Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building: Malkin Avengers - EndGame

[Riptide]

Malkin has had people from the Penguins come over and train him throughout his career.

This is from 2012: Malkin Bringing Trainer Back to Moscow

Malkin is at his best when he gathers speed through the neutral zone and has space to hang onto the puck. This defense and many of the forward group don't allow him to do that. Crosby has always been more adaptable (except for when Mike Johnston was coach) because his game has always been that way. Malkin can still play the way that suits him best if the Penguins put the right types of players on the ice.

Only part of Malkin's play this season was due to shitty linemates. To think otherwise is just burying your head in the sand and hoping the issue goes away...

 

[DesertedPenguin]

All of this Malkin has originated from one source: Jim Rutherford.

The same Jim Rutherford who made hiring Mike Johnston, a meek and professorial junior coach with no NHL experience, his first major move. The same one who has mixed quality trades for the likes of Patric Hornqvist, Phil Kessel, Nick Bonino, Justin Schultz, and Jared McCann with bizarre deals to acquire Daniel Winnik, Riley Sheahan, Ryan Reaves, and Tanner Pearson.

The same Rutherford who has been obsessed with employing enforcers, from Daniel Carcillo and Steve Downie to Tom Sestito and Reaves. The same Rutherford who looked at Matt Hunwick, Jack Johnson, and Antii Niemi and somehow saw them as quality players.

None of this is new. Rutherford made a series of questionable moves in Carolina and took a team that won a Stanley Cup after the lockout and then reached the conference finals in 2009 and ensured they missed the playoffs for six straight years under his watch.

 

[T1K]

All of this Malkin has originated from one source: Jim Rutherford.

The same Jim Rutherford who made hiring Mike Johnston, a meek and professorial junior coach with no NHL experience, his first major move. The same one who has mixed quality trades for the likes of Patric Hornqvist, Phil Kessel, Nick Bonino, Justin Schultz, and Jared McCann with bizarre deals to acquire Daniel Winnik, Riley Sheahan, Ryan Reaves, and Tanner Pearson.

The same Rutherford who has been obsessed with employing enforcers, from Daniel Carcillo and Steve Downie to Tom Sestito and Reaves. The same Rutherford who looked at Matt Hunwick, Jack Johnson, and Antii Niemi and somehow saw them as quality players.

None of this is new. Rutherford made a series of questionable moves in Carolina and took a team that won a Stanley Cup after the lockout and then reached the conference finals in 2009 and ensured they missed the playoffs for six straight years under his watch.

What a stupid post.

He won two cups for us. It’s funny how you neglected to mention that. People have expiry dates for any job, I think GMJR has reached his, but let’s not act like the guy hasn’t done anything for us. He salvaged Sid and Geno’s legacies. Have you forgotten how bad Shero was, or am I taking crazy pills?

 

[Tender Rip]

Only part of Malkin's play this season was due to ****ty linemates. To think otherwise is just burying your head in the sand and hoping the issue goes away...

Indeed. Some is on him and some is on injuries. For sure.

But please let it be known for the record that against the Islanders, Malkin was a good deal better than Sid (not that it says much) despite not having the same level of support.
Regular season... obviously no comparison.... but the narratives about poor decision making and lack of drive etc... Sid had 9 giveaways and 0 takeaways in the playoffs. Geno 7 and 5. Sid had 6 shots for the series. Geno 11. Malkin was -1, which can be accounted for by Bailey's EN goal in game 4. Sid was -4 and the most active line matching from Sullivan at home was to try and get Sid away from the Isles 4th line.... that in our series was made virtually their 1st as it owned ours. Malkin had 1 goal and 3 points, tied for the team lead, Sid had 1 assist.

If we had a successful playoffs (or just a decent campaign) everyone writes off the regular season and focuses on how Geno was right there when it mattered. Now instead a monumental team wide failure top to bottom, including GM and coaches, is becoming a story about a moody Russian and no one can point to any single public comment from Geno where he says anything that is remotely disrespectful. Indeed, him suggesting that we need to learn from the defeat and the structure with which the Isles played should be just common sense.

 

[turd]

What a stupid post.

He won two cups for us. It’s funny how you neglected to mention that. People have expiry dates for any job, I think GMJR has reached his, but let’s not act like the guy hasn’t done anything for us. He salvaged Sid and Geno’s legacies. Have you forgotten how bad Shero was, or am I taking crazy pills?

Did you read his post? He gave him credit for the moves that resulted in a Cup but (rightly) pointed out how he’s also made horrible moves and he’s also most responsible for destroying Carolina for a while.

You can appreciate what JR (and Sullivan) has provided for the franchise and also think that he should be fired because he’s starting to put this team on the same track as his old Carolina teams.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

What a stupid post.

He won two cups for us. It’s funny how you neglected to mention that. People have expiry dates for any job, I think GMJR has reached his, but let’s not act like the guy hasn’t done anything for us. He salvaged Sid and Geno’s legacies. Have you forgotten how bad Shero was, or am I taking crazy pills?

Shero had a vision for how the Penguins should play. It was the wrong one, made worse by his refusal to move on from Bylsma, but it was still a coherent plan.

Rutherford has no vision. He took a team built on moving the puck and played with speed and promptly dismantled it. This Penguins team lacks an identity. Ignore everything they say about how they want to play and instead look at the parts. Is this current defense built to move the puck quickly, maintain possession, skate out of danger, and gain the offensive blue line? Is the bottom six built to do that? Are there smart, decisive players throughout the lineup? Are there agile, quick players throughout the lineup?

That is all on Rutherford. It's one thing to have a plan and for it to fail. It's another to be as haphazardly run as the current Penguins roster.

 

[tom_servo]

Why would any sane GM trade Malkin? Is he trying to get immediately fired with the trade etched on his tombstone?

 

[Coach Travis]

First thing this team should do on July 1st is sign Matt Duchene. Evolving Wild has him projected at 6 years @ $7M ($6,902,850.62 to be exact). Whether we need to run a super line of Duchene-Crosby-Guentzel (ala the Bruins' Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak), or put him with Geno & Kessel and move McCann up, or have him as a 3C, that's going to give opponents nightmarish matchups no matter how they're configured.

 

[Tender Rip]

Shero had a vision for how the Penguins should play. It was the wrong one, made worse by his refusal to move on from Bylsma, but it was still a coherent plan.

Rutherford has no vision. He took a team built on moving the puck and played with speed and promptly dismantled it.

That is at least incomplete. Rutherford himself made the team that played with speed. From getting Kessel, hiring Sullivan and signing players who could make this our MO (again) - Daley and Hags being transformative, while bringing up quick kids from WBS.
You can say that he went away from that, but I don't think it was a conscious decision as much as it was subsequent signings being bad/not working out anywhere near like the former ones did, while some of our guys took a clear step back at the same time (Rust, Horny, Maatta and Geno this season).

Matt Hunwick last season was an attempt at getting a player whose strengths - or perceived such - better fit the speed game than Ron Hainsey (who I wanted to keep if salary permitted, and who was btw. the Leafs best D-man against Boston). Jack Johnson they seem to have just completely misread, or perhaps Sid had too much of a hand in that... something rarely speculated on.

Rutherford on getting Johnson: “One of the things we lacked last year was three pairings that we had a puck-mover on. Jack’s a good skater, good puck mover. He can play both sides. He can play on either special team.”

I think he said basically the same about Hunwick, which didn't seem completely inane after the playoffs Hunwick had. I mean, it has turned out to be comically wrong (in both cases), but the player evaluation more so than then reasoning leading to wanting such a type of player. They wanted 2016 Daley, they got JMFJ.
That's still on JR, but it doesn't mean its the vision that is wrong or lacking.

I also think we have had occasions where there was young speed to utilize, but Sullivan simply chose not to, going with physical instead. Moreover, that there is a total disconnect between the D and F, that players look devoid of options and we were both an abomination in giving up odd man rushes and allowing short handed goals against this season - that goes to coaching (or the coach not getting through) much more so than it does the GM.

 

[Andy99]

First thing this team should do on July 1st is sign Matt Duchene. Evolving Wild has him projected at 6 years @ $7M ($6,902,850.62 to be exact). Whether we need to run a super line of Duchene-Crosby-Guentzel (ala the Bruins' Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak), or put him with Geno & Kessel and move McCann up, or have him as a 3C, that's going to give opponents nightmarish matchups no matter how they're configured.

Where are we getting the money from for Duchene if we’re keeping Phil?...and please don’t tell me Maatta and JJ because we all know JJ is going nowhere since the GM can’t see players clearly.
Also,I think Duchene has been previously quoted as saying that he wants to play center...

 

[SHOOTANDSCORE]

All of this Malkin has originated from one source: Jim Rutherford.

The same Jim Rutherford who made hiring Mike Johnston, a meek and professorial junior coach with no NHL experience, his first major move. The same one who has mixed quality trades for the likes of Patric Hornqvist, Phil Kessel, Nick Bonino, Justin Schultz, and Jared McCann with bizarre deals to acquire Daniel Winnik, Riley Sheahan, Ryan Reaves, and Tanner Pearson.

The same Rutherford who has been obsessed with employing enforcers, from Daniel Carcillo and Steve Downie to Tom Sestito and Reaves. The same Rutherford who looked at Matt Hunwick, Jack Johnson, and Antii Niemi and somehow saw them as quality players.

None of this is new. Rutherford made a series of questionable moves in Carolina and took a team that won a Stanley Cup after the lockout and then reached the conference finals in 2009 and ensured they missed the playoffs for six straight years under his watch.

I'm not sure how you can blame JR for hiring MJ. There weren't good coaches available at that point and the team's first 2 choices turned the Pens down.

 

[Andy99]

That is at least incomplete. Rutherford himself made the team that played with speed. From getting Kessel, hiring Sullivan and signing players who could make this our MO (again) - Daley and Hags being transformative, while bringing up quick kids from WBS.
You can say that he went away from that, but I don't think it was a conscious decision as much as it was subsequent signings being bad/not working out anywhere near like the former ones did, while some of our guys took a clear step back at the same time (Rust, Horny, Maatta and Geno this season).

Matt Hunwick last season was an attempt at getting a player whose strengths - or perceived such - better fit the speed game than Ron Hainsey (who I wanted to keep if salary permitted, and who was btw. the Leafs best D-man against Boston). Jack Johnson they seem to have just completely misread, or perhaps Sid had too much of a hand in that... something rarely speculated on.

Rutherford on getting Johnson: “One of the things we lacked last year was three pairings that we had a puck-mover on. Jack’s a good skater, good puck mover. He can play both sides. He can play on either special team.”

I think he said basically the same about Hunwick, which didn't seem completely inane after the playoffs Hunwick had. I mean, it has turned out to be comically wrong (in both cases), but the player evaluation more so than then reasoning leading to wanting such a type of player. They wanted 2016 Daley, they got JMFJ.
That's still on JR, but it doesn't mean its the vision that is wrong or lacking.

I also think we have had occasions where there was young speed to utilize, but Sullivan simply chose not to, going with physical instead. Moreover, that there is a total disconnect between the D and F, that players look devoid of options and we were both an abomination in giving up odd man rushes and allowing short handed goals against this season - that goes to coaching (or the coach not getting through) much more so than it does the GM.

So the GM is clueless is about players and should fire the coach and then himself...just what I thought...

 

[Ugene Magic]

First thing this team should do on July 1st is sign Matt Duchene. Evolving Wild has him projected at 6 years @ $7M ($6,902,850.62 to be exact). Whether we need to run a super line of Duchene-Crosby-Guentzel (ala the Bruins' Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak), or put him with Geno & Kessel and move McCann up, or have him as a 3C, that's going to give opponents nightmarish matchups no matter how they're configured.

Duchene would match up nicely putting him with Kessel. Allows for the north/south game more.

I'm not wasting Duchene and his faceoffs at wing.

 

[T1K]

Did you read his post? He gave him credit for the moves that resulted in a Cup but (rightly) pointed out how he’s also made horrible moves and he’s also most responsible for destroying Carolina for a while.

You can appreciate what JR (and Sullivan) has provided for the franchise and also think that he should be fired because he’s starting to put this team on the same track as his old Carolina teams.

Yes, he described the good trades as “mixed quality” and didn’t mention winning the cups in Pittsburgh.

In terms of GMJR, he hasn’t traded Malkin yet. We hear these Malkin trade rumors every year. I want to hear a more credible reporter speculate before I’d ever entertain that seriously.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I'm not sure how you can blame JR for hiring MJ. There weren't good coaches available at that point and the team's first 2 choices turned the Pens down.

One of those choices was Willie Desjardins. Not exactly the cream of the crop there.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

That is at least incomplete. Rutherford himself made the team that played with speed. From getting Kessel, hiring Sullivan and signing players who could make this our MO (again) - Daley and Hags being transformative, while bringing up quick kids from WBS.
You can say that he went away from that, but I don't think it was a conscious decision as much as it was subsequent signings being bad/not working out anywhere near like the former ones did, while some of our guys took a clear step back at the same time (Rust, Horny, Maatta and Geno this season).

Matt Hunwick last season was an attempt at getting a player whose strengths - or perceived such - better fit the speed game than Ron Hainsey (who I wanted to keep if salary permitted, and who was btw. the Leafs best D-man against Boston). Jack Johnson they seem to have just completely misread, or perhaps Sid had too much of a hand in that... something rarely speculated on.

Rutherford on getting Johnson: “One of the things we lacked last year was three pairings that we had a puck-mover on. Jack’s a good skater, good puck mover. He can play both sides. He can play on either special team.”

I think he said basically the same about Hunwick, which didn't seem completely inane after the playoffs Hunwick had. I mean, it has turned out to be comically wrong (in both cases), but the player evaluation more so than then reasoning leading to wanting such a type of player. They wanted 2016 Daley, they got JMFJ.
That's still on JR, but it doesn't mean its the vision that is wrong or lacking.

I also think we have had occasions where there was young speed to utilize, but Sullivan simply chose not to, going with physical instead. Moreover, that there is a total disconnect between the D and F, that players look devoid of options and we were both an abomination in giving up odd man rushes and allowing short handed goals against this season - that goes to coaching (or the coach not getting through) much more so than it does the GM.

He deserves credit for shaping the Cup teams but he deserves a metric ton of blame for his poor evaluations and subsequent decision making afterward.

Everyone and their grandmother said Hunwick was a bad signing, even after the playoffs. Same with Jack Johnson, who is far from a good puck mover or skater.

Rutherford's evaluations have been miserable and he's operated like he has no clue how he wants to build this team. That should concern people far more than anything else.

 

[T1K]

Shero had a vision for how the Penguins should play. It was the wrong one, made worse by his refusal to move on from Bylsma, but it was still a coherent plan.

Rutherford has no vision. He took a team built on moving the puck and played with speed and promptly dismantled it. This Penguins team lacks an identity. Ignore everything they say about how they want to play and instead look at the parts. Is this current defense built to move the puck quickly, maintain possession, skate out of danger, and gain the offensive blue line? Is the bottom six built to do that? Are there smart, decisive players throughout the lineup? Are there agile, quick players throughout the lineup?

That is all on Rutherford. It's one thing to have a plan and for it to fail. It's another to be as haphazardly run as the current Penguins roster.

I agree with your sentiment about the current make up of the roster, maybe I missed the point of your post. I just thought it was disingenuous to mention all of his mistakes and not really acknowledge his successes here.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

I agree with your sentiment about the current make up of the roster, maybe I missed the point of your post. I just thought it was disingenuous to mention all of his mistakes and not really acknowledge his successes here.

I mentioned his mistakes because they're repeating a pattern. No one is perfect as a general manager or coach. But when the same issues crop up over and over again, it's a problem. Rutherford's biggest fault is he doesn't ever seem to have a plan. He just fires from the hip. I mean, the guy's nickname is "Trader Jim".

His lack of planning coupled with ownership issues tanked Carolina for years. If the Penguins aren't careful, his approach will do the same here.

 

[Riptide]

First thing this team should do on July 1st is sign Matt Duchene. Evolving Wild has him projected at 6 years @ $7M ($6,902,850.62 to be exact). Whether we need to run a super line of Duchene-Crosby-Guentzel (ala the Bruins' Marchand-Bergeron-Pastrnak), or put him with Geno & Kessel and move McCann up, or have him as a 3C, that's going to give opponents nightmarish matchups no matter how they're configured.

The odds of him getting less than 8m is slim to none - and it wouldn't surprise me if it was higher.

 

[T1K]

The odds of him getting less than 8m is slim to none - and it wouldn't surprise me if it was higher.

I feel like Duchene could get 9 to 9.5. Player salaries have really exploded recently. Tavares could have gotten way more if he didn’t want to be the hometown hero.

Edit: actually, looking at salaries, I take that back. Probably closer to 9, when far superior players such as Drai are making less that kind of level sets the market for Duchene.

 

[Riptide]

I mentioned his mistakes because they're repeating a pattern. No one is perfect as a general manager or coach. But when the same issues crop up over and over again, it's a problem. Rutherford's biggest fault is he doesn't ever seem to have a plan. He just fires from the hip. I mean, the guy's nickname is "Trader Jim".

His lack of planning coupled with ownership issues tanked Carolina for years. If the Penguins aren't careful, his approach will do the same here.

There's MASSIVE differences between Carolina 10 years ago and Pittsburgh in many different aspects.

 

[Riptide]

I feel like Duchene could get 9 to 9.5. Player salaries have really exploded recently. Tavares could have gotten way more if he didn’t want to be the hometown hero.

Edit: actually, looking at salaries, I take that back. Probably closer to 9, when far superior players such as Drai are making less that kind of level sets the market for Duchene.

I think somewhere in the 8.5m-9.5m range is extremely likely for him. Someone who wants a #1c will pay big time for him. And I don't think Drai's cap will be the limit for him... it'll just be a matter of how desperate someone is for a 1c.

 

[SEALBound]

Only part of Malkin's play this season was due to ****ty linemates. To think otherwise is just burying your head in the sand and hoping the issue goes away...

Agreed, though he did play with Kessel, Hornqvist, Rust, ZAR, Hagelin, Pearson...not like this was Kunitz-Dupuis or Kobasew-Kennedy, ya know?

Assuming the story about his comments during tapes is true, there are clearly some sort of attitude issues going on that do not work. Some of that is on Sullivan but A LOT is on Geno. You can't keep cycling through coaches to appease the attitude of a single player. We did that with Jagr and it didn't work out too well.

Geno looked inconsistent and uninterested all friggin year. Bad season...yes. Why though? Couldn't find the chemistry with linemates? Holding the stick a little tight? Not in shape? All plausible. Poutty about systems? Mad because you have to come back into the defensive zone and put the work in? That's unacceptable Malkin or no Malkin.

I don't think something like this happens over night and it being the fault of one side. I'm sure Malkin and Sullivan/Assistants all have equal parts in it. You have to build around your stars but your stars need to be coachable. That's how teams come together and that's how teams win. I'd send Malkin down the road tomorrow if I thought it would get us another cup before the rebuild starts. I care about winning. Legacies are great and all but its all about winning for me...and you're talking to one of the biggest Jagr fans on the site.

Some of you here are acting like Malkin did nothing wrong the entire season and the whole reason he struggled is because JR signed Jack Johnson.

All of this Malkin has originated from one source: Jim Rutherford.

The same Jim Rutherford who made hiring Mike Johnston, a meek and professorial junior coach with no NHL experience, his first major move. The same one who has mixed quality trades for the likes of Patric Hornqvist, Phil Kessel, Nick Bonino, Justin Schultz, and Jared McCann with bizarre deals to acquire Daniel Winnik, Riley Sheahan, Ryan Reaves, and Tanner Pearson.

The same Rutherford who has been obsessed with employing enforcers, from Daniel Carcillo and Steve Downie to Tom Sestito and Reaves. The same Rutherford who looked at Matt Hunwick, Jack Johnson, and Antii Niemi and somehow saw them as quality players.

None of this is new. Rutherford made a series of questionable moves in Carolina and took a team that won a Stanley Cup after the lockout and then reached the conference finals in 2009 and ensured they missed the playoffs for six straight years under his watch.

This is a shitty post. One of the worst of this off-season thus far and that's really saying something.

 

[Ugene Magic]

I mentioned his mistakes because they're repeating a pattern. No one is perfect as a general manager or coach. But when the same issues crop up over and over again, it's a problem. Rutherford's biggest fault is he doesn't ever seem to have a plan. He just fires from the hip. I mean, the guy's nickname is "Trader Jim".

His lack of planning coupled with ownership issues tanked Carolina for years. If the Penguins aren't careful, his approach will do the same here.

Carolina's issues were their owners wouldn't spend. How do you do your job with your hands tied every other year?

 

[T1K]

Just seeing this tweet now. Has it been discussed on here? Doesn’t sound like a guy who is willing to waive that NMC