Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Monday, February 26

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TheGoldenJet

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Still hoping against hope for a MaxPac or JVR type pickup on LW.

Personally I don't like Hornqvist with a Malkin. It hasn't worked for 3 years, it won't start now (a few good games aside).

Give me Kessel with Malkin, or failing that, Rust.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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Kuhnhackl will play unless we have someone clearly better on LW. When Hornqvist/Sheary come back Reaves/ZAR will sit. Then when we get a centre Rowney will sit. We don’t have a LW to push him out. I’d like a LW anyway to have:

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon
Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist
XXXX-XXXX-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Rust

Yeah that 4th line probably isn't going to work, also you're leaving quite the massive gap on that 3rd line that will require us to forfeit Sprong +++ to land 2 pieces that would make that line as effective as it would need to be to cover Sullivan's stubbornness to make the line-up the way it should be.

When Sheary and Hornqvist is back, someone has to go to make room. ZAR will get sent back down, but then when Sheary is back, we have I think 2 extra forwards and then 2 extra D.
 

Tom Hanks

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Still hoping against hope for a MaxPac or JVR type pickup on LW.

Personally I don't like Hornqvist with a Malkin. It hasn't worked for 3 years, it won't start now (a few good games aside).

Give me Kessel with Malkin, or failing that, Rust.

It’s been working more than a few games. It’s the sum of all of them that make it work. Hags and Horny do all the heavier work. It keeps Malkin fresher and allows him to be in good positions to shoot. 15 goals in 14 games and is shooting at 35%. It’s a line that can shutdown teams too.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
77,316
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Still hoping against hope for a MaxPac or JVR type pickup on LW.

Personally I don't like Hornqvist with a Malkin. It hasn't worked for 3 years, it won't start now (a few good games aside).

Give me Kessel with Malkin, or failing that, Rust.

I liked Kessel with Malkin, with Hagelin playing much better, I don't see why HMK shouldn't be a thing, even GMK was a good trio for a stretch. The thing with Geno's line is that there are so many options, the only line that seems to be limiting is Sid's because he likes a certain type of player and only seems to really mesh well with that type of player. So how do you remedy that and also make sure the 3rd line doesn't get shafted?

Guentzel, Crosby, Simon
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
Rust, Sheahan, Hornqvist
Sheary, 4C, someone rotates in?

Or do you go...

Sheary, Sheahan, Hornqvist
Kuhnhackl, 4C, Rust

And spread that depth out even more, making it so JR really just needs a very solid 4C and we're good to go. Everyone's hope is Cullen, but if the Ducks slip out, I am 100% all for Vermette.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
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It’s been working more than a few games. It’s the sum of all of them that make it work. Hags and Horny do all the heavier work. It keeps Malkin fresher and allows him to be in good positions to shoot. 15 goals in 14 games and is shooting at 35%. It’s a line that can shutdown teams too.

I think it's worked largely due to the fact that Hagelin is the best on this team for puck retrieval (Rust being second) and then Hornqvist is just reckless abandon packaged into a crazy person and all Malkin has to do is just get to near the net where Horny is causing mayhem and Hagelin is speeding around keeping the puck in. It has worked in that sense, but let's not forget that Kessel & Geno were keeping this team afloat near the start of the season when Sid decided to mail it in 95% of the time.

Geno & Kessel do work and they work very well when both are on their game, which they are. Hagelin is too. If there was ever a time to give it a whirl again, it'd be now while Horny is out, make a few quick changes and roll those lines.

While Sheary & Horny are out...

Guentzel, Crosby, Simon
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
ZAR, Sheahan, Rust
Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Reaves
 

Tom Hanks

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Yeah that 4th line probably isn't going to work, also you're leaving quite the massive gap on that 3rd line that will require us to forfeit Sprong +++ to land 2 pieces that would make that line as effective as it would need to be to cover Sullivan's stubbornness to make the line-up the way it should be.

When Sheary and Hornqvist is back, someone has to go to make room. ZAR will get sent back down, but then when Sheary is back, we have I think 2 extra forwards and then 2 extra D.

Yeah a forward or D will need to be sent down (along with ZAR) to make room. It won’t be a D. It won’t be Rowney because he’s a centre. JR won’t put Reaves through waivers so it’d have to be Kuhnhackl
 

Tom Hanks

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I think it's worked largely due to the fact that Hagelin is the best on this team for puck retrieval (Rust being second) and then Hornqvist is just reckless abandon packaged into a crazy person and all Malkin has to do is just get to near the net where Horny is causing mayhem and Hagelin is speeding around keeping the puck in. It has worked in that sense, but let's not forget that Kessel & Geno were keeping this team afloat near the start of the season when Sid decided to mail it in 95% of the time.

Geno & Kessel do work and they work very well when both are on their game, which they are. Hagelin is too. If there was ever a time to give it a whirl again, it'd be now while Horny is out, make a few quick changes and roll those lines.

While Sheary & Horny are out...

Guentzel, Crosby, Simon
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
ZAR, Sheahan, Rust
Kuhnhackl, Rowney, Reaves

The injuries really hurt. I know Sheary has had a down year but that’s a sad bottom 6 with him and Horny out.

I do like L1. I think that should be a permanent line. Simon is a midget but has better D and IQ than Sheary. Simon’s strength is actually pretty good for a 175 pound guy.

L2 is the best way to go for now. If Kessel was on L3 you’d want Rust with him then there would be no one good enough to play with Geno.

Hope the bottom 6 breaks even and the top 6 to do what they’ve done lately.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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Yeah a forward or D will need to be sent down (along with ZAR) to make room. It won’t be a D. It won’t be Rowney because he’s a centre. JR won’t put Reaves through waivers so it’d have to be Kuhnhackl

It might not even be Kuhnhackl, Sullivan loves that he likes to block shots.

Kuhnhackl gets 3rd highest SHTOI/G on this team after Hagelin and Rowney (Sheahan is right after Kuhnhackl).

Then you look at blocked shots (by forward rank and BS & Give aways/Take aways).

1. Hornqvist - 45 (17/21)
2. Kuhnhackl - 41 (8/10)
3. Guentzel - 30 (8/16)
4. Rust - 29 (14/19)
5. Sheahan - 27 (12/20)

Our best GVA/TKA ratio players...

1. Hagelin +11
2. Sheahan +8
3. Hornqvist +8
4. Guentzel +8
5. Rust +5

Rowney is -2
Reaves is even.
Simon is +3
Kuhnhackl is +2
Kessel is -14
Malkin is -16
Crosby is -24
Sheary is +2
Sprong -2
Dea - 1

Horny & Hagelin being positive with take aways is a huge influence on Malkin's game. That 4th line is not overwhelmingly good at that part of their game. Sheahan is and it would make more sense to go Guentzel-Sheahan-Rust as a trio actually.

Rowney being C might be a good thing, but Rowney brings nothing besides PK minutes and I think we're fine there to play someone else more without Rowney.

PS: Just for fun...

JG Pageau.

31 giveaways, 17 takeaways (-14)
43 blocked shots (there's a +!)
Plays about the same as Sheahan on the PK
52% FO.
 
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Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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The injuries really hurt. I know Sheary has had a down year but that’s a sad bottom 6 with him and Horny out.

I do like L1. I think that should be a permanent line. Simon is a midget but has better D and IQ than Sheary. Simon’s strength is actually pretty good for a 175 pound guy.

L2 is the best way to go for now. If Kessel was on L3 you’d want Rust with him then there would be no one good enough to play with Geno.

Hope the bottom 6 breaks even and the top 6 to do what they’ve done lately.
Simon is the same height as Crosby.

Actually, when Horny is back, I'd take Simon off of his line and put Rust back up there on the RW.

Guentzel, Crosby, Rust
Hagelin, Malkin, Kessel
Simon, Sheahan, Hornqvist

4th line isn't even worth trying to figure out because the option sucks, we all fixate on Kuhn, but he's like the least terrible player of the other two options of Reaves and Rowney in terms of their game, not their "unique" skills.

Simon has cooled off with Crosby, before Sullivan demotes him (unless his waiver eligibility is gone), I'd rather move him off that top line and put him with Sheahan and bump up Guentzel there, Jake needs Sid and I think Sid's game can use Jake.
 

Honour Over Glory

Fire Sully
Jan 30, 2012
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The funny thing about Kessel & Sheahan is that Sheahan has 4pts in 5 games, Phil has 9pts in 5 games (2 of those being PPP).

Kessel & Sheahan can work, but Guentzel CAN NOT be that 3rd winger.
 
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Peat

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Those points don't really come from being together though. I feel like Kessel & Sheahan have shown odd signs of working, but its not reflected in the stats.


In any case, I don't think "Is Pageau worth X more than Sheahan is the right question".

Its "Is Pageau worth X more than Rowney" and "Is Pageau worth X more than other realistic trade target". Because we know we want another centre and we know we want quality, its just a matter of what's worth what.
 
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TheGoldenJet

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It’s been working more than a few games. It’s the sum of all of them that make it work. Hags and Horny do all the heavier work. It keeps Malkin fresher and allows him to be in good positions to shoot. 15 goals in 14 games and is shooting at 35%. It’s a line that can shutdown teams too.

Many of those goals are assisted by (or the work of) Phil Kessel, not Hornqvist though.
 

Riptide

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Dec 29, 2011
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Kuhnhackl will play unless we have someone clearly better on LW. When Hornqvist/Sheary come back Reaves/ZAR will sit. Then when we get a centre Rowney will sit. We don’t have a LW to push him out. I’d like a LW anyway to have:

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon
Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist
XXXX-XXXX-Kessel
Sheary-Sheahan-Rust
Your issue on that is the lack of PKer's. Sheahan, 3C, Hagelin and Rust won't cut it. If you want to push Kuhnhackl out of the lineup, you need to do so with a LW who can also PK.
 
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Peat

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You're issue on that is the lack of PKer's. Sheahan, 3C, Hagelin and Rust won't cut it. If you want to push Kuhnhackl out of the lineup, you need to do so with a LW who can also PK.

Not impossible to find.

Also, Guentzel & Crosby can patch the gaps behind those four PKing without needing Kuhnhackl. Not ideal, but better than Kuhn...
 
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xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sep 5, 2008
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I don't think it's correct or fair to use stats on unrelated teams with unrelated linemates to determine how guys may/may not fit here. As long as the guy is young enough to be around for a while, has speed, and is capable of getting Kessel the puck with regularity, he'll be a fine addition to 3C. If that's Pageau, and I would say it is, so be it. His stats with the Sens and much weaker linemates than Kessel, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Rust, or whomever else we play with him don't matter much to me. I'd be shocked if any guy's production didn't go up pretty dramatically on this team as the 3C with the wingers he'll play with and sheltered minutes behind Sid and Geno's lines.
 

Riptide

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I liked Kessel with Malkin, with Hagelin playing much better, I don't see why HMK shouldn't be a thing, even GMK was a good trio for a stretch. The thing with Geno's line is that there are so many options, the only line that seems to be limiting is Sid's because he likes a certain type of player and only seems to really mesh well with that type of player. So how do you remedy that and also make sure the 3rd line doesn't get shafted?

Because if we can get the same production from HMH that we can from GMK/HMK while giving our 3rd line better wingers to increase the production there, then as long as the overall production is greater or the same, it should be pretty obvious as to the benefits that having Kessel on his own line creates. It's a matchup nightmare for other teams - something that no one handled well in 15/16. TB (or was it SJ?) finally decided to ignore Malkin's line and focused on HBK. But it made no difference. That should be the goal here.

And unless Guentzel and Hornqvist or some other pair of wingers we haven't tried yet - either with Sheahan or with another center can be just as productive and as much as a threat to score, we should be doing everything possible to keep Kessel on the 3rd line. Even if only because of the name/star value that would be involved. I mean that was one of the reasons NYR/WSH focused their top guys on Crosby and Malkin's lines - because it was Malkin. And if him and Kessel are together, then regardless of how well that 3rd line is doing, Malkin and Kessel will both be seeing the toughest matchup's. Not the end of the world if the 3rd line can still produce... but we should be doing everything possible to give it the best chance we can... and for now in an ideal world that's with Kessel on the 3rd line.

For now I'd like to see the following lineup (when healthy). A rental that I think makes a lot of sense is Pouliot. I was opposed before, but after some thought I think he'd be a great fit as a depth player that can knock Kuhnhackl out of the lineup. We find a better/different 3C that fits better, push Sheahan down.

Guentzel - Crosby - Simon
Hagelin - Malkin - Hornqvist
Rust - Sheahan - Kessel
Sheary - XXXXX - XXXXX

That would give you a lot of different options, and a few different types of players that could be plugged in throughout the lineup. Pouliot would also be capable of replacing Kuhnhackl on the PK - which is I think the only thing keeping him in the lineup (PK/defensive game).

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - Kessel
Pouliot - Sheahan - Sheary
XXXXX - XXXXX - Rust

Simon - Crosby - Hornqvist
Guentzel - Malkin - Rust
Hagelin - Sheahan - Kessel
Pouliot - XXXXX - Sheary

But my ideal lineup's are 1/3 instead of 2. I think the scoring will be more balanced, and something that will give the other teams much more trouble then what #2 will do. 2 is basically what we had last year... and it was more of a "I dare you to try and stop this". It worked, and for that I'll be ever thankful - especially that it was B2B. But I think one only needs to look at how different 15/16 vs 16/17 were to see the obvious advantages a very good 3rd line would give us. It's just a matter of how to make it work with the options available to us (internally/externally).
 

Riptide

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The funny thing about Kessel & Sheahan is that Sheahan has 4pts in 5 games, Phil has 9pts in 5 games (2 of those being PPP).

Kessel & Sheahan can work, but Guentzel CAN NOT be that 3rd winger.

Well some of Kessel's points have come when playing on other lines. But I agree that I think those two could work. But Guentzel and Sheary are probably the worst wingers we could put on that line as the 3rd winger.

But I don't mind the Guentzel - Sheahan - Rust idea. Keeps Rust on his stronger side and still puts some skill on the line with Guentzel. My fear however is that the 3rd line still wouldn't be enough of a threat to really take advantage of the matchup's. Which then means Malkin/Kessel basically have to say FU to everyone and still produce despite whatever coverage they're getting. Not impossible, but harder then it needs to be in an ideal world.
 

Saints11

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Does anyone see the possibility of moving Sheary rather than putting him in the bottom 6? Granted he may be decent on a forecheck because of his speed, but once in or on the other side of the neutral zone, he makes Phil look like a Salke winner. He plays high in the d-zone constantly looking for breakout passes. You need more out of a bottom 6 winger.
 

Shwag33

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Going to be hard to move sheary with his injury most likely going past the trade deadline.
 

ColePens

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Still hoping against hope for a MaxPac or JVR type pickup on LW.

Personally I don't like Hornqvist with a Malkin. It hasn't worked for 3 years, it won't start now (a few good games aside).

Give me Kessel with Malkin, or failing that, Rust.

As everyone has already said - Horny is really working with Geno and it's not just geno. Hags/Horny are really playing well with Geno and opening space up for him. You can even ask KIRK, his biggest Geno linemate critic of all time. Those 2 deserve credit.

And JVR looks like he can barely skate anymore when I watch Toronto. Re-sign Hornqvist. Stay the hell away from JVR.
 
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Dipsy Doodle

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Well ****, if he can score 31 ES points with Hoffman and 32 ES points with Stone as his wingers... clearly that's the massive upgrade we need over the 29 ES point pace our current 3C is putting up. :laugh: :sarcasm:

Sounds like he's definitely worth Sprong+. :sarcasm:

Playing on the Senators, under Guy Boucher, and for longer than one half-season. And none of those wingers are Phil Kessel. As I showed over a 3 year sample size, the offensive difference at ES between Sheahan and Pageau is smaller than that between Pageau and the likes of Zetterberg, Eichel, and Thornton.

So yeah, there's a metric ton of evidence qualitatively, quantitatively, and circumstantially that Pageau is a better offensive center...provided you don't willfully ignore important factors like context and sample size.
 
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NMK11

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Apr 6, 2013
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Your issue on that is the lack of PKer's. Sheahan, 3C, Hagelin and Rust won't cut it. If you want to push Kuhnhackl out of the lineup, you need to do so with a LW who can also PK.
If we get a 3C that PKs were fine. Having four guys who are solid on the PK is enough, plus Sid and Jake can see some time here and there. Hell, Id even like to see Malkin take an odd PK shift at the end of a penalty just to back up the point players.

Going to be hard to move sheary with his injury most likely going past the trade deadline.
Im kind of scared about this, because hes really one of the few trade pieces that other teams would actually want that we would be ok losing. After him is Rust, who might net us less as a rental and whom I think we would miss more once the playoffs start.
 

TheGoldenJet

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Apr 2, 2008
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As everyone has already said - Horny is really working with Geno and it's not just geno. Hags/Horny are really playing well with Geno and opening space up for him. You can even ask KIRK, his biggest Geno linemate critic of all time. Those 2 deserve credit.

And JVR looks like he can barely skate anymore when I watch Toronto. Re-sign Hornqvist. Stay the hell away from JVR.

JVR can skate. He is going to get paid this summer, but as a UFA TDL rental I'd want him for this Cup run. I agree that we should not be signing him into his mid 30s.

As for Hornqvist, I maintain that 3 years of fail outweighs a few good games this year for the oil and water Geno/Horny combo. Maybe they prove me wrong in the stretch run, but with Horny coming back from a LBI and likely to be even slower now, I doubt it.
 

Talisman

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Nov 7, 2015
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Simon-Crosby-Sprong
Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist
Guentzel-Sheahan-Kessel
Sheary-ZAR-Rust

Or

Guentzel-Crosby-Simon
Hagelin-Malkin-Hornqvist
Sprong-Sheahan-Kessel
Sheary-ZAR-Rust
 

Empoleon8771

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Aug 25, 2015
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Redmond, WA
People might say this package isn't enough, but I think Cole and Gustavsson for Pageau might get you pretty close to Pageau, if Ottawa is looking to sell off Pageau for a reasonable price. It depends on how highly they value Gus and what the market is for Cole, though. If they like Gustavsson a lot and Cole can bring back a 2nd or more, I don't think it's bad.
 
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