Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: Stanley Cup Champions Summertime Blue's...

[Peat]

He's part of the problem for me. He's a guy that's going chip, chase and have logo buster shots... Every time. There's a place for Rust on this team but not the top 6 and he's forced into that role.

The Pens need give and go players around Malkin and Crosby but the thing is he fits Sullivan's system.

Where are we going to find 4 give and go players who have all the other requirements for the top 6 between them though?

I feel like we're pretty much always going to have a few grinders up there that maybe ideally wouldn't be there but beat the alternative.

 

[Burn]

Where are we going to find 4 give and go players who have all the other requirements for the top 6 between them though?

I feel like we're pretty much always going to have a few grinders up there that maybe ideally wouldn't be there but beat the alternative.

Yeah its weird but they're around. Jake is Jake and his place is cemented. Kessel doesn't fit Malkin or Crosby and needs to carry his own line.

Maybe Blueger can work with Malkin and Zuccerello can be signed. McCann was trending up so I think the Pens are getting there.

Maybe Bjugstad plays with Malkin and he ends up looking like a rookie Jordan Staal.

Its there and I think that's what makes Rust expendable. Maybe Hornqvist too.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm curious about the talk of moving Rust. Why? I understand if someone is willing to overpay but people are talking like he's a salary dump or something. We shouldn't move him unless we have to.

1. He's coming off a bad year
2. He's a part of the problem that this roster has with complacency
3. If you're not willing to move anyone, the team will be the exact same as it was last year. People can't just keep clinging to players they don't want to trade when the team needs to make moves. Someone needs to go. If it's not Kessel, it has to be someone like Rust. Going into next year with only trading Maatta for cap space is going to result in this team being a pretender next year.

Kessel may be moved, but it's more questionable now than it was a week ago. Hornqvist has a full NTC, he's not going anywhere. You're not trading Guentzel. You may move Bjugstad, but that move doesn't really count as a change based on Bjugstad only being here for 25 games. Who else is left outside of Rust? Are you just going to assume last year was a fluke and not do anything?

 

[JRS91]

1. He's coming off a bad year
2. He's a part of the problem that this roster has with complacency
3. If you're not willing to move anyone, the team will be the exact same as it was last year. People can't just keep clinging to players they don't want to trade when the team needs to make moves. Someone needs to go. If it's not Kessel, it has to be someone like Rust. Going into next year with only trading Maatta for cap space is going to result in this team being a pretender next year.

18 goals and 35 points is a bad year?

 

[Empoleon8771]

18 goals and 35 points is a bad year?

Go look at his analytics, he had a downright atrocious year analytically for his standards. Not only that, but his production was inflated by a crazy hot run he had over 2 months in the season. 22 of Rust's 35 points came in a 26 game stretch from December 12th to February 12th, meaning he had 13 points in the other 46 games.

So yeah, he was pretty bad last year. He was analytically bad all year and his production only looks fine because of a really hot 25 game stretch.

 

[Peat]

Go look at his analytics, he had a downright atrocious year analytically for his standards. Not only that, but his production was inflated by a crazy hot run he had over 2 months in the season. 22 of Rust's 35 points came in a 26 game stretch from December 12th to February 12th, meaning he had 13 points in the other 46 games.

So yeah, he was pretty bad last year. He was analytically bad all year and his production only looks fine because of a really hot 25 game stretch.

Looking at this stats here I'm not sure that holds. His relative stats are mostly positive and in a fair few cases better than 16/17. It's worse than last year by pretty much every stat, and he crapped the bed on SCF%, but downright atrocious? Not imo.

And his production was dragged down by a crazy cold run. It equaled out. Not ideal, but probably not going to repeat itself.

Personally I'd say he had an adequate season. Maybe a tad disappointing by his standards, but still not bad.

Yeah its weird but they're around. Jake is Jake and his place is cemented. Kessel doesn't fit Malkin or Crosby and needs to carry his own line.

Maybe Blueger can work with Malkin and Zuccerello can be signed. McCann was trending up so I think the Pens are getting there.

Maybe Bjugstad plays with Malkin and he ends up looking like a rookie Jordan Staal.

Its there and I think that's what makes Rust expendable. Maybe Hornqvist too.

There's a lot of maybes there, most of which will really hurt our bottom 6 if they work. I don't think we're going to be done with having grinders in our top 6 anytime soon.

Although I'd agree that one of Rust and Hornqvist are probably expendable, particularly if Kessel stays.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Frolik's trade value as a rental is probably worth about a late 1st on its own/early Kapanen level prospect, yes.

If that were the case, I'd trade Rust.

 

[AuroraBorealis]

There's a lot of focus on the defense now (and for good reason), but I'm really concerned with Horny. He's my favorite player, but the concussions are stacking up and that contract is looking grim. Last year - as much as I hate to say it - he took a big step back. He didn't seem like himself. Even the effort level wasn't near to what we're accustomed to seeing.

Sullivan used him in a much more defensive role because of that. He had a whopping 13% more D-zone starts than the year prior.

It's possible he'll bounce back I guess, but I fear the regression has started. More than anything, I'm very worried about his long term health. Frankly, he shouldn't play hockey anymore. He had several concussions in Nashville as well. Last thing you want to see is another Franzen situation. Google him...he's going through hell right now.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There's a lot of focus on the defense now (and for good reason), but I'm really concerned with Horny. He's my favorite player, but the concussions are stacking up and that contract is looking grim. Last year - as much as I hate to say it - he took a big step back. He didn't seem like himself. Even the effort level wasn't near to what we're accustomed to seeing.

Sullivan used him in a much more defensive role because of that. He had a whopping 13% more D-zone starts than the year prior.

It's possible he'll bounce back I guess, but I fear the regression has started. More than anything, I'm very worried about his long term health though. Frankly, he shouldn't play hockey anymore. He had several concussions in Nashville as well. Last thing you want to see is another Franzen situation. Google him...he's going through hell right now.

I don't see it that way at all.

Kessel wanted to be in the top 6 and Sid doesn't like playing with Hornqvist. Doesn't exactly leave a lot of options.

He just went to the WCs and led Sweden in goal scoring with 7 goals in 8 games. Hornqvist has a complementary skillset that requires other people to be the mail-carriers. He didn't have that this year. Battling in the corners and in front of the net doesn't amount to much if other players can't create.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

• Jack Johnson for Patrick Eaves (Anaheim), because Bob Murray is crazy, likes Jack Johnson, and would be getting a player that can actually play. Pens get rid of Johnson's contract and only have to deal with Eaves's for one season.
• Olli Maatta (+?) for Paul Byron (Montreal), because the Habs need an actual NHL LD. Pens get rid of Maatta who no longer fits in Pittsburgh and receive a speedy winger.
• The obvious Phil Kessel for Jason Zucker.

Guentzel	Crosby	Zucker
Byron	Malkin	Rust
McCann	Bjugstad	Hornqvist
Simon	Blueger	ZAR
Eaves (IR/AHL)	Johnson

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dumoulin	Letang
Pettersson	Schultz
Del Zotto	Gudbranson
Riikola	Ruhwedel

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Murray

DeSmith

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Tom Hanks]

 

[Peat]

• Jack Johnson for Patrick Eaves (Anaheim), because Bob Murray is crazy, likes Jack Johnson, and would be getting a player that can actually play. Pens get rid of Johnson's contract and only have to deal with Eaves's for one season.
• Olli Maatta (+?) for Paul Byron (Montreal), because the Habs need an actual NHL LD. Pens get rid of Maatta who no longer fits in Pittsburgh and receive a speedy winger.
• The obvious Phil Kessel for Jason Zucker.

Guentzel	Crosby	Zucker
Byron	Malkin	Rust
McCann	Bjugstad	Hornqvist
Simon	Blueger	ZAR
Eaves (IR/AHL)	Johnson

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Dumoulin	Letang
Pettersson	Schultz
Del Zotto	Gudbranson
Riikola	Ruhwedel

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Murray

DeSmith

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

We'd still be over cap by my calculations unless you have Eaves on LTIR for the whole season and that's without considering what Del Zotto costs. But I do like both Johnson and Maatta deals there.

 

[The Old Master]

Its there and I think that's what makes Rust expendable. Maybe Hornqvist too.

horny is a hard one. I love the guy but like maatta he doesn't fit with this current team as constructed. and he would do so much better on some other teams. not say'en he doesn't do well with us, just he would be much better if he were used right.

 

[Randy Butternubs]

We'd still be over cap by my calculations unless you have Eaves on LTIR for the whole season and that's without considering what Del Zotto costs. But I do like both Johnson and Maatta deals there.

Yeah, I'm over by at least $300k WITH Eaves in the AHL. Signing a LD probably isn't do-able in the situation I propose.

 

[Beauner]

1. He's coming off a bad year
2. He's a part of the problem that this roster has with complacency
3. If you're not willing to move anyone, the team will be the exact same as it was last year. People can't just keep clinging to players they don't want to trade when the team needs to make moves. Someone needs to go. If it's not Kessel, it has to be someone like Rust. Going into next year with only trading Maatta for cap space is going to result in this team being a pretender next year.

Kessel may be moved, but it's more questionable now than it was a week ago. Hornqvist has a full NTC, he's not going anywhere. You're not trading Guentzel. You may move Bjugstad, but that move doesn't really count as a change based on Bjugstad only being here for 25 games. Who else is left outside of Rust? Are you just going to assume last year was a fluke and not do anything?

1) All the more reason to hang onto him. His value is probably low
2) That's an entirely subjective statement and literally none of us can say that factually. About anyone.
3) You're not finding someone for his price or cheaper that's going to fit better with this team. You don't trade someone just to trade someone. That's how you end up with Tanner Pearson.

 

[Peat]

2) That's an entirely subjective statement and literally none of us can say that factually. About anyone.

It is mostly subjective... but man his effort stunk at the start of the season. And Rutherford might as well have called him out by name with his first rant of the season given how uniquely well he fitted the profile of what he was talking about.

 

[WayneSid9987]

To be brutally honest with y'all they should revamp/retool all of Phil, Horny AND Rust or atleast attempt to.
Why i liked Zucker quite a bit. He's one piece of the bigger puzzle for me. Dang it, Phil.

 

[molon labe]

I know people aren't fond of JT Miller, but I would have loved to see a Miller-Malkin-Rust line.

I think he meant Metamucil.

I've proposed multiple trades for Miller over the past 6 weeks.

Miller
Radulov
Anisimov

I'd take any of those guys on Malkin's wing. I posted a thread on the MB for Anisimov yesterday - and people keep defaulting to "we don't need another C" - completely neglecting that he can play LW damn well. That said - Miller seems to be the most readily available and I don't know why it hasn't happened yet.

Also, why are we content with Bjugs at 3C? He's simply serviceable there. I'd rather have options to be honest - especially considering our 3C will get significant time at 2C. Guys who can legitimately slot into the C or wing would be great here, as opposed to wings who can only fit on one line.

 

[molon labe]

To be brutally honest with y'all they should revamp/retool all of Phil, Horny AND Rust or atleast attempt to.
Why i liked Zucker quite a bit. He's one piece of the bigger puzzle for me. Dang it, Phil.

I wouldn't say 'should' but I agree that more than 2 changes should be made to our roster. I'd be comfortable shuffling:
Rust
Simon
Hornqvist
Bjugstad
Kessel
--
Letang
Schultz
Johnson
Maatta
Gudbranson

Highly unlikely all of that happens - but depending on the return I'd be perfectly okay with it. On that list, Letang/Rust/Hornqvist are the toughest for me to see go - as they all add unique elements to a playoff Penguins roster, but they are also huge question marks.

 

[Beauner]

It is mostly subjective... but man his effort stunk at the start of the season. And Rutherford might as well have called him out by name with his first rant of the season given how uniquely well he fitted the profile of what he was talking about.

He started quite slowly, yes. He also finished with a career high in goals. I don't think players, especially the non-elite guys, should be shown the door for a few weeks of sub-optimal play when they've proven then can be key pieces over the long-haul.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I wouldn't say 'should' but I agree that more than 2 changes should be made to our roster. I'd be comfortable shuffling:
Rust
Simon
Hornqvist
Bjugstad
Kessel
--
Letang
Schultz
Johnson
Maatta
Gudbranson

Highly unlikely all of that happens - but depending on the return I'd be perfectly okay with it. On that list, Letang/Rust/Hornqvist are the toughest for me to see go - as they all add unique elements to a playoff Penguins roster, but they are also huge question marks.

Yea, i'm talking more over the span of a couple seasons.
If Phil's a no go right now, i easily shift over to putting Horny and/or Rust up for sale.
Doesn't mean i'll move 'em for anything but their names would be out there.

 

[Peat]

More I think about it, the more I see only three real reasons to move Rust

A) Necessary Price to be paid for something you want more than Rust
B) You really hate him on Sid's line that much and want to take the toy away
C) You really doubt his hunger to keep working

Those issues aside - he's probably going to produce equal to what his cap hit says he should while taking on a big defensive orientated workload for the next few years of his contract while being one of our more flexible forwards and a right hander, which is harder to find, and fast, which is something we want more not less of.

Also, why are we content with Bjugs at 3C? He's simply serviceable there. I'd rather have options to be honest - especially considering our 3C will get significant time at 2C. Guys who can legitimately slot into the C or wing would be great here, as opposed to wings who can only fit on one line.

Because he looked a lot more than serviceable to me and if we're looking for more 3C options, then we've got some developing in house, although if you want to add some real 2C/2W options than we can get, go for it. My guess is that with our limited cap room and trade assets, they'll be too rich for our blood.

 

[WayneSid9987]

Think a perfect example(of what you'd look for) would be Rust reportedly being involved in the Domi trade proposal. I wonder if JR would finish on top of that deal if ARI had a do over...

 

[molon labe]

More I think about it, the more I see only three real reasons to move Rust

A) Necessary Price to be paid for something you want more than Rust
B) You really hate him on Sid's line that much and want to take the toy away
C) You really doubt his hunger to keep working

Those issues aside - he's probably going to produce equal to what his cap hit says he should while taking on a big defensive orientated workload for the next few years of his contract while being one of our more flexible forwards and a right hander, which is harder to find, and fast, which is something we want more not less of.



Because he looked a lot more than serviceable to me and if we're looking for more 3C options, then we've got some developing in house, although if you want to add some real 2C/2W options than we can get, go for it. My guess is that with our limited cap room and trade assets, they'll be too rich for our blood.

I think (A) is why he'd be moved.

You're not that desperate to clear 3.5M in cap space - not with a roster full of iffy contracts.

Rust is a guy that would probably hold a LOT of value to young/decently young rosters and could net us something pretty good. I honestly have wondered if that might top Tampa's list if they're looking at high first round picks for JT Miller. Rust comes in 2 million cheaper, and would instantly boost their PK. He can also slot up and down the lineup for them.

I've also always seen Rust as a good fit for a team like Chicago. Either way, I doubt we're moving him in a non-hockey trade.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Looking at this stats here I'm not sure that holds. His relative stats are mostly positive and in a fair few cases better than 16/17. It's worse than last year by pretty much every stat, and he crapped the bed on SCF%, but downright atrocious? Not imo.

And his production was dragged down by a crazy cold run. It equaled out. Not ideal, but probably not going to repeat itself.

Personally I'd say he had an adequate season. Maybe a tad disappointing by his standards, but still not bad.

Go look at his evolving hockey page for last year. I can't post a screenshot here, but his numbers are absolute crap compared to what they have been in the past.

1) All the more reason to hang onto him. His value is probably low
2) That's an entirely subjective statement and literally none of us can say that factually. About anyone.
3) You're not finding someone for his price or cheaper that's going to fit better with this team. You don't trade someone just to trade someone. That's how you end up with Tanner Pearson.

Oh okay, so let's make no changes then and just pray that last year was a fluke? Because that's basically what you're suggesting.

I really have no clue what team some people in here watched last year. We can't trade Kessel because he puts up points, we can't trade Rust because his value is low....so who are they going to move? Is this going to be the day 1 lineup next year? Because it really sounds like some people here want this:

Guentzel-Crosby-Rust
McCann-Malkin-Kessel
Simon-Bjugstad-Hornqvist
ZAR-Blueger-Some WBS winger

Dumoulin-Letang
Johnson-Schultz
Pettersson-Gudbranson