Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: Stanley Cup Champions Summertime Blue's...

[smetana]

Honestly pointing to the Blues defense as some type of powerhouse is odd.

They had Bortuzzo, Gunnarson and Edmunson playing regular minutes.

Those are strong "Western Conference" 5-6 D-men. Not much mobility or puck movement, but frankly, any of the three of them are better defensively than anybody the Penguins currently employ on defense. Yes, even Bobby Bortuzzo, if you haven't watched his improvement since leaving here. I'd take any of the three over anybody here not named Letang, Dumoulin, or Schultz.

 

[PensandCaps]

Those are strong "Western Conference" 5-6 D-men. Not much mobility or puck movement, but frankly, any of the three of them are better defensively than anybody the Penguins currently employ on defense. Yes, even Bobby Bortuzzo, if you haven't watched his improvement since leaving here. I'd take any of the three over anybody here not named Letang, Dumoulin, or Schultz.

Lol none of those Dmen are better defensively than Letang and Dumo.

Lmao BORTUZZO. He's a #6-#7 Dman.

bortuzzo and washed gunnarsson are better Dmen than Letang and Dumoulin, appartley.

Theyre not even better than f***ing Maatta defensively.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let's recap all of the players on this team:

1. Hornqvist has a full NTC, so you're not trading him
2. It sounds like JR isn't finding a deal he likes for Kessel, so the chances of them keeping him are going up.
3. You're not going to be able to trade Johnson or Gudbranson without taking a comparable contract back.
4. Moving Bjugstad does nothing for change, because you only had him for 20 games last year.
5. Schultz is coming off a terrible, injury plagued year, so you'd be basically giving him away if you moved him right now.
6. You're not moving McCann and Pettersson and probably not moving ZAR, Blueger and Simon.

This team just got swept in the 1st round 2 months ago, and they weren't even competitive in 3 of the 4 games. The only players you can pretty easily move are Maatta (who will need to be moved to clear up cap space), Rust and Dumoulin. So are people really going to die on the hill of "I don't want to trade anyone worth anything" for a team that just got embarrassed in the 1st round last year? If you want to do anything this off-season, trading Maatta and at least one other highly paid player is absolutely necessary. If you refuse to give up any of your highly paid players that you can actually trade, you'll go into next year with the same flawed team as the team that got embarrassed last year.

 

[smetana]

Lol none of those Dmen are better defensively than Letang and Dumo.

Lmao BORTUZZO. He's a #6-#7 Dman.

bortuzzo and washed gunnarsson are better Dmen than Letang and Dumoulin, appartley.

Theyre not even better than ****ing Maatta defensively.

You're wrong, friend. Watch them play awhile. You could argue Dumo is better, but Maatta is not, and Letang is also not. All three of those St. Louis guys are well-coached defensive defensemen.

 

[iFishyHD]

Jack Johnson + picks (2021 2nd and 2021 5th?) to Ottawa for Zach Smith @ 50% (1.625M against the cap for 2 years)

Smith has tw0 years left on his deal, has the same cap hit as JJ , and Ottawa buried him in the AHL last year. Ottawa gets a 2nd and a 5th to absorb 4.875M for the next two years with JJ and the retention, then have JJ on the hook for the last two years of his deal. Smith has a NTC, but getting out of Ottawa (especially after they placed you on waivers and nobody claimed you and Ottawa proceeded to send him to Belleville) has to be a blessing. Smith had 28 points in 70 games last year, he could be a piece for the fourth line. Worst case scenario we send him to the AHL as well or trade him again, but now he's got a much more manageable contract.

Another idea I had to dump JJ on Ottawa is JJ+ for Cecis rights, and then the Penguins could just flip Ceci.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Jack Johnson + picks (2021 2nd and 2021 5th?) to Ottawa for Zach Smith @ 50% (1.625M against the cap for 2 years)

Smith has tw0 years left on his deal, has the same cap hit as JJ , and Ottawa buried him in the AHL last year. Ottawa gets a 2nd and a 5th to absorb 4.875M for the next two years with JJ and the retention, then have JJ on the hook for the last two years of his deal. Smith has a NTC, but getting out of Ottawa (especially after they placed you on waivers and nobody claimed you and Ottawa proceeded to send him to Belleville) has to be a blessing. Smith had 28 points in 70 games last year, he could be a piece for the fourth line. Worst case scenario we send him to the AHL as well or trade him again, but now he's got a much more manageable contract.

Another idea I had to dump JJ on Ottawa is JJ+ for Cecis rights, and then the Penguins could just flip Ceci.

Smith played in 70 games last year and put up 29 points, they didn't bury him in the AHL. I also think there's no way that Ottawa of all teams takes on Johnson's contract plus retaining money on their own cap dump. I think it's even less likely that they take Johnson's contract for Ceci's rights.

Any JJ trade is going to be JJ+ for another bad $3-$4 million player who's signed for 3-4 years. You're going to have to take back a guy like Rask, Beagle, Helm or Abdelkader for him.

 

[molon labe]

Go look at his evolving hockey page for last year. I can't post a screenshot here, but his numbers are absolute crap compared to what they have been in the past.



Oh okay, so let's make no changes then and just pray that last year was a fluke? Because that's basically what you're suggesting.

I really have no clue what team some people in here watched last year. We can't trade Kessel because he puts up points, we can't trade Rust because his value is low....so who are they going to move? Is this going to be the day 1 lineup next year? Because it really sounds like some people here want this:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
McCann-Malkin-Kessel
Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Some WBS winger

Dumoulin-Letang
Johnson-Schultz
Pettersson-Gudbranson

It comes off as shi-talking, but I often claim these folks didn't watch the Pens - or moreso watched the NBC games occasionally; however, I don't think I'm that far off.

It wasn't just last year either. Our run in 2018 was just as bad but Sid, Jake, and Hornqvist nearly pushed us past the Caps before they went on to win it all. That combo masked a TON of our difficiencies that everyone kept chalking-up to injuries. We sucked, but nobody wanted to admit it. Geno, Kessel, Brassard, and a slew of other players were simply written-off as if they were playing broken.

Had we recognized then that we needed a shakeup, we wouldn't have had to watch our team flounder all damn year only to be embarassed in the first round. People in here claming stupid things based on basketball takes "ppg winger!" "Johnson is the only issue!" ...whatever the case, clearly don't understand what happened to this team.

We went from a team with:
A) Tons of surplus value in contracts
B) Depth, roster flexibility (Kessel playing on line 2/3, young guns playing lines 1-4, two 3C's rounding the bottom lines, etc), and 'specialists' (i.e. Hags)
and C) A mediocre defense that had purpose in the right areas

to a team with 3 surplus value contracts (Sid, Jake, Murray), tons of iffy contracts, zero roster flexibility (guys only working with one or two other guys), a horrible C traded for a wing we are trying to make into a C, no depth scoring, and a mediocre defense with questionable skills in the right/wrong areas - who are paid like a top-tier defense.

 

[Pancakes]

Let's recap all of the players on this team:

1. Hornqvist has a full NTC, so you're not trading him
2. It sounds like JR isn't finding a deal he likes for Kessel, so the chances of them keeping him are going up.
3. You're not going to be able to trade Johnson or Gudbranson without taking a comparable contract back.
4. Moving Bjugstad does nothing for change, because you only had him for 20 games last year.
5. Schultz is coming off a terrible, injury plagued year, so you'd be basically giving him away if you moved him right now.
6. You're not moving McCann and Pettersson and probably not moving ZAR, Blueger and Simon.

This team just got swept in the 1st round 2 months ago, and they weren't even competitive in 3 of the 4 games. The only players you can pretty easily move are Maatta (who will need to be moved to clear up cap space), Rust and Dumoulin. So are people really going to die on the hill of "I don't want to trade anyone worth anything" for a team that just got embarrassed in the 1st round last year? If you want to do anything this off-season, trading Maatta and at least one other highly paid player is absolutely necessary. If you refuse to give up any of your highly paid players that you can actually trade, you'll go into next year with the same flawed team as the team that got embarrassed last year.

I want changes, but I also think it's dangerous to overreact to one 4 game series. The absolute most the major change should go to is moving Kessel. Malkin should 100% be off limits, as should Letang. Moving Letang or Malkin are rebuild moves, and as long as we have Sidney Crosby we're not rebuilding.

 

[iFishyHD]

Let's recap all of the players on this team:

1. Hornqvist has a full NTC, so you're not trading him
2. It sounds like JR isn't finding a deal he likes for Kessel, so the chances of them keeping him are going up.
3. You're not going to be able to trade Johnson or Gudbranson without taking a comparable contract back.
4. Moving Bjugstad does nothing for change, because you only had him for 20 games last year.
5. Schultz is coming off a terrible, injury plagued year, so you'd be basically giving him away if you moved him right now.
6. You're not moving McCann and Pettersson and probably not moving ZAR, Blueger and Simon.

1. Nashville could use Hornqvist again, we just traded his best friend away months ago, maybe Hornqvist would go back to Nashville. I think Hornqvist would have more suitors then Kessel if made available, so you never know if he would waive for a team. We're in a real pickle if Kessel and Hornqvist are supposed to both play on the 3rd line. One of them has to bump up, Crosby nor Malkin want Hornqvist 5v5, and Sullivan and Kessel, well, yeah.
3. I mean yeah if your doing it 1 for 1, but if we add, we could likely find some salary relief.
4. Moving Bjustad is sort of like moving Rust, you might have to in order to add a better piece or a piece that fits better. In Bjustads case I think he's more likely to stay because he can play C and W. If we're upgrading to a 3C who is a sure fire better bet for Phil (Bozak as an example) and Hornqvist is on Malkins RW, then well, he's got to go.
5. I think you could still get a pretty decent return especially if we could trade him with an extension, however I've said before I think it makes the most sense to keep him as our own rental, for this year. The RD trade market this offseason is top heavy (Trouba, Spurgeon, Barrie are all worth their weight in gold times two) and the RD UFA batch this year isn't as good as the one next offseason.

Skipped 2 and 6 for obvious reasons.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I want changes, but I also think it's dangerous to overreact to one 4 game series. The absolute most the major change should go to is moving Kessel. Malkin should 100% be off limits, as should Letang. Moving Letang or Malkin are rebuild moves, and as long as we have Sidney Crosby we're not rebuilding.

I wasn't including Malkin, Letang or Murray in any of those discussions, the discussion was about players after them. I'm not saying "blow up the team", I'm saying that refusing to trade anyone like Kessel or Rust and only wanting to trade cap dumps like Johnson is basically saying "I want the same team next year as the one that got swept last year". This team has been horribly flawed for 2 years now, yet some people still advocate for basically no changes.

 

[Turin]

It comes off as shi-talking, but I often claim these folks didn't watch the Pens - or moreso watched the NBC games occasionally; however, I don't think I'm that far off.

It wasn't just last year either. Our run in 2018 was just as bad but Sid, Jake, and Hornqvist nearly pushed us past the Caps before they went on to win it all. That combo masked a TON of our difficiencies that everyone kept chalking-up to injuries. We sucked, but nobody wanted to admit it. Geno, Kessel, Brassard, and a slew of other players were simply written-off as if they were playing broken.

Had we recognized then that we needed a shakeup, we wouldn't have had to watch our team flounder all damn year only to be embarassed in the first round. People in here claming stupid things based on basketball takes "ppg winger!" "Johnson is the only issue!" ...whatever the case, clearly don't understand what happened to this team.

We went from a team with:
A) Tons of surplus value in contracts
B) Depth, roster flexibility (Kessel playing on line 2/3, young guns playing lines 1-4, two 3C's rounding the bottom lines, etc), and 'specialists' (i.e. Hags)
and C) A mediocre defense that had purpose in the right areas

to a team with 3 surplus value contracts (Sid, Jake, Murray), tons of iffy contracts, zero roster flexibility (guys only working with one or two other guys), a horrible C traded for a wing we are trying to make into a C, no depth scoring, and a mediocre defense with questionable skills in the right/wrong areas - who are paid like a top-tier defense.

They were injured. That’s a fact. Malkin, Hagelin, Brassard and Kessel were all hurt.

 

[Pancakes]

I wasn't including Malkin, Letang or Murray in any of those discussions, the discussion was about players after them. I'm not saying "blow up the team", I'm saying that refusing to trade anyone like Kessel or Rust and only wanting to trade cap dumps like Johnson is basically saying "I want the same team next year as the one that got swept last year". This team has been horribly flawed for 2 years now, yet some people still advocate for basically no changes.

Have we really been horribly flawed though? We lost in 6 games to the eventual Cup champs, and that in overtime. We also lost game 5 of that series because Letang made an awful play that in previous playoffs he would not have made. The margin between winning and losing in the playoffs is razor thin. This years playoffs was unacceptable, but I'm not sure it's anything to worry about yet. Calling the year before this horribly flawed is just not something I agree with. Not when we only barely lost to the team that ended up winning the Cup.

Those points aside I agree with you that moving core complementary pieces like Kessel and Rust might get us to where we want to go. That's definitely something that should be considered.

 

[Empoleon8771]

1. Nashville could use Hornqvist again, we just traded his best friend away months ago, maybe Hornqvist would go back to Nashville. I think Hornqvist would have more suitors then Kessel if made available, so you never know if he would waive for a team. We're in a real pickle if Kessel and Hornqvist are supposed to both play on the 3rd line. One of them has to bump up, Crosby nor Malkin want Hornqvist 5v5, and Sullivan and Kessel, well, yeah.

Again, NTC. For players with full NTCs, it's safe to assume that they don't plan on leaving. Hornqvist leaves basically only if he wants out, you're not going to be able to go to him and convince him to leave. Especially considering JR gave him the full NTC just a year ago.

3. I mean yeah if your doing it 1 for 1, but if we add, we could likely find some salary relief.

But what team is going to do that? Salary cap space is at a premium in the NHL right now, there aren't many dumping grounds for guys like Johnson. Gudbranson is probably more movable without taking any salary back, but Johnson's term basically prohibits you from not taking money back.

I think you can move Gudbranson for a cheaper bottom pair defenseman, something like Gudbranson to Florida for Pysyk. But because of Johnson's contract, you almost definitely can't do that with him. You're stuck with getting a comparable terrible long term contract back for him, because no one is going to want to take on Johnson for 4 years.

4. Moving Bjustad is sort of like moving Rust, you might have to in order to add a better piece or a piece that fits better. In Bjustads case I think he's more likely to stay because he can play C and W. If we're upgrading to a 3C who is a sure fire better bet for Phil (Bozak as an example) and Hornqvist is on Malkins RW, then well, he's got to go.

Moving Bjugstad is not like moving Rust because Bjugstad has been here for 20 games, while Rust has been here since 2015. Moving Bjugstad doesn't count as a "change" because he wasn't here long enough for it to count as a change. Moving Bjugstad essentially makes him a rental for last year, and no one says that a rental leaving as a free agent counts as "change".

5. I think you could still get a pretty decent return especially if we could trade him with an extension, however I've said before I think it makes the most sense to keep him as our own rental, for this year. The RD trade market this offseason is top heavy (Trouba, Spurgeon, Barrie are all worth their weight in gold times two) and the RD UFA batch this year isn't as good as the one next offseason.

Skipped 2 and 6 for obvious reasons.

I think extending Schultz makes him a less attractive asset, not a more attractive asset. He's coming off of a poor year in 2017-2018 and a bad year riddled with injuries in 2018-2019. He's closer to reclamation project territory than valuable top-4 D territory right now.

 

[vikingGoalie]

guys i dunno how many times it has to be said. Blues did not win because they had the most talent. They had two things going for them. The team formed an identity and everyone bought into it, and their goalie was red hot.

Our roster needs improvements, yes it does. But our *BIGGEST* issue this last playoff run and for long stretches in the regular season was buy in from our team. We have seen this over and over again where our stars eventually tune out the coach and do their own thing. If they were trying to do what Sullivan was preaching and failing at it then I get the roster argument as being the main cause. But literally the majority of the times we chipped the puck behind the islander defense and didn't try to be cute with it in the neutralzone we created a ton of offensive pressure and we didn't get scored on. So in my head we had the people to necessary to win.

Normally this sort of issue is solved by firing the coach. JR is trying to solve it in a different manner. We'll see how that works out...

 

[Gurglesons]

Those are strong "Western Conference" 5-6 D-men. Not much mobility or puck movement, but frankly, any of the three of them are better defensively than anybody the Penguins currently employ on defense. Yes, even Bobby Bortuzzo, if you haven't watched his improvement since leaving here. I'd take any of the three over anybody here not named Letang, Dumoulin, or Schultz.

I like Edmunson.

Gunnarson and Bort were regular scratches this playoffs. Not really sure where you’re coming from on this to be honest and the fact you said they are better than Letang defensively is honestly hilarious.

 

[molon labe]

They were injured. That’s a fact. Malkin, Hagelin, Brassard and Kessel were all hurt.

Every playoff team deals with injuries. Some can be avoided (like Kessel getting some rest - except his iron man streak > any team), some can't. But to blame things on that versus the level of effort, or recognizable shortcomings of the team is copping out. Neither of our cup teams came without injury. The Caps battled injuries. The Blues battled injuries. If you're in the lineup, you can only milk that so much. If you're sidelined (Letang 2017) that's a different story.

Our 2018 playoff team was putrid. JR thought we just needed a little pushback in Johnson - laughable response to a team that was literally carried by 3 players. This isn't even a case of hindsight - Brassard never worked here from game 1 onward. Instead of giving it more time, we should have moved for a better 3C that Summer.

Either way, the point was that people are acting like 1 four game series this year changes nothing - those people are ignoring the entire seasons of 2017-2018 / 2018 - 2019 where Kessel began to look like a shell of the 2016 Kessel...our depth stopped producing...our speed took a hit...contracts caught up to guys and started to look iffy...and all the nuances that fed into the great 2016 Penguins evaporated.

 

[Turin]

If your narrative hinges on a single game elimination in hockey, throw it in the garbage. Both St. Louis and Boston had a lot of luck go their way to even make it.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Have we really been horribly flawed though? We lost in 6 games to the eventual Cup champs, and that in overtime. We also lost game 5 of that series because Letang made an awful play that in previous playoffs he would not have made. The margin between winning and losing in the playoffs is razor thin. This years playoffs was unacceptable, but I'm not sure it's anything to worry about yet. Calling the year before this horribly flawed is just not something I agree with. Not when we only barely lost to the team that ended up winning the Cup.

Those points aside I agree with you that moving core complementary pieces like Kessel and Rust might get us to where we want to go. That's definitely something that should be considered.

Yes, they have been. Just saying "we lost in 6 games to the Capitals" ignores the context behind that. That team was entirely carried by Crosby and Guentzel going on an insane run in the playoffs. I saw another argument somewhere else that the team last year wasn't flawed because they had that really hot run near the end of the season, but the same applies there. Just looking at their record does not accurately show the state of their team, because the Penguins have players who can take over games and individually win games.

If your team is on a 15-4-1 run as your 1st line and starting goalie are globetrotting, but your bottom-6 isn't scoring, your bottom-4 on defense is getting caved in terms of possession and your 2nd line is a net negative for you, that's a flawed team. You can't just look at the results for how the team does to judge the state of the team, because what happened in the playoffs this year is what happens when your top end players aren't globe-trotting.

But either way, I don't think we disagree on much here. I think the team is more flawed than you appear to think, but we both agree on what the team needs to do.

 

[Turin]

Every playoff team deals with injuries. Some can be avoided (like Kessel getting some rest - except his iron man streak > any team), some can't. But to blame things on that versus the level of effort, or recognizable shortcomings of the team is copping out. Neither of our cup teams came without injury. The Caps battled injuries. The Blues battled injuries. If you're in the lineup, you can only milk that so much. If you're sidelined (Letang 2017) that's a different story.

Our 2018 playoff team was putrid. JR thought we just needed a little pushback in Johnson - laughable response to a team that was literally carried by 3 players. This isn't even a case of hindsight - Brassard never worked here from game 1 onward. Instead of giving it more time, we should have moved for a better 3C that Summer.

Either way, the point was that people are acting like 1 four game series this year changes nothing - those people are ignoring the entire seasons of 2017-2018 / 2018 - 2019 where Kessel began to look like a shell of the 2016 Kessel...our depth stopped producing...our speed took a hit...contracts caught up to guys and started to look iffy...and all the nuances that fed into the great 2016 Penguins evaporated.

Just brushing off your entire 2nd line and 3rd line C being seriously injured sounds cool and tough but isn’t reality.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I still think we'd benefit from a move like Letang for Spurgeon if we could get Spurgeon to commit to an extension.

 

[Beauner]

Go look at his evolving hockey page for last year. I can't post a screenshot here, but his numbers are absolute crap compared to what they have been in the past.



Oh okay, so let's make no changes then and just pray that last year was a fluke? Because that's basically what you're suggesting.

I really have no clue what team some people in here watched last year. We can't trade Kessel because he puts up points, we can't trade Rust because his value is low....so who are they going to move? Is this going to be the day 1 lineup next year? Because it really sounds like some people here want this:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
McCann-Malkin-Kessel
Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Some WBS winger

Dumoulin-Letang
Johnson-Schultz
Pettersson-Gudbranson

Hey I've been on the "Kessel must go" bandwagon since the season ended. Probably well before that, actually. But if he's going to make it impossible to move him, they're probably screwed regardless unless he reverts back to not playing like an idiot most of the time. And if that's what's gonna happen, I say just trade JJ and one of Maatta/Gudbranson and see what you can do in free agency, or wait til the trade deadline to maybe get a good piece.

 

[iFishyHD]

Smith played in 70 games last year and put up 29 points, they didn't bury him in the AHL. I also think there's no way that Ottawa of all teams takes on Johnson's contract plus retaining money on their own cap dump. I think it's even less likely that they take Johnson's contract for Ceci's rights.

Any JJ trade is going to be JJ+ for another bad $3-$4 million player who's signed for 3-4 years. You're going to have to take back a guy like Rask, Beagle, Helm or Abdelkader for him.

Ottawa legitimately needs to take on salary to hit the floor, the retention is nothing for them. Smith was on waivers at one point, I stand corrected on him actually playing in the AHL though, I must've missed that part during the season. Ottawa clearly doesn't want Smith, and I would tend to say his point totals are slightly inflated because he played 14+ minutes a night (I am assuming in at least a top 9 role, because Ottawa). I guess the idea with Ceci would be Ottawa gets Johnson to "replace" Ceci, and gets a pretty nice package on top of it. That idea is probably unrealistic as Ottawa could probably just trade Ceci for some stuff, and it doesn't make sense for us to probably make it worth Ottawas time.

I think your logic is slightly broke there, I certainly don't think we have to add to Johnson just to get rid of him, the only way I think we would be adding is if we're taking back a good player, gaining cap space, etc. We traded Rob f***ing Scuderi for Trevor Daley. Teams ditch bad contracts in different ways all the time.

 

[smetana]

I like Edmunson.

Gunnarson and Bort were regular scratches this playoffs. Not really sure where you’re coming from on this to be honest and the fact you said they are better than Letang defensively is honestly hilarious.

Gunnarson and Bortuzzo were scratched/rotated out in these playoffs because of the team's depth at the position, not because they are poor players. They would play regularly on most teams in the league. As far as Letang--and I'm a huge Tanger fan--you're overrating his defensive abilities. He's above average defensively, but not great, has lost a step in closing ability, and regularly makes perplexing decisions involving his assignments.

Agree to disagree. I stand by my statement.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Hey I've been on the "Kessel must go" bandwagon since the season ended. Probably well before that, actually. But if he's going to make it impossible to move him, they're probably screwed regardless unless he reverts back to not playing like an idiot most of the time. And if that's what's gonna happen, I say just trade JJ and one of Maatta/Gudbranson and see what you can do in free agency, or wait til the trade deadline to maybe get a good piece.

I don't fully agree with this, but I definitely think this is a fair stance to take. It's basically an argument of "if we can't get rid of the biggest problem, what's the point of making smaller moves that won't address the biggest problem?", which I can't even argue against.

 

[molon labe]

Just brushing off your entire 2nd line and 3rd line C being seriously injured sounds cool and tough but isn’t reality.

So them being slightly hurt accounts for our lack of transition game?

How about our team defensive work?

Depth scoring?


It's a cop-out excuse. Plus the fact that Kessel's supposed-wrist injury could have been well rested by that time as it was discovered with about 18 games to go in the season...instead he had to keep that streak alive.