Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: The Calm Before the Storm?

[Jules Winnfield]

Wrong. Hornqvist was fine right up until his injury on Jan 8th (I'm guessing on the exact date, but I bet that's pretty close). After that his production plummeted.

Wrong lmfao. I didn’t say anything about Hornqvist’s production. All I was saying was Hornqvist went off the deep edge in the locker room about being pissed that Hagelin was traded.

 

[Jules Winnfield]

How was Kessel an instigator and less coachable?

What brought Malkin down was playing without Hagelin and with a **** transition defense behind him because one of Letang or Schultz was injured pretty much all year.

Because Brassard sucked and Kessel forced the coach’s hand to play him with Malkin. Both Kessel and Malkin were frustrated with injuries on their line, who they had to play with, trades, etc. They both teamed up so they wouldn’t have to break their duo up. Ever see the smirks from Sully on the bench when they made bonehead defensive gaffes?

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

It’s one thing to believe that the culture is sour 5 years of disappointment after a Cup. You have to wonder if it’s just a deflection if you’re only 24 months removed from back to back Cups.

Nah. It's pretty obvious that the culture was off last season. We saw it with our own eyes with the inconsistent effort levels and the lack of dedication to each other and to the system/team identity. JR said it was becoming a problem in Nov. Brass and Sheahan talked about it. Dupuis talked about it. The media talked about it.

 

[billybudd]

Neither Joe Morrow nor Derrick Pouliot were qualified. I don't know if either are that much worse than Jack Johnson, and both would be significantly less expensive.

Loathe as I am to admit anybody is worse than Jack Johnson, there's a good bit of distance between him and those two. Given the choice of having him at his bad cap number and one of them at $800k, I take Johnson, unfortunately.

 

[jaric1862]

Just curious, would the pens be one of the teams interested in Kadri if he were available or are they too close to the cap/satisfied with their third line center situation?

 

[AuroraBorealis]

Just curious, would the pens be one of the teams interested in Kadri if he were available or are they too close to the cap/satisfied with their third line center situation?

We got 3.9mil to sign Pettersson, Blueger and ZAR. Only way we'd have space for Kadri is if Kessel left.

The Gudbranson+Johnson contracts are killers too. You can ship them off I suppose, but at what cost? We need our high-end picks for the future. This team's nearing the end of its window.

Pittsburgh Penguins - CapFriendly - NHL Salary Caps

Kadri's an awesome player but the sacrifices to bring him would be too much. He should be a 2C somewhere. Too good for 3C IMO.

 

[T1K]

There must be something severely wrong with Hartman but on a very cheap deal he could be a good 4th line wing.

Maybe give Bret Ritchie a camp invite.

I read an article speculating that they didn’t qualify Hartman because of concerns about how much he could get from arbitration.

 

[Turin]

The Pens lost Tocchet and a lot of veterans that held the locker room together. The room went to **** last year led by Kessel. They saw Kessel bringing Malkin down with frustration and to a lesser extent Letang. The Malkin and Letang rumors weren’t an accident. They were to send a message to get your **** together.

I’m a big Kessel fan but he ran his course last year with spoiling the locker room. It wasn’t all his fault either though. 50% of the locker room issues were on Sullivan and the lack of having a mediator coach between him and the players and the players tuning out the yelling and dictator style. 25% was on GMJR and bad deals and bad timing for deals. The Hagelin deal was the icing on the cake for nuking the locker room last year and what caused Malkin and Hornqvist to go off the deep edge. The other 25% was on Kessel for being the instigator in the room and not being as coachable as in previous years. Sully frequently yelling doesn’t get good responses from Kessel, Malkin or Letang.

Fair enough but then I think the biggest move (besides moving JJ) should be to get a new assistant. I also think most of the Penguins problems were playing Johnson and Brassard and Schultz being injured, and if they didn’t have that happening they would have won more games, and winning games creates a good culture, and Hagelin wouldn’t have been stupidly dealt.

 

[billybudd]

Just curious, would the pens be one of the teams interested in Kadri if he were available or are they too close to the cap/satisfied with their third line center situation?

He's a good player, but I don't see how he works for us. Our needs are a defenseman and young blood at forward.

 

[Peat]

It’s one thing to believe that the culture is sour 5 years of disappointment after a Cup. You have to wonder if it’s just a deflection if you’re only 24 months removed from back to back Cups.

I'm willing to agree with the idea that it is a deflection, and that maybe Rutherford isn't paying enough attention to the mistakes he made and blaming it all on the players not buying into his genius masterplan, but I can't agree that it's *just* a deflection. It makes no sense to me for there to be no culture problem when there was so many mutters of locker room discontent and so many soulless performances.

And I am dubious as to the idea that the desired roster changes in terms of playing style would fix all of that and put all the toothpaste back in the tube. It makes sense to me to refresh on both sides of the equation.

I'd also like to point out that what Rutherford is saying in public and what he actually believes aren't always the same thing, so we don't know to what extent he's blaming it all on the players in his mind.

edit: p.s. Seen the other part of the post - replacing Recchi with someone who counters Sully's personality a bit better seems like a really obvious move. Part of me wonders if they were hoping Gonchar would do that.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Hagelin was a critical factor in getting Evgeni Malkin a full season and 98 points in 2018.

If Malkin needs Hagelin to play well, not having Hagelin isnt the oroblem.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

The flip for Gudbranson, although seemed horrible when it happened, ended up saving it a little. The straight Hagelin for Pearson was bad.

Disagree, i fully understand how good Hagelin is at certain aspects, but in his last two seasons here he was averaged a 28, yes 28 point pace playing mostly the 2nd line for 4 million dollars.

Yeah i get Pearson wasnt exactly hot stuff. But he did the same playing lower in the lineup and playing a month with a pretty serious injury IIRC. And was considerably better if you would isolate his time on line 2 while not injured.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

How was Kessel an instigator and less coachable?

What brought Malkin down was playing without Hagelin and with a **** transition defense behind him because one of Letang or Schultz was injured pretty much all year.

What brought Malkin down was Malkin.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The fallout from the Reaves fiasco is epically bad...

They gave up:
• Sundqvist
• Cole
• Gustavsson
• Sheahan
• 2017 first-round pick
• 2018 first-round pick
• 2018 fifth-round pick
• 2019 second-round pick
• 2019 third-round pick
• 2019 fourth-round pick
• 2019 fourth-round pick

They now have:
• Hallander
• McCann
• Bjugstad

I feel like this is an incredibly dumb way of evaluating trades.

 

[Peat]

Disagree, i fully understand how good Hagelin is at certain aspects, but in his last two seasons here he was averaged a 28, yes 28 point pace playing mostly the 2nd line for 4 million dollars.

Yeah i get Pearson wasnt exactly hot stuff. But he did the same playing lower in the lineup and playing a month with a pretty serious injury IIRC. And was considerably better if you would isolate his time on line 2 while not injured.

I don't think it makes sense to judge players on their points, but instead on how much the team can dominate the ice and score sheet with them on the ice in combination with various team mates. Hagelin made all of our stars better, bad hands or no. Pearson scored more points, but he didn't make players better. Maybe he would have if he'd had time to settle and rebuild his confidence - maybe not. But Hagelin was a hell of a lot more valuable than 28 points says.

And as an attempt to shake up the locker room's mentality, it backfired spectacularly.

At the time I thought it was probably a good trade, although a bit risky. With 20/20 hindsight, it was just bad. But at least it seems to have been the end of that straight run of disastrous trades he made *touches wood*.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

If literally no one wants Johnson on their team, I'd go:

• Pens [Team A] send Johnson and a 5th round pick to Team B for a conditional pick*
• Team B sends Johnson at 28% retained ($910,000) to Team C for a conditional pick*
• Team C sends Johnson at 22% retained ($715,000) back to the Pens for a 6th round pick
• *the conditions on the picks are "Johnson games played" based for Team B/C, which won't be hit
• The Pens then send Johnson @ 50% ($1,625,000) to the minors
• Johnson then only counts as $550,000 against the cap
• Johnson can be recalled IF needed -- and hopefully claimed

Yes, this is very unlikely.


Alternatively, if the Ducks GM still has interest in Johnson I'd gladly send him there for Patrick Eaves.

 

[froods]

Disagree, i fully understand how good Hagelin is at certain aspects, but in his last two seasons here he was averaged a 28, yes 28 point pace playing mostly the 2nd line for 4 million dollars.

Yeah i get Pearson wasnt exactly hot stuff. But he did the same playing lower in the lineup and playing a month with a pretty serious injury IIRC. And was considerably better if you would isolate his time on line 2 while not injured.

It’s not all about points

 

[froods]

If literally no one wants Johnson on their team, I'd go:

• Pens [Team A] send Johnson and a 5th round pick to Team B for a conditional pick*
• Team B sends Johnson at 28% retained ($910,000) to Team C for a conditional pick*
• Team C sends Johnson at 22% retained ($715,000) back to the Pens for a 6th round pick
• *the conditions on the picks are "Johnson games played" based for Team B/C, which won't be hit
• The Pens then send Johnson @ 50% ($1,625,000) to the minors
• Johnson then only counts as $550,000 against the cap
• Johnson can be recalled IF needed -- and hopefully claimed

Yes, this is very unlikely.

A for creativity. If this happened you are going to jail for insider trading, lol.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

A for creativity. If this happened you are going to jail for insider trading, lol.

Thanks. Literally one of the first things I was taught in college was to not put down an outlandish idea. You never know when that outlandish idea will need to become a reality. Still lives with me to this day.

CC @ownal

 

[NMK11]

If literally no one wants Johnson on their team, I'd go:

• Pens [Team A] send Johnson and a 5th round pick to Team B for a conditional pick*
• Team B sends Johnson at 28% retained ($910,000) to Team C for a conditional pick*
• Team C sends Johnson at 22% retained ($715,000) back to the Pens for a 6th round pick
• *the conditions on the picks are "Johnson games played" based for Team B/C, which won't be hit
• The Pens then send Johnson @ 50% ($1,625,000) to the minors
• Johnson then only counts as $550,000 against the cap
• Johnson can be recalled IF needed -- and hopefully claimed

Yes, this is very unlikely.


Alternatively, if the Ducks GM still has interest in Johnson I'd gladly send him there for Patrick Eaves.

I thought you couldn't trade for someone in a season once you've already traded them if there is retention? Probably to stop just this sort of thing.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

I thought you couldn't trade for someone in a season once you've already traded them if there is retention? Probably to stop just this sort of thing.

I checked the CBA yesterday. These situations aren't allowed:

• Team A retains money on Player Z and sends to Team B. Team A cannot take back Player Z for at least another year or until their contract expires. See Hagelin.
• Team A sends Player Z to Team B. Team B then retains money on Player Z and sends them back to Team A.

The situation in my post you quoted is technically allowed, because there's a Team C.

 

[froods]

Thanks. Literally one of the first things I was taught in college was to not put down an outlandish idea. You never know when that outlandish idea will need to become a reality. Still lives with me to this day.

CC @ownal

It breeds creativity for sure. Most times the outlandish idea is not implemented but elements of it are and that becomes a great idea.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

It breeds creativity for sure. Most times the outlandish idea is not implemented but elements of it are and that becomes a great idea.

Like my idea at work 1+ year ago to build bridges for our pipe in order for it to span distances above ground. People didn't take it seriously then, but now we may have to.

Those f***s...

 

[froods]

Like my idea at work 1+ year ago to build bridges for our pipe in order for it to span distances above ground. People didn't take it seriously then, but now we may have to.

Those ****s...

That sounds expensive, LOL!

 

[The GM]

He's a good player, but I don't see how he works for us. Our needs are a defenseman and young blood at forward.

Rob Lowe is in his fifties now, not sure he fits where we are trying to go