Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Monday, February 26

[Empoleon8771]

I really don't get why people think that having Sheahan as the 3C would be disastrous for the Penguins winning the cup. Sure, maybe you want to upgrade to someone who fits better with Kessel, but why is Sheahan as the 3C a problem when he has clearly played like a 3C for the Penguins? Yeah, he looks awkward when he plays, but his stats are absolutely 3rd line center caliber. Why is having that a problem for the Penguins winning? There aren't many players who would be better than what Sheahan has been in Pittsburgh so far.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Fact nobody would have ever guessed. Sheahan now has the 3rd highest p/60 even strength on the team.

Hes been great.

The Sheahan trade will go down as one of JR's best moves as a GM.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I really don't get why people think that having Sheahan as the 3C would be disastrous for the Penguins winning the cup. Sure, maybe you want to upgrade to someone who fits better with Kessel, but why is Sheahan as the 3C a problem when he has clearly played like a 3C for the Penguins? Yeah, he looks awkward when he plays, but his stats are absolutely 3rd line center caliber. Why is having that a problem for the Penguins winning? There aren't many players who would be better than what Sheahan has been in Pittsburgh so far.

Peageau definitely confuses me. I don't watch him much so maybe it's just a perfect style fit or something. But statistically he scores a bit less than Sheahan in a bit more ice time. If the issue is that Sheahan doesn't give us 3 scoring lines, I just don't get why Pageau will.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I think a worse player than Guentzel can make it a far better line than Guentzel did if it's the right player. Kessel and Sheahan would need someone to work the boards and play smart (honestly someone like how Hags is playing lately). Honestly, I don't know who is all available. I'm not disagreeing with the theory, and C is definitely a more important position.

Theoretically maybe? It's more "throw shit at the wall" than a good bet though, I think. We've got a pretty diverse collection of wingers, and none of them have been able to make a Sheahan-centered 3rd line look like a scoring line for any decent length of time.

I would pick Tampa to beat us, but I would still say he have a legitimate chance to beat anybody. And that's pretty much as-is. Our best players are just so damn good. Add in some upgrades at wing or on the 4th line, and it gets even closer. My ideal add would be a 3C as well, but I don't think it's the only way to upgrade this team.

Obviously I do too. I just disagree with your assessment of how low our chances are with Sheahan at 3C. If we add a guy like Pageau, we have done more to upgrade our 4th line by replacing Rowney with Sheahan than we have to upgrade our 3rd line by replacing Sheahan with Pageau.

Anything can happen, right? We're a pretty good team. We just have a glaring hole in a key position that - if fixed - would greatly improve our chances.

My biggest priority is giving our team their absolute best chance to win during this window. If we have to overpay for the piece we need most...so be it. An LW seems like a consolation prize and comparative luxury.

 

[Ogrezilla]

We just have a glaring hole in a key position that - if fixed - would greatly improve our chances.

Can you explain to me why Pageau would fix what Sheahan can't do? I'm really confused looking at their stats.

I don't see how you can possibly think Pageau helps turn a line into a scoring line more than Evander Kane does.

 

[ColePens]

Hes been great.

The Sheahan trade will go down as one of JR's best moves as a GM.

I will very much so disagree with this. I don't even think it's the best of the reclamation projects. 3 stand out - Schultz, Oleksiak, and Sheahan. I think Schultz runs away with that one easily.

I think the Scuds/Daley deal will forever go down as his best. I put that above the Kessel one because we sort of were one of the only teams that could take Kessel, so the price drove down due to that. The Scuds deal was trading a non-tradeable player for someone who fit what we needed perfectly.

Props to Sheahan for playing his game and playing solid. I've made my case a million times for what I think about him. I personally would be fine giving him a "show me" deal similar to Schultz and let him get paid after that.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Can you explain to me why Pageau would fix what Sheahan can't do? I'm really confused looking at their stats.

I don't see how you can possibly think Pageau helps turn a line into a scoring line more than Evander Kane does.

Sheahan has a bad year last year so people have a perception of him that he can't score enough to be a 3rd line center.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I will very much so disagree with this. I don't even think it's the best of the reclamation projects. 3 stand out - Schultz, Oleksiak, and Sheahan. I think Schultz runs away with that one easily.

I think the Scuds/Daley deal will forever go down as his best. I put that above the Kessel one because we sort of were one of the only teams that could take Kessel, so the price drove down due to that. The Scuds deal was trading a non-tradeable player for someone who fit what we needed perfectly.

Props to Sheahan for playing his game and playing solid. I've made my case a million times for what I think about him. I personally would be fine giving him a "show me" deal similar to Schultz and let him get paid after that.

I said one of the best JR trades.

The Schultz Daily and Kessel trades all look really good now.

I just think Sheahan will continue to get better, we will look back at JR getting a 26 year old 3rd line center for peanuts as one of his better moves.

 

[Riptide]

Hes been great.

The Sheahan trade will go down as one of JR's best moves as a GM.

Not sure I'd go that far. I think that goes to the Kessel or Hornqvist deals. But from a pure value standpoint? Yeah Sheahan+4th for Wilson+3rd is amazing value.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The Sheahan trade is one of Rutherford's best, but it will never go down as the best because Sheahan doesn't have the high that guys like Kessel and Schultz have. I think basically a 3rd for Sheahan and a 4th for Oleksiak are great deals, but those guys just won't be good enough to say it's JR's most amazing trade. They'll peak as great 3rd liners or great bottom pair defensemen, Schultz at his best was a borderline #2D and Kessel is in contention for the Art Ross.

JR has made so many good trades that deals like this one seem less impressive, just because he has turned **** into gold multiple times.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Can you explain to me why Pageau would fix what Sheahan can't do? I'm really confused looking at their stats.

The only time in the last 3 years that Sheahan hasn't been driven into the dirt in every aspect of the game by Pageau is this half-season, with Sheahan playing on the defending 2-time champs where his most consistent linemates have been Guentzel and Kessel, and Pageau is playing on a trap team in Ottawa where his most consistent linemates have been Smith and Pyatt.

I showed this in a post a week or so ago, but the difference in ES production between Sheahan and Pageau over the last 3 years is actually smaller than the difference between Pageau and the likes of Thornton, Zetterberg, and Eichel. That is significant.

I don't see how you can possibly think Pageau helps turn a line into a scoring line more than Evander Kane does.

Because he's a center who can exploit Kessel at ES; Kane is a winger who plays with blinders on.

And there are any number of well-documented reasons why Kane could be a problem.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Sheahan has a bad year last year so people have a perception of him that he can't score enough to be a 3rd line center.

Pageau has a huge production advantage over Sheahan at ES over the last 3 years.

 

[Ogrezilla]

The only time in the last 3 years that Sheahan hasn't been driven into the dirt in every aspect of the game by Pageau is this half-season, with Sheahan playing on the defending 2-time champs where his most consistent linemates have been Guentzel and Kessel, and Pageau is playing on a trap team in Ottawa where his most consistent linemates have been Smith and Pyatt.

I showed this in a post a week or so ago, but the difference in ES production between Sheahan and Pageau over the last 3 years is actually smaller than the difference between Pageau and the likes of Thornton, Zetterberg, and Eichel. That is significant.

I really don't give a shit about the last three years. Sheahan right now with us isn't scoring enough, but you want to bring in a guy who scores about the same to fix the problem. Maybe you're right and he comes in here and clicks. But you are awfully confident in a big jump from him apparently.

Because he's a center who can exploit Kessel at ES; Kane is a winger who plays with blinders on.

And there are any number of well-documented reasons why Kane could be a problem.

And you think that guy who doesn't score any more will improve our offense more than a guy with a long history of scoring WAY more than either, just because he plays wing. There are a ton of reasons to prefer Pageau over Kane. Pageau helping his line score more than Kane is not one of those reasons.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

We don’t have the right LW to play with Kessel on L3. Jake and Sheary aren’t good fits and Hagelin is spoken for. ZAR is a few games in and doesn’t look like he’ll amount to much this season.

If we don't have the right LW for Phil Kessel, then why move Kessel to Line 3 in the first place? Why not keep together the best 1-2 punch in the NHL? Do people realize we have not 1, but TWO Hart trophy candidates this season and neither is named Sidney Crosby?

The only way Carl Hagelin doesn't become completely useless on offense is to have him skate with 71 and 81. Otherwise, no matter who centers Kessel and Hagelin, HBK is dead. There is no redux. John Tavares is not walking through that door. And that's basically what it would take.

A new 3C (or Sheahan), combined with two of Hornqvist, Rust, Sheary, Simon and maybe Sprong (if the coach gets his head out of his asss) should give us enough of a third line to win in the playoffs.

The sooner Mike Sullivan realizes that there is more than one way to build a winning lineup, the quicker we will start looking like the true No. 1 Cup contender that I believe we still are.

Separating Malkin and Kessel has been a stupid idea since Game 1 of this season. Together, they are so dominant they even make Hagelin look productive.

I really don't get why people think that having Sheahan as the 3C would be disastrous for the Penguins winning the cup. Sure, maybe you want to upgrade to someone who fits better with Kessel, but why is Sheahan as the 3C a problem when he has clearly played like a 3C for the Penguins? Yeah, he looks awkward when he plays, but his stats are absolutely 3rd line center caliber. Why is having that a problem for the Penguins winning? There aren't many players who would be better than what Sheahan has been in Pittsburgh so far.

Sheahan is not a problem. Never was. Carter Rowney is the problem. Always has been. JR has to make damn sure that Rowney is nowhere near Sullivan's lineup notes when the playoffs begin.

So if that means Sheahan on Line 4, or Line 3, so be it. Whatever gets Rowney out of the frickin' lineup, if not off the team, that is what I am on board with.

Not sure I'd go that far. I think that goes to the Kessel or Hornqvist deals. But from a pure value standpoint? Yeah Sheahan+4th for Wilson+3rd is amazing value.

Phil Kessel is JR's Ron Francis trade. Maybe he has to win a scoring title to have people grant him the respect he so richly deserves.

The fact Malkin and Kessel were left off the All-Star game roster without much of a mediatic stink is such a laughable state of affairs. Brian Boyle made the all-star team. Kris Letang is having one of the worst seasons of his career, if not thee worst, and he gets in.

What a joke.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Let's compare Pageau's stats to Sheahan's stats while taking out each of their worst seasons. That would obviously be last year for Sheahan and this year for Pageau. Since 2014-2015:

Pageau: 214 games, 41 goals and 95 points, 31 goals and 80 points at ES (13 SH points, 2 PP points)
Sheahan: 215 games, 32 goals and 81 points, 23 goals and 63 points at ES (16 PP points, 2 SH points)

You're grossly overestimating the difference between these two players. Sheahan has averaged around 31 points per 82 games over this stretch, with around 25 ES points over those 82 games. Pageau is at 36 points per 82 games, with around 31 ES points over those 82 games. There isn't some obscene difference between the two, unless you're looking at clearly outlier seasons that shouldn't be considered. Pageau is better offensively, but it's not by some obscene margin where it makes sense to pay out the ass to get him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I really don't give a **** about the last three years. Sheahan right now with us isn't scoring enough, but you want to bring in a guy who scores about the same to fix the problem.

Ogre, you're dismissing some very important context here.

Look at their teams. Look at their linemates. Look at the sample sizes.

I'm not sure how people can acknowledge a change in circumstances from Detroit to all that Pittsburgh has to offer can affect Sheahan's stats, but ignore those same factors in a prospective center target. How does that make sense?

And you think that guy who doesn't score any more will improve our offense more than a guy with a long history of scoring WAY more than either, just because he plays wing. There are a ton of reasons to prefer Pageau over Kane. But there's also no question which one does more to help a line score. It's Kane.

This is truly bizarre.

Pageau does score more than Sheahan, as I showed. And the key to our 3rd line is exploiting Kessel, which Kane really doesn't do...on top of all the other red flags that come with him.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Not sure I'd go that far. I think that goes to the Kessel or Hornqvist deals. But from a pure value standpoint? Yeah Sheahan+4th for Wilson+3rd is amazing value.

Yeah, that's what i mean form a value standpoint.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Ogre, you're dismissing some very important context here.

Look at their teams. Look at their linemates. Look at the sample sizes.

I'm not sure how people can acknowledge a change in circumstances from Detroit to all that Pittsburgh has to offer can affect Sheahan's stats, but ignore those same factors in a prospective center target. How does that make sense?

There obviously are a change in circumstances. But enough that I'd be confident in Pageau coming in and solving this supposed hole we have at 3C? More than Evander Kane would help a line? No.

Pageau does score more than Sheahan, as I showed. And the key to our 3rd line is exploiting Kessel, which Kane really doesn't do...on top of all the other red flags that come with him.

He scores more than Sheahan did in Detroit.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Let's compare Pageau's stats to Sheahan's stats while taking out each of their worst seasons. That would obviously be last year for Sheahan and this year for Pageau. Since 2014-2015:

Pageau: 214 games, 41 goals and 95 points, 31 goals and 80 points at ES (13 SH points, 2 PP points)
Sheahan: 215 games, 32 goals and 81 points, 23 goals and 63 points at ES (16 PP points, 2 SH points)

You're grossly overestimating the difference between these two players. Sheahan has averaged around 31 points per 82 games over this stretch, with around 25 ES points over those 82 games. Pageau is at 36 points per 82 games, with around 31 ES points over those 82 games. There isn't some obscene difference between the two, unless you're looking at clearly outlier seasons that shouldn't be considered. Pageau is better offensively, but it's not by some obscene margin where it makes sense to pay out the ass to get him.

You cherry-picked a sample size that includes Pageau's first full-time season and Sheahan's best full-time season (both 4 years ago), and Pageau still stomps him.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Here's the really confusing thing I see. Let's pretend that the Penguins didn't already say no to Pageau, and they were still in the bidding for him. The rumored asking price according to KIRK is something like Sprong and a high pick for Pageau. That's basically what the Penguins gave up for Kessel, which was basically Kapanen and a 1st plus some filler. So why does it make sense to do that? You'd have to severely overpay for a player that isn't having a good season and isn't even as good as people like to think he is.

You cherry-picked a sample size that includes Pageau's first full-time season and Sheahan's best full-time season (both 4 years ago), and Pageau still stomps him.

Go read Sheahan's stats again. Crazy thought: I included both of their first full time seasons, because 2014-2015 was Sheahan's first full time season. I didn't cherrypick anything, I excluded the clear outlier seasons and started when both became "full time" NHLers. And if you think a 5 point difference is "stomping him", well, I don't know what to tell you.

 

[cheesedanish87]

Pageau has a huge production advantage over Sheahan at ES over the last 3 years.

What's your point?

Sheahan was a reclamation project, that's why they didn't have to give up much to get him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

There obviously are a change in circumstances. But enough that I'd be confident in Pageau coming in and solving this supposed hole we have at 3C? More than Evander Kane would help a line? No.

We certainly disagree there. And again, that's not even considering that Kane has the worst on and off-ice rap sheet of any player in the NHL.

He scores more than Sheahan did in Detroit.

He scores a lot more than Sheahan when you expand the scope beyond a half-season sample size with considerably different circumstances, and even then he keeps pace despite having Smith on his wing instead of Kessel.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

What's your point?

Sheahan was a reclamation project, that's why they didn't have to give up much to get him.

That Pageau's advantage isn't based on one bad season from Sheahan, like you suggested. He's produced a lot better at ES for a long time.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sheahan before 2013-2014: 2 games
Pageau before 2013-2014: 9 games

Sheahan in 2013-2014: 42 games
Pageau in 2013-2014: 28 games

Sheahan in 2014-2015: 79 games
Pageau in 2014-2015: 50 games

Are you really going to argue that I'm cherrypicking stats based on Pageau's first full season by starting in 2014-2015, or does that not apply to Sheahan because he played in 7 more NHL games than Pageau did before 2014-2015?

 

[Ogrezilla]

We certainly disagree there. And again, that's not even considering that Kane has the worst on and off-ice rap sheet of any player in the NHL.



He scores a lot more than Sheahan when you expand the scope beyond a half-season sample size with considerably different circumstances, and even then he keeps pace despite having Smith on his wing instead of Kessel.

And that year where he centered Stone or Ryan on a regular basis doesn't help Pageau? Bums, the both of them.