Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster building: " PPG with a clock in its wall|Tic Toc....! We there yet?"

[DeadPuckEra]

It took 2 seconds. Figured you were the type to fold tents up early, so I checked 2015...lo and behold.

Some people learn from their mistakes. Some get offended and angry at the person who pointed them out.

Everything I said - outside of the misguided Crosby comments was on point.

I could go through anyone’s post history here and find something to use against them - FROM FOUR YEARS AGO. Hell, some could be found two weeks ago. I digress.

These players were four years younger. You couldn’t simply make a counter point to my current argument - because you don’t have one. You had to search through my post history, dating back to 4 years ago, to find something you thought would be clever to use against me.

I will own the folding tent type though... even though my assertions were and still are on point.

You won’t own the “I got offended and have no relevant point to make, but I’m seriously feeling one upped, and I need to find something, anything, even if it takes me an hour of searching this persons post history so I can sleep tonight type”.

Seriously, good luck to you.

Maybe we can revisit this four years down the road.

 

[Turin]

Don't shoot the messenger



Agree to disagree on the atrocious nature of Phil's game, or his value compare to 60-point wingers.

What alternatives do you see as available that would be an upgrade on Kessel? (I'm not asking in a sarcastic or combative manner, I'm genuinely curious on what you think.) Skinner would be great of course. Who else do you think? Do the Pens have the pieces to make a trade for a real impactful winger?

Kessel on the third line with a smart defensively conscious center is great. Kessel with Malkin absolutely sucks without Hagelin there to forecheck and backcheck for them. Regardless of the ES points he does put up, his line with Geno often gets scored on just as much. There isn’t a correlation of this team’s success and Phil’s production. The best this team has looked in the Sid and Geno era was when Kessel scored less than 60 points in the RS and there was no Guentzel. The Pens don’t need X amount of star winger points, they need depth and players that can skate and buy in.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Panarin was a knee-jerk, idiotic move that came out of nowhere. Phil's been on the ropes since the Caps series last spring, and probably could've/should've been moved last summer.


I agree that Phil's always been a one-dimensional guy, but there are way too many factors going against keeping Phil. He's a temperamental headcase that allows his emotions to dictate his play way too often. He can't/won't play away from Geno, and those two bring the worst out of one another when together. He's an aging winger that relies entirely on his skating to facilitate his passing and shot and once his skating starts to slip, you have a $7 million PP specialist and ES dumpster fire.

This team needs to get younger and better at ES, both at forward and on the blueline. Just because we've got a multitude of problems, several of which are more pressing issues, doesn't change the fact that Phil, and by extension Geno's wing, is an issue that very much needs to be addressed. If your entire house is on fire, you don't ignore the living room because the fire started in the kitchen.


I don't think highly of this organization whatsoever, but Phil's a problem. Plain and simple. I suppose we're just never going to agree if we can't get past that very basic start. JJ, Maatta, Gudbranson--all of them suck. You'll get no argument out of me there. They also have an extremely detrimental effect on this team's ability to transition or generate offense, again, no argument. But those guys don't make Phil lazily coast around, flubbing passes, refusing shots, and being woeful in the neutral and defensive zones, forcing Geno and the other winger to do more work.

Phil's movable, and will bring back a significant return. It won't be a 1-for-1 in terms of adding his replacement, but that domino has to fall in order for this team to right the ship. I'd love to simply buy JJ out, move Maatta and Gudbranson, and revamp that blueline's 2nd and 3rd pairings. That doesn't change the multitude of problems when it comes to Phil Kessel.

The issue is that almost all the factors you mention in favour of trading Kessel are ones that made Toronto feel they had to trade Kessel, which allowed him to fall in our lap and become a key component to 2 Cup wins. The only one that isn't is his age, where you project him falling off a cliff that doesn't apply to our other star players based on some shaky logic about his playstyle that could just as easily be argued to make him less likely to be susceptible than they are.

Moving Kessel before figuring out the extent to which horrendous members of our defense and the dubious LW situation contributed to it - particularly since Geno was similarly exposed - would be a big mistake unless we had an elite offensive UFA in our back pocket.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I honestly don't get how there's anyone left supporting keeping Kessel. Did people not watch him when playing with Malkin last year? Or are people just clinging to what worked in 2016 and 2017 to say they need to keep him for 2020?

Let's ignore the discussion about Kessel's risk of falling off, because it's mostly just speculation and I don't think we'll ever get everyone to agree. Kessel is a guy that doesn't fit in the Penguins top-6, because Crosby doesn't want to play with him and Malkin is a bad fit with him. Kessel's value is a point producer on a team who needs an offensive driver for their 2nd line, that's not the Penguins. The Penguins need guys who produce in depth roles or can help Crosby and Malkin be as productive as they can be, Kessel is neither of those. Kessel would be great on a team like Arizona, who need help with that top end production and really need a line driver in their top-6.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Don't shoot the messenger



Agree to disagree on the atrocious nature of Phil's game, or his value compare to 60-point wingers.

What alternatives do you see as available that would be an upgrade on Kessel? (I'm not asking in a sarcastic or combative manner, I'm genuinely curious on what you think.) Skinner would be great of course. Who else do you think? Do the Pens have the pieces to make a trade for a real impactful winger?

Duchene, if he's comfortable playing wing full time, but I don't think he is. Skinner is probably the best option to be Geno's version of Jake. Panarin would be a better, younger Kessel without the mental baggage. I'll take all three of those guys over Kessel 8 days a week.

I'm sure there are more options available via trade, but I don't have the same sort of pulse of other teams that JR probably does. You move Phil and land something like a mid-1st rounder + strong prospect, you have options. You get cap space to take a run at one of those three FAs, or you can flip that 1st as part of a package to land Phil's replacement via trade.

If I'm in charge, I'm starting by firing JR and replacing him with a GM that understands what brings success in today's NHL; speed, skating and youth. JR is a clueless moron who is building this team to compete for a Cup circa 2003 as opposed to 2019. But again, just because we have a multitude of problems, most of which are blueline-related, doesn't mean Phil isn't a big problem himself.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Everything I said - outside of the misguided Crosby comments was on point.

I could go through anyone’s post history here and find something to use against them - FROM FOUR YEARS AGO. Hell, some could be found two weeks ago. I digress.

These players were four years younger. You couldn’t simply make a counter point to my current argument - because you don’t have one. You had to search through my post history, dating back to 4 years ago, to find something you thought would be clever to use against me.

I will own the folding tent type though... even though my assertions were and still are on point.

You won’t own the “I got offended and have no relevant point to make, but I’m seriously feeling one upped, and I need to find something, anything, even if it takes me an hour of searching this persons post history so I can sleep tonight type”.

Seriously, good luck to you.

Maybe we can revisit this four years down the road.

It was?

So you maintain that it was going to get worse before it got better in December 2015, and it would have been beneficial for Lemieux, Crosby, Letang, and JR to leave then? It's particularly interesting that you noted we had no quality depth then either, yet Sheary and Rust were in the pipeline. You know, the guys you hold up as examples of great depth that we absolutely don't have in the pipeline now.

Maybe we should just take a more measured approach to the team rather than concluding that the sky's falling so we should trade all the stars other than Crosby, that careless mush-brained scaredy cat.

 

[The Old Master]

with phil …. he can't play with our top two centers.... and he doesn't want to play on our 3rd line, and I don't think he would be happy on the fourth. so he doesn't have a place to play on this team as we now stand. imo

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

The issue is that almost all the factors you mention in favour of trading Kessel are ones that made Toronto feel they had to trade Kessel, which allowed him to fall in our lap and become a key component to 2 Cup wins. The only one that isn't is his age, where you project him falling off a cliff that doesn't apply to our other star players based on some shaky logic about his playstyle that could just as easily be argued to make him less likely to be susceptible than they are.

Moving Kessel before figuring out the extent to which horrendous members of our defense and the dubious LW situation contributed to it - particularly since Geno was similarly exposed - would be a big mistake unless we had an elite offensive UFA in our back pocket.

The Toronto media went way overboard and turned things personal, but maybe there was a realistic foundation to their issues with Kessel? Why is that so hard to believe? The stuff they resorted to was absurd, from hot dog conspiracies to being mad at Phil for not being a franchise pillar-type of player. But the stuff about Phil wearing out his welcome and being tough to coach? I absolutely agree with that, because we've seen the evidence as things have unfolded and deteriorated over the past four years. Phil's always been a guy where you have to take the bad with the good, because the good outshines the bad most of the time. When the bad starts to overtake the good, which it has since the post season last year, then it's time to start looking elsewhere. Phil's a disposable asset, and we got two Cups in four years out of the guy. It's time to change directions, he's no longer what this team needs.

As for the age thing with relation to our other big guns; I don't think Letang will even finish his contract due to injury. I think Geno will have a serious decline in the final year or two of his deal. Sid's a guy who will remain effective and productive well into his mid to late 30s, specifically because he has Jake, and that's why I am gunning so hard for this team to move Phil and try to find that guy for Geno.

Again, if I'm in charge, I'm firing JR first and foremost. Then, I'm simultaneously trying to revamp the 2nd and 3rd pairings (JJ/Maatta/Gudbranson out, significant #2 in) as well as moving both Phil and Horny in the next calendar year, going after younger guys who are better at ES. Just because problem A exists and is a more pressing matter than problem B, doesn't suddenly mean problem B isn't a problem as well. We're in agreement that this blueline is a travesty, but we're never going to agree about Phil. I think the dude is an absolute must-move for a number of reasons, which I've outlined a number of times. I can't really be convinced otherwise, and it doesn't even matter, because I'd venture to say Phil's as good as gone already.

 

[Will Hunting]

Yeah, there is like 10 reasons of why Phil needs to go ASAP. Bad fit (or complete lack of fit) at ES is only one of them. Even our dumb front office can see it, it´s that obvious in his case. Goodbye, I certainly won´t cry for him.

 

[Turin]

I’m not in get rid of him at all costs mode necessarily. There are unlikely cap restructuring maneuvers that could put Phil in a better spot here. I don’t think it’s a coaching or personality issue with him either really, not primarily. It’s just about the age and the lack of fit. Last year he was so good early on that trading him after one bad playoff run seemed dumb, but it’s time now if it’s going to be done.

 

[CallArnoldSlick]

Duchene, if he's comfortable playing wing full time, but I don't think he is. Skinner is probably the best option to be Geno's version of Jake. Panarin would be a better, younger Kessel without the mental baggage. I'll take all three of those guys over Kessel 8 days a week.

I'm sure there are more options available via trade, but I don't have the same sort of pulse of other teams that JR probably does. You move Phil and land something like a mid-1st rounder + strong prospect, you have options. You get cap space to take a run at one of those three FAs, or you can flip that 1st as part of a package to land Phil's replacement via trade.

If I'm in charge, I'm starting by firing JR and replacing him with a GM that understands what brings success in today's NHL; speed, skating and youth. JR is a clueless moron who is building this team to compete for a Cup circa 2003 as opposed to 2019. But again, just because we have a multitude of problems, most of which are blueline-related, doesn't mean Phil isn't a big problem himself.

Well... yeah, I'd take Panarin over Phil, but there's a zero percent chance of happening regardless of our GM. I'd take Skinner and his 47 ES points over Phil and his 46 ES points too, even though you might be disappointed if defensive zone play is a real concern for you. He's going to have the same problems as Phil unless we address our blueline. I'm kinda meh on the prospect of Duchene. Can't see why he'd want to come here as a winger when he can be a top 2 center elsewhere.

I also can't see a team sending us an upgrade to Phil in exchange for Phil. Like I said, I'm not against trading Phil to upgrade the team. I'm just really skeptical that's possible.

 

[Turin]

Well... yeah, I'd take Panarin over Phil, but there's a zero percent chance of happening regardless of our GM. I'd take Skinner and his 47 ES points over Phil and his 46 ES points too, even though you might be disappointed if defensive zone play is a real concern for you. He's going to have the same problems as Phil unless we address our blueline. I'm kinda meh on the prospect of Duchene. Can't see why he'd want to come here as a winger when he can be a top 2 center elsewhere.

I also can't see a team sending us an upgrade to Phil in exchange for Phil. Like I said, I'm not against trading Phil to upgrade the team. I'm just really skeptical that's possible.

The only real advantage of Skinner vs Phil is age. That’s mostly it though, and Kessel is RH which fits the PP better.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

The only real advantage of Skinner vs Phil is age. That’s mostly it though, and Kessel is RH which fits the PP better.

Yeah, only thing I’d say is that Skinner is a bit more of a shoot-first style which I could see playing better with Geno maybe.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Well... yeah, I'd take Panarin over Phil, but there's a zero percent chance of happening regardless of our GM. I'd take Skinner and his 47 ES points over Phil and his 46 ES points too, even though you might be disappointed if defensive zone play is a real concern for you. He's going to have the same problems as Phil unless we address our blueline. I'm kinda meh on the prospect of Duchene. Can't see why he'd want to come here as a winger when he can be a top 2 center elsewhere.

I also can't see a team sending us an upgrade to Phil in exchange for Phil. Like I said, I'm not against trading Phil to upgrade the team. I'm just really skeptical that's possible.

I mean, I specifically said we're not getting a direct replacement in the Phil deal, and that it'd take more moves to sort it out.

Panarin's going to Florida with Bob to play for Coach Q, but I just threw his name out as a guy we should be pursuing on the off chance he would sign. Skinner's a younger Phil with more a triggerman style as opposed to playmaking. He also doesn't use an absurd, noodley flex, which is a big factor when looking for Phil's replacement, since Geno loves his wingers to be able to one-time pucks and Phil simply cannot.

The only real advantage of Skinner vs Phil is age. That’s mostly it though, and Kessel is RH which fits the PP better.

That's a big factor, though. Skinner is, without a doubt, going to be at the peak of his career until Geno's gone at the very least. That's important.

 

[Ryder71]

I'm sure we'll at least kick the tires on Skinner. Hopefully we'll be a serious contender for his services.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

My only concern with Skinner, and I genuinely mean only, is the idea that he wouldn't be interested in playing here. His price point should be fine if we shed all the deadweight we need to, and move Phil for a return that doesn't take on much if any cap back. I'd gladly pay another million for Skinner. He's a great skating, young, 40-goal guy who plays LW, which is important in it's own right, since I think Rust is tailor made for a Skinner-Geno combo as the Hagelin-type of puckhound, dirty work guy.

 

[Trade]

Honestly have no interest in Skinner being the highest paid player on our team.

 

[Turin]

I mean, I specifically said we're not getting a direct replacement in the Phil deal, and that it'd take more moves to sort it out.

Panarin's going to Florida with Bob to play for Coach Q, but I just threw his name out as a guy we should be pursuing on the off chance he would sign. Skinner's a younger Phil with more a triggerman style as opposed to playmaking. He also doesn't use an absurd, noodley flex, which is a big factor when looking for Phil's replacement, since Geno loves his wingers to be able to one-time pucks and Phil simply cannot.


That's a big factor, though. Skinner is, without a doubt, going to be at the peak of his career until Geno's gone at the very least. That's important.

I’d definitely make the switch if the money was reasonable. It might not be reasonable though.

 

[CheckingLineCenter]

I’d address the blueline and completely rebuild the bottom 4 before I even thought about moving out Phil/Horny or god forbid Malkin.

 

[Turin]

Honestly have no interest in Skinner being the highest paid player on our team.

I think he played himself out of that money. But I wouldn’t do anything over 7 for him. I’d rather see what Nyquist would want.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I’d definitely make the switch if the money was reasonable. It might not be reasonable though.

I think Skinner will get around $8 million, give or take a couple hundred thousand. If we part with all the deadweight on this roster as well as move Phil for the oft-proposed 1st+prospect return, that's more than palatable.

The parting with the deadweight issue is the one that concerns me the most. JR's supremely confident and happy with this blueline. He's the biggest problem of all, and the first domino that needs to fall in order for this team to really right the ship before Geno's outta here.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I would much rather throw money at Zuccarello or Nyquist instead of paying a crazy price for Skinner.

 

[The Old Master]

I’d address the blueline and completely rebuild the bottom 4 before I even thought about moving out Phil/Horny or god forbid Malkin.

yes but moving one d and expecting to get a better one back, tends to be more of a dream. you would have a much better chance moving a forward for "d". imo

 

[CallArnoldSlick]

I mean, I specifically said we're not getting a direct replacement in the Phil deal, and that it'd take more moves to sort it out.

So unless a top UFA decides to sign here, we're trading Phil for a downgrade at wing and gonna sort it out with with our high-value assets of Jack Johnson and Olli Maatta? Did Chiarelli get hired somewhere?

 

[Turin]

So unless a top UFA decides to sign here, we're trading Phil for a downgrade at wing and gonna sort it out with with our high-value assets of Jack Johnson and Olli Maatta? Did Chiarelli get hired somewhere?

Replacing Johnson with anybody moderately decent would more than offset losing Phil. Nobody knows what the plan is, besides moving Phil and Maatta probably. That’s still over 10 million in space.