Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Monday, February 26

[Ogrezilla]

I don't think it's "necessary" to upgrade the 3C spot. You need to upgrade the 4C spot, which can be done by getting someone to push Sheahan to that spot.

yes, that's what I'm saying too. If you can upgrade 3C and subsequently 4C with Sheahan, great.

 

[Ryder71]

nobody is saying we shouldn't upgrade 3C.

nobody here is disagreeing with that. We are disagreeing with this notion that he is some gaping hole in our line-up at 3C.

I disagree with your disagreement.
I do believe there are some here who are perfectly fine leaving him there and don't believe he'd be a problem there in the post season.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So 5g, 15a in 55 games, right? 55.5 faceoff percentage, which is damn awesome. RFA next year.

Do you sign him? If so - to what? Anything 2 and over, i'd let walk.

Also, those same stats in 47 games, because I don't give a shit what he did in Detroit.

I wouldn't be giving him a raise, but I wouldn't expect to need to.

 

[ColePens]

Also, those same stats in 47 games, because I don't give a **** what he did in Detroit.

I wouldn't be giving him a raise, but I wouldn't expect to need to.

I'm sorry but those games count. You don't get to cross those off.

I feel Washington just f***ed over everyone. Eller 3.5m for 5 freaking years and he hits 30 pts ONCE. The ask from Sheahan's camp should easily be 3.5, right?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm sorry but those games count. You don't get to cross those off.

They don't count the same. He was clearly just not working in Detroit. If I'm deciding how effective a guy is as a Pittsburgh Penguin, and I have stats of him as a Pittsburgh Penguin, what the f*** do I care about his stats as a Detroit Red Wing?

I feel Washington just ****ed over everyone. Eller 3.5m for 5 freaking years and he hits 30 pts ONCE. The ask from Sheahan's camp should easily be 3.5, right?

Was Eller UFA or RFA?

 

[Ryder71]

Also, those same stats in 47 games, because I don't give a **** what he did in Detroit.

I wouldn't be giving him a raise, but I wouldn't expect to need to.

So you just disregard his first eight games of the year? That's cherry picking. You can weigh the PIT games more heavily if you want but to just out and out disregard stats isn't an even handed way to debate. That's as bad as what Riptide does. Don't be like him/her.

 

[Ogrezilla]

So you just disregard his first eight games of the year? That's cherry picking. You can weigh the PIT games more heavily if you want but to just disregard stats out and out isn't an even handed way to debate. That's as bad as what Riptide does. Don't be like him/her.

I am interested in how Sheahan plays with the Penguins. Before he had played here, we had to base our predictions on how he played in Detroit. Now, I'm basing my opinion of Sheahan as a Penguin on his time playing as a Penguin. You do what you want.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I am BEYOND shocked this even remains a conversation here. We have all agreed that we like Sheahan's game, but to maximize Pittsburgh, Kessel gets his own line. We all agree Sheahan doesn't mesh with Kessel. Sheahan is a defensive style center that I'd LOVE to have on the 4th line.

I just can't believe people even argue this anymore. It seemed universally agreed upon and then out of nowhere people spark these debates. It makes zerrrro sense.

Gun to my head - I would have just rather re-signed Bones. I'd take the crappy term because at least I know he works with Kessel and performs when it matters the most.

It’s more like there’s a chance Bonino works with Kessel at any given time because he only worked with Kessel during that HBK year. 50/50 on performing when it matters most here.

 

[Ryder71]

I am interested in how Sheahan plays with the Penguins. Before he had played here, we had to base our predictions on how he played in Detroit. Now, I'm basing my opinion of Sheahan as a Penguin on his time playing as a Penguin. You do what you want.

OK well when I take everything into account, stats, chemistry, faceoffs, PK etc I think he best serves the pens as 4C.

 

[Riptide]

Stop being a clown, seriously. I'm speaking in general terms here. If you don't take all aspects into account then you're not debating the subject accurately or in a fair minded manner. You can have an agenda, just be honest about it. And I don't believe you are. Stop cherry picking.

Yes because pointing out the fallacy of including someone's PP production when they played on their teams #1 PP and received minutes on that PP that even Guentzel doesn't receive here (and he's our 5th highest forward in PP TOI) is "being a clown".

God forbid actually wanting to look at someone's stats on a different team and then trying realistically to apply that to what they'd actually get here. Nope, of course we absolutely must include numbers from situations we know they won't get if they were on this team. Because of course that's going to give us the most accurate representation of what they'd do if they came here.

I do have a clear agenda and I've been very clear and honest about it all season long: Trying to find the data that would best represent what would player X do should they come to Pittsburgh. Including 2 minutes+ every game from that teams #1PP doesn't come close to doing that - because they're not going to get that in Pittsburgh. And if they're not going to get it here... why the f*** would we include that? Think about that for a second.

Hey player X gets 50% of his production from the PP. Clearly he's better than player Y who produces at the rate of .8 of player X, but all at ES. Yep, player X is absof***inglutely the player we need to acquire, because he's clearly going to produce the exact same here (or better, because we're the Penguins) as he did on his former team while getting 2+ minutes a night on the PP to pad his stats. Oh he's not going to get 2+ minutes a night on the #1PP here in Pittsburgh? Meh, doesn't matter - he's still going to put up better numbers!

But hey wouldn't want to cherry pick stats, so of course we're going to include the PP production someone who would likely be our #4C won't get here... because you know... "accuracy".

 

[Shaffer]

I am BEYOND shocked this even remains a conversation here. We have all agreed that we like Sheahan's game, but to maximize Pittsburgh, Kessel gets his own line. We all agree Sheahan doesn't mesh with Kessel. Sheahan is a defensive style center that I'd LOVE to have on the 4th line.

I just can't believe people even argue this anymore. It seemed universally agreed upon and then out of nowhere people spark these debates. It makes zerrrro sense.

Gun to my head - I would have just rather re-signed Bones. I'd take the crappy term because at least I know he works with Kessel and performs when it matters the most.

Adding on to what Cole said: I don’t dislike Sheahan. I dislike his usage.

What I will say: who knows what the future holds for Sheahan? Nobody knew that Schultz would turn into an legit #3D. Nobody knew Kessel would become a legit Art Ross threat after being traded to PIT(granted, it’s his third season here). Nobody knew that Sullivan would (help) transform this team into back-to-back championships. Maybe Sheahan does turn into a stud third line center, but like I said: who knows?

only time will tell . . .

 

[Ryder71]

Yes because pointing out the fallacy of including someone's PP production when they played on their teams #1 PP and received minutes on that PP that even Guentzel doesn't receive here (and he's our 5th highest forward in PP TOI) is "being a clown".

God forbid actually wanting to look at someone's stats on a different team and then trying realistically to apply that to what they'd actually get here. Nope, of course we absolutely must include numbers from situations we know they won't get if they were on this team. Because of course that's going to give us the most accurate representation of what they'd do if they came here.

I do have a clear agenda and I've been very clear and honest about it all season long: Trying to find the data that would best represent what would player X do should they come to Pittsburgh. Including 2 minutes+ every game from that teams #1PP doesn't come close to doing that - because they're not going to get that in Pittsburgh. And if they're not going to get it here... why the **** would we include that? Think about that for a second.

Hey player X gets 50% of his production from the PP. Clearly he's better than player Y who produces at the rate of .8 of player X, but all at ES. Yep, player X is abso****inglutely the player we need to acquire, because he's clearly going to produce the exact same here (or better, because we're the Penguins) as he did on his former team while getting 2+ minutes a night on the PP to pad his stats. Oh he's not going to get 2+ minutes a night on the #1PP here in Pittsburgh? Meh, doesn't matter - he's still going to put up better numbers!

But hey wouldn't want to cherry pick stats, so of course we're going to include the PP production someone who would likely be our #4C won't get here... because you know... "accuracy".

Please stop cherry picking, thanks.

 

[Riptide]

Gun to my head - I would have just rather re-signed Bones. I'd take the crappy term because at least I know he works with Kessel and performs when it matters the most.

Really? HBK worked for ~25% of Bonino's games here. If that's your definition of "worked", then I don't know what to say. HBK worked in late 15/16 and though out the POs in 15/16. And never came close to "working" again.

 

[Ogrezilla]

OK well when I take everything into account, stats, chemistry, faceoffs, PK etc I think he best serves the pens as 4C.

agreed. What I'm saying is that there's a big difference between "best served as 4C" and "we have a hole at 3C". That's the opinion I'm disagreeing with.

 

[Gurglesons]

I'm sorry but those games count. You don't get to cross those off.

I feel Washington just ****ed over everyone. Eller 3.5m for 5 freaking years and he hits 30 pts ONCE. The ask from Sheahan's camp should easily be 3.5, right?

I think people on here are finally starting to understand the cost of centers.

 

[Ugene Magic]

Pageau isn't that much of a upgrade to offset the costs.

He comes in as another smallish player who'd help contribute to loss in puck battles.

Pageau is a lateral move. You'll have to rob Peter to pay Paul. He just doesn't have enough stock for me to just pull the trigger. At that cost I'd want more than either Sheahan or Pageau provide.

So why even trade for him. He doesn't improve if you are just swapping out. That isn't depth.

 

[Pancakes]

I've been quite happy with Sheahan overall. Whether he's the 3 or 4c I don't care. But we need some kind of other C because Rowney is god awful and so is everyone else we've tried there.

 

[Riptide]

So 5g, 15a in 55 games, right? 55.5 faceoff percentage, which is damn awesome. RFA next year.

Do you sign him? If so - to what? Anything 2 and over, i'd let walk.

His QO is ~2.2m. I'd do that (his QO) very easily. I'd even go 2.5m without any issues. Worse case you have an expensive and great 4C. Beyond that I don't know as you're also getting into term and I'd really want to see him with different wingers then just Guentzel and Kessel paired together before getting into discussions regarding term.

They don't count the same. He was clearly just not working in Detroit. If I'm deciding how effective a guy is as a Pittsburgh Penguin, and I have stats of him as a Pittsburgh Penguin, what the **** do I care about his stats as a Detroit Red Wing?

Was Eller UFA or RFA?

UFA at the end of this season. All 5 years were UFA years.

I feel Washington just ****ed over everyone. Eller 3.5m for 5 freaking years and he hits 30 pts ONCE. The ask from Sheahan's camp should easily be 3.5, right?

And he did it just as he was going to be a UFA. Buying up 5 UFA years is never cheap.

 

[ColePens]

I think Sheahan has looked at his best with Reaves, ironically. I can recall two of his goals where Reaves was his winger. Is there a site to see who the linemates were when he scored? I feel he's always playing his best along side Reaves.

 

[Ugene Magic]

So 5g, 15a in 55 games, right? 55.5 faceoff percentage, which is damn awesome. RFA next year.

Do you sign him? If so - to what? Anything 2 and over, i'd let walk.

This will all be dependant on this year plus playoff success.

He should be right in the Pageau contract stage around the 3.0 range. He also doesn't require sending more assets to retain.

 

[Shaffer]

I think Sheahan has looked at his best with Reaves, ironically. I can recall two of his goals where Reaves was his winger. Is there a site to see who the linemates were when he scored? I feel he's always playing his best along side Reaves.

Kuhnhackl-Sheahan-Reaves was actually VERY good.

I’d still prefer Kuhnhackl/trade-Sheahan-Rust come playoffs.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I think Sheahan has looked at his best with Reaves, ironically. I can recall two of his goals where Reaves was his winger. Is there a site to see who the linemates were when he scored? I feel he's always playing his best along side Reaves.

DobberHockey Presents FrozenPool's Line Production

yeah, 6 of his points have come while playing with Reaves.

 

[Ryder71]

agreed. What I'm saying is that there's a big difference between "best served as 4C" and "we have a hole at 3C". That's the opinion I'm disagreeing with.

That's a very subjective debate so things can get murky. I do believe that because we have high expectations around these parts, we expect better than average or below average players at any given position. If you're Arizona or Buffalo or some such team Sheahan is fine. But not for the Penguins. I look at the team as incomplete at center for example.

 

[Ogrezilla]

That's a very subjective debate so things can get murky. I do believe that because we have high expectations around these parts, we expect better than average or below average players at any given position. If you're Arizona or Buffalo or some such team Sheahan is fine. But not for the Penguins. I look at the team as incomplete at center for example.

Well our 4C is awful, so I agree.

 

[Speaking Moistly]

I've been quite happy with Sheahan overall. Whether he's the 3 or 4c I don't care. But we need some kind of other C because Rowney is god awful and so is everyone else we've tried there.

Sheahan is another good reclamation project for them and that trend is great to see. They’ve really been getting great returns on trades like that and it’s a testament to their scouting process and how they work with players. Yes, it makes the Reaves one even more confusing. Those clever trades and the youth have been huge for their process.

What I think everyone can agree on is that they can’t go into the playoffs with Rowney as the 4C. Whether that means someone to push Sheahan down or getting a good to great 4C. Hopefully they get lucky and Blueger is the answer but it absolutely can’t be Rowney. Sheahan has been good for stabilizing them down the middle but they’re still lacking depth.