

I just think given how this has played out with all parties, it's a bit further along than those old school annual 'Malkin to LA' or 'Malkin to Chicago' rumors.

If they're playing some kind of PR angle, they're stupider than we all thought (which is saying something)

Can anyone even fathom the backlash thatd come from the fanbase if they traded him? Forget about the return, there would be total anarchy

 

[Empoleon8771]

Imagine shopping Evgeni ****ing Malkin because he won’t commit to playing more of a checking game. I really hope Madden’s sources are bad.

I listened to Madden, that's not why the team is rumored to be mad with Malkin. They're mad because Malkin continues to try to be a 1 man show out there when his body and the league just won't allow him to do so. He's not adjusting his style to play a team game, he instead wants to play as an individual. It's not working anymore and he's refusing to change, hence why they're pissed about it. It's not about him not being physical enough, it's him refusing to fall in line with the rest of the team and actually play like a team member.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Or Wilson...or Simon...he just needs to be incapable of putting the puck in the net and he’ll be fine...

In all seriousness, I do get that Geno's effort this season wasn't very good and that they should be a little bit miffed at it. But it's like they're missing the big picture by focusing so much on Geno and not enough on the actual roster holes plaguing this team.

It's like if you list the 50 things that went wrong with the club this season, Geno's effort/commitment is probably around 48th or 49th on that list. Yet that's the one the organization seems to think was the number one reason we failed this year.

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

So certainly this confirms that Madden is very plugged into JR. It's clear JR wants to dump Geno. The question is: do Mario & Burkle, or can JR get Geno to ask out to where it's a moot point anyway?

This is why I'm not freaking out and saying to gut the front office. If Mario allows this to happen then it is probably for the best. He isn't going to let go of someone as loved as Geno unless it is completely necessary. We'll never know what exactly is going on behind closed doors. Maybe Geno is even talking about going to the KHL earlier than anticipated. Who knows. But I trust Mario and Burkle to make sure the right decision is made. I'll still be extremely disappointed but it is what it is at that point.

I have to give credit to @KIRK , he called this early in the season. Oct-Nov. He saw Geno's body language as something seriously wrong, like nothing he's seen from him before.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I dunno. Sentimental reasons aren't nothing. I know it doesn't intrinsically make sense, but nothing about sports fandom really does.

I agree with the rest of your post from a logical standpoint.

Can you think we’re two to four moves away from contending with the current core, and that it’s possible. AND think the current FO will be incapable of overseeing the turnaround?....

It depends on the magnitude of those moves. I think every single person around believes that JJ and Maatta are must-move guys, as well as Gudbranson. That's half a blueline that not only needs to be removed, but replaced with significantly better options. That alone, is an incredible undertaking that probably doesn't happen in the span of one calendar year. Then, you need to replace Phil and Horny with younger options that are better fits, particularly at ES. That, again, is a substantial undertaking.

This team can compete again with a reshuffled roster, but even if things go without a hitch, we're looking at another year or more of moves and shuffling around of pieces to get back to a strong position as a contender. That doesn't give us a lot of time to get going for another run at a Cup before Geno's out in three years, and I don't think it's realistic to see this team pull a complete about-face with regard to its approach either.

JR's got to go, and we need to initiate a rebuild, aiming to compete again in three years or so. Like others have said, it's not a rebuild starting from square one like a normal rebuild; We have Sid, who will be a significant player for us well into his mid to late 30s, we have Jake, we have Murray, we have Rust, McCann and Bjugstad. We've got pieces in place that will help us win in the foreseeable future, but we need to go through a ton of changes, whether your aim is to win before Geno's gone, or rebuild for the near future.

 

[66-30-33]

If Malkin goes I think it will be either Colorado, Florida, Nashville, or Sharks if Thornton retires and Karlsson leaves.

 

[KIRK]

No, I think a situation where we see Trocheck sees Trocheck and a 1st, or Trocheck, an elite prospect, and a 2nd.

If we're getting a guy like Trocheck, we're getting lesser value from the other two assets for sure. If it's a situation where we're getting a guy to make the cap work for the other team, he's not really going to be a Trocheck-caliber guy, but we're going to be getting an elite prospect and a 1st in that sort of deal, I think.

But I'm with you on JR. Zero faith in the guy whatsoever.

Geno's a guy someone is going to pay premium for in an effort to give them that big push over the edge to a Cup. There's a significant arms race happening, particularly out West. There's a deal out there for sure, JR just needs to find it. It won't help us win now, but it will absolutely set us up to be a much stronger team in a few years.

That's where I think a team steps up.

Look, I know he liked New York and Montreal, and would be open to either destination (I know . . . he's not going in division unless there's no way at all to avoid that, and even then they'd tell him forget it). He likes LA, but the two area teams are messes. I suspect he could be open to Boston, but I can't see JR sending him there.

Teams where I think he COULD be open in the west . . . St Louis (Tarasenko, coming team), Dallas (Radulov, Gonchar lives there now), Colorado (just a gut feeling . . . but ZERO chance they even consider putting 4OV or Makar into play unless it's Malkin+ coming the other way for 4OV), Nashville (again, just a gut). I can't see him going for Winnipeg or Calgary (even with the history with Maurice).

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

In all seriousness, I do get that Geno's effort this season wasn't very good and that they should be a little bit miffed at it. But it's like they're missing the big picture by focusing so much on Geno and not enough on the actual roster holes plaguing this team.

It's like if you list the 50 things that went wrong with the club this season, Geno's effort/commitment is probably around 48th or 49th on that list. Yet that's the one the organization seems to think was the number one reason we failed this year.

I get the impression that they feel Geno is supposed to be a leader and him not playing the right way rubs off on the rest of the team. You add Letang and Phil to him and that's probably too many "exempt from the rules" guys for the team to handle. Soon half of the team is lackadaisical in terms of details and responsibility.

 

[KIRK]

I'm a time traveler.

The 'Who Shot JR (After The Malkin Trade)' episode will be a ratings bonanza.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

If they're playing some kind of PR angle, they're stupider than we all thought (which is saying something)

Can anyone even fathom the backlash thatd come from the fanbase if they traded him? Forget about the return, there would be total anarchy

They're absolutely feeding the fanbase this stuff through team-controlled channels in an effort to lessen the blowback in the event of a scenario where Geno is dealt. This isn't hearsay, this isn't guys making up rumors because there's dead air between elimination and the draft or July 1st. This is a very real campaign by the team to save face in the event that a fan favorite and legendary player is moved because the team is in shambles and he wants out.

 

[Beauner]

It depends on the magnitude of those moves. I think every single person around believes that JJ and Maatta are must-move guys, as well as Gudbranson. That's half a blueline that not only needs to be removed, but replaced with significantly better options. That alone, is an incredible undertaking that probably doesn't happen in the span of one calendar year. Then, you need to replace Phil and Horny with younger options that are better fits, particularly at ES. That, again, is a substantial undertaking.

This team can compete again with a reshuffled roster, but even if things go without a hitch, we're looking at another year or more of moves and shuffling around of pieces to get back to a strong position as a contender. That doesn't give us a lot of time to get going for another run at a Cup before Geno's out in three years, and I don't think it's realistic to see this team pull a complete about-face with regard to its approach either.

JR's got to go, and we need to initiate a rebuild, aiming to compete again in three years or so. Like others have said, it's not a rebuild starting from square one like a normal rebuild; We have Sid, who will be a significant player for us well into his mid to late 30s, we have Jake, we have Murray, we have Rust, McCann and Bjugstad. We've got pieces in place that will help us win in the foreseeable future, but we need to go through a ton of changes, whether your aim is to win before Geno's gone, or rebuild for the near future.

Oh hey, someone who actually has common f***ing sense and isnt keen on trading a top 3 player in franchise history for magic beans just because he hurt the coaches feelings.

I swear this ordeal, from jr to the media, has been like watching toddlers trying to figure out how to construct a bridge

 

[KIRK]

If Malkin goes I think it will be either Colorado, Florida, Nashville, or Sharks if Thornton retires and Karlsson leaves.

Funny that I just posted right after you.

Forgot Florida. Yes, I think he'd be open, and there's a deal to be done around Trotchek.

Colorado would be VERY interesting. Nashville I could see.

Don't forget STL and Dallas because of buddies.

Can't see San Jose if Thornton retires and Karlsson leaves. I mean, if Thornton leaves, sure. But, if they lose a few guys like that, the allure goes down a bit, no?