Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building: Malkin Avengers - EndGame

[Ugene Magic]

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From last thread:Salary Cap: - Salary cap+roster building: To Malkin or not to Malkin?

In Marner's case, Toronto is in a really tough spot, man. It's not as simple as just simply matching an $11 million a year offer. They're going to have to part with significant assets, namely Marleau and his bad contract, in order to match. Marleau's got a NMC too, so good luck moving a $6.25 million dollar, 40 year old guy when he controls all the cards and apparently adores the team/city. Marleau legitimately loves Toronto, the city and the team, particularly the young guys. I think it's going to be exceptionally difficult for Toronto to move the guy in an effort to clear some cap to get Marner on board.

Point in Tampa is another seriously difficult situation for that team. They have Point and his impending huge raise to deal with, a huge portion of their blueline to re-sign--including Stralman, who is not going to come cheap at all, and a colossal Vasi deal waiting in the wings.

Don't give JR any ideas.

Imagine this roster minus Geno, Phil and Tanger. That's what it could look like if JR decides to "cut out the malcontents".

I agree with the people who say we'll likely lose in a trade but it isn't in a vacuum. Say we trade Geno, Phil, Maatta, JJ. We get young up and coming guys on good cap hits and prospects. At the same time we use the cap space to sign Duchesne and Karlsson. We're then free to keep Schultz or move him depending on circumstances.

I'm not saying this exactly would happen. It would be tough to swing. I'm just saying this doesn't have to be the end.

Just an example. This should be at least close cap wise and not only do you have the current stable of prospects pushing Simon and ZAR but you have anyone picked up in the series of trades. At least one of those X's would have to be a young talented scoring winger though. Maybe a slight initial fall off but you fix the D and when the new young guys start to contribute, look out.

Jake - Sid - Rust
McCann -Duchesne- X
X - Bjugstad - Horny
Simon - Blueger - ZAR

Dumo - Letang
Petts - Karlsson
Riikola/X - Schultz/Gudbranson

I don't think we see all this stuff if Geno didn't make it absolutely clear he either A. wants colossal changes to some combination of roster/GM/coach, or B. he flat out wants to be dealt so he can chase another Cup before his NHL career is over.

FLA isn’t trading for Malkin...they’re looking to get Panarin and Bob, and they’re not going to have the money to sign Geno...they’re not a cap team...I really don’t see anyone who’d be interested in Geno unless they’re in a Cup window now and for the next couple years...forget our division and I don’t see any contending team in the Atlantic having space or interest in him (Boston has old centers in Bergeron and Krejci)....Winnipeg has cap issues and G won’t go there; Nashville, maybe but they have to dump cap space like Turris and Subban, Blues don’t need a top two center, Dallas maybe...Vegas, no, Sharks don’t need a top two center with Joe leaving even and they won’t have the space, Calgary, doubtful and he likely won’t go there...Colorado, maybe but picking up older players like that with term on the contract isn’t really their MO...

So at best, maybe two teams out West have an interest...I don’t think the Pens are going to get much but maybe dumping him is not for the return but for the culture shift and cap space...either way, I hope not

Well, in JR's mind, it's far easier to trade anyone who questions the direction of the organization than it is to take a good, hard look at his body of work over the last 20 months.

The Panthers owner is a billionaire. A Malkin for Trotchek swap adds 4M. If they can do that AND get Panarin and Bob, they'll be a cap team.

They have enough cap space that they could move a guy like Kadri or even Nylander if they desperately need to make room for Marner. Kadri's probably gone anyway after two straight dumb suspensions in the playoffs.

It's not an ideal situation, but the Leafs can clear room to match an offer sheet for Marner. They'd have to do some retooling afterward, but they can do it in the moment.

I don't think it was that brutal, but yes, I'm sure he voiced concern about the direction of the organization and when he got pushback at least intoned that maybe it's best if everyone moves on,

Click to read more...

 

[Andy99]

 

[KIRK]

It had nothing to do with the owner being cheap. Florida wanted to shed cap and get expiring contracts to go hard after Panarin and Bob (said to be essentially a package deal) this summer. So much so that they even hired Coach Q, Panarin's boy, to coach the team.

I don't think for a second that Florida would kill to have Geno centering their second line, and I'm sure Geno would absolutely love to live in South Beach year-round. It's just a matter of whether or not they can make a deal for him work.

They get Geno and then sign Panarin, and that's one hard core top 6 for Q.

 

[66-30-33]

Traded at 50% retention just for a bag of pucks.

 

[KIRK]

"We're not champions anymore, we have to accept that" or something to that effect... Yeah, that should've been the first red flag.

Mentioning arrogance. The system. The lack of speed. Those were red flags too.

Heck, someone posted a few threads ago that Malkin answered some questions in Russian. He specifically said a big difference with 2016-2017 is how other teams have adapted. Same system. Lots of same players. Other teams have adapted. The unsaid part was 'and we haven't adjusted back'.

 

[Ugene Magic]

They get Geno and then sign Panarin, and that's one hard core top 6 for Q.

Yeah, they are 2 lines deep of top quality.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

In a vacuum, I absolutely agree. But there's way more to it than just JR wanting to trade Malkin. I'm absolutely 100% certain of it.

Even if JR wanted to move Geno, Mario would never allow it because it stands to significantly hurt ticket and jersey sales. Now, if Geno himself made it known he's either open to a deal, or flat out wants to be dealt to chase another Cup elsewhere before his career is over, that's an entirely different story, and I think that's far closer to the reality than many people are willing to admit.

I revile JR's past couple of years of work. I think he's a fraud, and I think he's driving this team into the dirt. That being said, he's not actively looking to dump Geno after a tough year without Geno himself making it abundantly clear he's seriously unhappy, to the tune of either demanding a trade or demanding wholesale, sweeping changes to the team's roster and approach to winning.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

They get Geno and then sign Panarin, and that's one hard core top 6 for Q.

Fun activity: What does our second line look like once Geno and Phil are traded?

 

[Turin]

If you deal Geno in-conference and only get a guy like Trocheck back with a pick, that’s not even worth it purely for sentimental reasons never mind actually aiming to contend.

 

[Andy99]

They get Geno and then sign Panarin, and that's one hard core top 6 for Q.

Geno for Trocheck + is an embarrassment imo...

Geno’s comments about what the team needs to do are spot on...I’d rather JR stop with the ego and the arrogance and pay it some credence, instead of copping out and trading him...make some changes to put a more mobile team around Sid and G...

 

[66-30-33]

Panarin-Malkin-Dadonov

The all Russian line. We all wondered what Malkin and Panarin could do together, we would then see.

 

[Andy99]

In a vacuum, I absolutely agree. But there's way more to it than just JR wanting to trade Malkin. I'm absolutely 100% certain of it.

Even if JR wanted to move Geno, Mario would never allow it because it stands to significantly hurt ticket and jersey sales. Now, if Geno himself made it known he's either open to a deal, or flat out wants to be dealt to chase another Cup elsewhere before his career is over, that's an entirely different story, and I think that's far closer to the reality than many people are willing to admit.

I revile JR's past couple of years of work. I think he's a fraud, and I think he's driving this team into the dirt. That being said, he's not actively looking to dump Geno after a tough year without Geno himself making it abundantly clear he's seriously unhappy, to the tune of either demanding a trade or demanding wholesale, sweeping changes to the team's roster and approach to winning.

And maybe they should listen to G if that’s the case...he’s put in a lot of blood sweat and tears here....

 

[KIRK]

In a vacuum, I absolutely agree. But there's way more to it than just JR wanting to trade Malkin. I'm absolutely 100% certain of it.

Even if JR wanted to move Geno, Mario would never allow it because it stands to significantly hurt ticket and jersey sales. Now, if Geno himself made it known he's either open to a deal, or flat out wants to be dealt to chase another Cup elsewhere before his career is over, that's an entirely different story, and I think that's far closer to the reality than many people are willing to admit.

I revile JR's past couple of years of work. I think he's a fraud, and I think he's driving this team into the dirt. That being said, he's not actively looking to dump Geno after a tough year without Geno himself making it abundantly clear he's seriously unhappy, to the tune of either demanding a trade or demanding wholesale, sweeping changes to the team's roster and approach to winning.

Yeah, I think this is JR selling to ownership that Malkin isn't happy with the direction of the team. Of course, I suspect the reason Malkin isn't happy and the reason JR is arguing Malkin isn't happy aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

[Turin]

Geno for Trocheck + is an embarrassment imo...

Geno’s comments about what the team needs to do are spot on...I’d rather JR stop with the ego and the arrogance and pay it some credence, instead of copping out and trading him...make some changes to put a more mobile team around Sid and G...

People wouldn’t give a damn about Trocheck if he wasn’t from Pittsburgh. He’s likely a 70 point player at his absolute peak. That’s what Geno is in an injury riddled down year.

 

[KIRK]

Panarin-Malkin-Dadonov

The all Russian line.

The all Russian (2nd) line.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Mentioning arrogance. The system. The lack of speed. Those were red flags too.

Heck, someone posted a few threads ago that Malkin answered some questions in Russian. He specifically said a big difference with 2016-2017 is how other teams have adapted. Same system. Lots of same players. Other teams have adapted. The unsaid part was 'and we haven't adjusted back'.

I still choose to die on the "Sully's got no choice" hill as far as adjustments go . This blueline is simply incapable of operating in today's NHL outside of Dumo, Letang and Petts (with a nod to Schultz, but he requires a substantial partner in order to function). Nobody's coaching their way to a better result, imo. Though I would be far more open to moving on from Sully if someone in the Babcock or Coach Q tier were available. Even Laviolette.

But yeah, Geno's undoubtedly (and justifiably) unhappy. None of this stuff is more than "Ah well, another Geno rumor" discussion in passing without serious neon signs pointing to Geno being frustrated and/or completely fed up.

 

[66-30-33]

The all Russian (2nd) line.

Well you can't have the all Russian line without the almost all Canadian (1st) line.

Almost Canada
Russia
Not Canada
CYKA BLYATT

Ekblad
who?
3rd?

Bob
somebackup

 

[Empoleon8771]

Using evolving-hockey's contract estimator, the Panthers can run with this lineup and be about $2 million below a $82.5 million cap, as long as they can move Luongo and Reimer without taking any salary back:

Huberdeau-Barkov-Dadonov
Panarin-Malkin-Vatrano
Brouwer-Borgstrom-Malgin
Hunt-Sheahan-Sceviour
Hawryluk

Yandle-Ekblad
Matheson-Pysyk
Weegar-Keeper
Brown

Bobrovsky-Montemeault

This may also be high, because some of the contract projections I was using seemed a little high from what I was looking at. This had Hawryluk at $1.1 million as a 4th liner with 12 points in 42 games last year, I'd peg him closer to $700k or $800k. Same with Weegar at $1.5 million and Brouwer at $1 million. If you start chipping $200k-$300k off of these projections, you're suddenly at $3-$4 million in cap space with having 1 open forward spot, and a higher cap can give them even more. I also have Panarin and Bobrovsky combining to make $19 million, I think that's probably higher than what they'll actually get. The question you should be asking is should Florida be doing this, not whether they could.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

I still choose to die on the "Sully's got no choice" hill as far as adjustments go . This blueline is simply incapable of operating in today's NHL outside of Dumo, Letang and Petts (with a nod to Schultz, but he requires a substantial partner in order to function). Nobody's coaching their way to a better result, imo. Though I would be far more open to moving on from Sully if someone in the Babcock or Coach Q tier were available. Even Laviolette.

But yeah, Geno's undoubtedly (and justifiably) unhappy. None of this stuff is more than "Ah well, another Geno rumor" discussion in passing without serious neon signs pointing to Geno being frustrated and/or completely fed up.

Is the Islanders' defense corps really that much better than the Penguins' at moving the puck? Or is it the fact they don't attempt 50 foot passes and instead Trotz has them making short passes or banking it off the boards and out to offset the lack of puck moving ability?

 

[KIRK]

If you deal Geno in-conference and only get a guy like Trocheck back with a pick, that’s not even worth it purely for sentimental reasons never mind actually aiming to contend.

No, but that and a 1st is about the value you'll get.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

And maybe they should listen to G if that’s the case...he’s put in a lot of blood sweat and tears here....

He's also 33, riddled with injuries year after year, and makes $9.5 million a year to be pretty terrible without the puck on his stick this season. You're operating from a standpoint of emotion and sentiment. Doing that gets you a situation where Shero signs Dupuis for too long, goes back to get a decrepit Scuderi, or brings Mark Eaton out of retirement. If you want to win, you can't keep guys around because you like 'em a lot. That's just not how it works.

Yeah, I think this is JR selling to ownership that Malkin isn't happy with the direction of the team. Of course, I suspect the reason Malkin isn't happy and the reason JR is arguing Malkin isn't happy aren't necessarily the same thing.

Malkin's right. This team's a big mess, and I'm entirely in agreement with him that it's not salvageable before Geno's time is up. I don't fault him for being unhappy or wanting out, this is a tough situation to spend the last years of a legendary NHL career in.

 

[KIRK]

Is the Islanders' defense corps really that much better than the Penguins' at moving the puck? Or is it the fact they don't attempt 50 foot passes and instead Trotz has them making short passes or banking it off the boards and out to offset the lack of puck moving ability?

The Canes defense certainly is that much better at it. The puck moves faster than forecheckers. Ironic that JR used that argument to talk about Bjugs and McCann playing fast without considering what it meant about that abomination of a defense he's constructed.

 

[KIRK]

He's also 33, riddled with injuries year after year, and makes $9.5 million a year to be pretty terrible without the puck on his stick this season. You're operating from a standpoint of emotion and sentiment. Doing that gets you a situation where Shero signs Dupuis for too long, goes back to get a decrepit Scuderi, or brings Mark Eaton out of retirement. If you want to win, you can't keep guys around because you like 'em a lot. That's just not how it works.


Malkin's right. This team's a big mess, and I'm entirely in agreement with him that it's not salvageable before Geno's time is up. I don't fault him for being unhappy or wanting out, this is a tough situation to spend the last years of a legendary NHL career in.

It's salvageable.

It's probably now salvageable with Malkin and THIS JR.

Probably this coach too, because I've heard it was a season behind the scenes of Sully basically playing 'Sid and Horny good' and then dumping on everyone else.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

The Canes defense certainly is that much better at it. The puck moves faster than forecheckers. Ironic that JR used that argument to talk about Bjugs and McCann playing fast without considering what it meant about that abomination of a defense he's constructed.

Right, the Canes are. But when you look at what Trotz has been able to do in New York, doesn't that put to rest the idea that "there's only so much a coach can do with a mediocre (on paper) defense"?

 

[Empoleon8771]

He's also 33, riddled with injuries year after year, and makes $9.5 million a year to be pretty terrible without the puck on his stick this season. You're operating from a standpoint of emotion and sentiment. Doing that gets you a situation where Shero signs Dupuis for too long, goes back to get a decrepit Scuderi, or brings Mark Eaton out of retirement. If you want to win, you can't keep guys around because you like 'em a lot. That's just not how it works.

I was about to use this exact phrase before even reading your post, this is 100% spot on. When it comes to trading guys like Malkin or Letang, you have to take the emotional responses out of it. Trading players like that is way too big of a deal to be at all emotional about. You can't get rid of him just because you're mad at him for playing his way, just like you can't blindly keep him just because of what he has done in the past. You need to do what's best for the organization going forward.

 

[Rakell67]

Fun activity: What does our second line look like once Geno and Phil are traded?

Duchene Crosby Guentzel
McCann Trochek Rust
Simon Bjugstad Hornqvist
Johnson Blueger Aston-Reese