Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | I like to do just like the rest, I like my sugar sweet

[Speaking Moistly]

Hornqvist's next deal is a really weird situation, man. On one hand, he's one of the best in the world at what he does (chaos around the net, goals in tight) and an absolute warrior who brings an energy that I really do think the team feeds off of. On the other hand, dollars and term are real significant factors. Nobody in the league takes close to the amount of abuse Hornqvist does on a shift-by-shift basis--uncalled abuse, too, so it's not something that's going to slow down or stop. His body is eventually going to wear down and he's not exactly the most skilled or quickest skater as is. Does he have a permanent spot alongside Sid, despite weird rumors of their clashes and evidence to support that in the way of Sully keeping them apart for lengths of time at important junctures? Can we afford to pay him the raise he's likely to command (probably around $6M or so, give or take $500k) for as many years as he'll be looking for (likely his final big deal, I'm sure he'll be asking for 5 or 6 years).

I love the dude. He's easily one of my favorite Penguins, but I'm not sure I just hand him a blank check.

Honestly, unless he wants something truly ridiculous just give it to him and deal with it later. His body will go when it goes but until then he’s too important to lose. He can play on L3, still spends a good amount of time with Crosby every season and is important to the PP. Never mind the whole crazy man heart and soul thing he brings.

I doubt they find another Hornqvist any time soon so they need to keep this one short of him wanting a cap f***ing amount. Odds are he'll be a force for the remaining window of being serious contenders.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I would do it at $5mil. Boy at 5.5-6mil...I get a little hesitant.

I don't think it's going to be salary with Horny, I think it's gonna be term. He'll want this to be his last contract and frankly I don't blame him

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I would do it at $5mil. Boy at 5.5-6mil...I get a little hesitant.

5.5m/yr is fine, I think that's the max I would go. 5.5m/yr for what Horny does is a bargain. Another GM would happily give him 6-6.5m.

 

[Shady Machine]

Well I kicked around the idea of Sheary+Cole for Kane in a sign and deal move. Kane's got more goals than Sheary's got points, and brings a lot more to the table to boot. I don't think that package gets it done for Kane, but I'd go pretty hard after that guy if he's as available as is being rumored. Sid waking up (which looks like it may be happening) would go a long way too. Same with Letang. Sheary's production this season hasn't exactly been off the charts--though I don't know if it's fair to judge him that harshly when essentially the entire team's been a huge disappointment.

I'm just not really sold on Sheary. His play away from the puck is miserable and I don't think his production out-weighs that, and I have been really disappointed in him come playoff time.

No way am I trading a signed Sheary and Cole for a UFA Kane that will seek at least 5.5MM on a long term extension, particularly when we have to sign Hornqvist and Rust.

If I'm going after Kane, it's with Cole + futures and it's likely for Kane as a rental.

 

[Shady Machine]

Horny is close to a must sign IMO. He and Sid are the embodiment of Penguins hockey.

I agree that term will be the likely sticking point. IMO 5.5MM for 5-6 years would be fine by me.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

No way am I trading a signed Sheary and Cole for a UFA Kane that will seek at least 5.5MM on a long term extension, particularly when we have to sign Hornqvist and Rust.

If I'm going after Kane, it's with Cole + futures and it's likely for Kane as a rental.

Very clearly stated it would be a sign-and-deal move, friend.

I don't think Rust's next deal is going to be a bunch of money either. He'll probably be somewhere around Sheary or less. Shouldn't be too hard to fit him into the roster cap-wise. Hornqvist's deal is going to be a much bigger issue, I think. I don't think it's really as simple as moving Hagelin to free up space, either. This team's got an issue of being stacked at RW but being tremendously weak (relatively) at LW, particularly when talking about defensively responsible players. We've basically got Rust and Hagelin, and nobody else to balance out the skill at RW. Sprong's going to be ready sooner than later. Kessel's not exactly a stellar player away from the puck. Hornqvist isn't horrendous defensively, but is strictly a RW and isn't exactly speedy. Kane's a LW, brings speed, muscle, youth, likely a chip on his shoulder, great offensive talent as well as responsible defensive play.

 

[Ogrezilla]

If that can be your 4th line, they are in business. In theory, you can pass on a 3rd line center if you get a 3rd line left wing upgrade and Sprong is ready.

If Jake and Phil can keep being effective with Sheahan (and eventually a better 3C hopefully) I wonder if Geno could revive the corpse of Hags if he just popped in to Rowney's spot.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Who is going to replace Sheary's production? Increasing offensive production is JR's goal in any acquisition anyway. Are you going to find someone that produces more than Sheary in a trade with Sheary going the other way?

This kind of reminds me of the Family Guy gag about choosing between a mystery box and a boat.

"I'd trade Sheary for a scorer who might end up producing like Sheary!"

 

[Andy99]

All I want is for JR to drop his bull**** about not signing players during the season (Which he has, numerous times) and sign Hornqvist. That's all I ****ing want. For now.

How do you know he hasn't tried despite his bs statement which we know to be untrue? I have no doubt Horny's agent is pushing him to July 1...no incentive to sign now

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Yeah, no real reason for Hornqvist's agent to push his client to sign before this season plays out. Particularly if Hornqvist and his main center don't exactly get along super well.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

If Jake and Phil can keep being effective with Sheahan (and eventually a better 3C hopefully) I wonder if Geno could revive the corpse of Hags if he just popped in to Rowney's spot.

Hagelin has had a ton of time with Geno to show any sort of improvement offensively, nothing happened. Hagelin is beyond the point of "Maybe put him with Crosby or Malkin!?"

 

[Ogrezilla]

I'm not really advocating that we rush out and sell Sheary to the first team interested, just to be clear. I just think he's less of an important piece than most, and think his value as an asset could end up proving more important than his place on the roster. Again, if we could package Sheary+Cole for a significant return, I'd be really interested. If we can get Kane, who Buffalo seems to be extremely keen on moving based on the reports that they're willing to retain a ton of salary, I think that's a dude that is just about perfect for this team. Young enough to be a part of the core, fast, good with and without the puck, adds muscle without simply being a plug, etc. I'm not sure that package interests Buffalo, and we'd absolutely have to get a sign-and-deal situation, but I'd take that every day of the week.

The problem I have with moving Sheary is that after 3C, LW is our next biggest weakness. If we move a Cole or a Sheary, I want to be filling a hole, but if we move them together then we still have all the same holes. I'm not saying there aren't deals out there where it could make sense, but it wouldn't be my plan A or B certainly.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hagelin has had a ton of time with Geno to show any sort of improvement offensively, nothing happened. Hagelin is beyond the point of "Maybe put him with Crosby or Malkin!?"

It's weird, because this is a whole different level of not producing than he's ever had before. Shit, two years ago he came here and put up 27 points in 37 games. I don't get what happened to even the 35 point guy he always was.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yeah, no real reason for Hornqvist's agent to push his client to sign before this season plays out. Particularly if Hornqvist and his main center don't exactly get along super well.

Hornqvist plays his game, his game is HIS game. He does what he always does and he's been effective with literally any C he's been with. You want someone to crash the net and wreak havoc there drawing attention, he'll do that and score garbage goals.

It's literally no worry of "who does he fit with?"

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's weird, because this is a whole different level of not producing than he's ever had before. ****, two years ago he came here and put up 27 points in 37 games. I don't get what happened to even the 30 point guy he always was.

He's also had a concussion last year and a leg injury, the concussion is likely the cause of whatever he's having. Hagelin even for a brief moment was with Crosby.

It's odd, because his instincts are there with his skating, defensive play, etc, but when it comes to shooting, he doesn't shoot as much anymore and his passing is even pretty choppy.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Hornqvist plays his game, his game is HIS game. He does what he always does and he's been effective with literally any C he's been with. You want someone to crash the net and wreak havoc there drawing attention, he'll do that and score garbage goals.

It's literally no worry of "who does he fit with?"

Hornqvist's game doesn't change, but he's infinitely more effective when with Sid. Just because he's capable of playing up and down the lineup doesn't mean that's where he's best played. And do you want to be paying $6M/yr for Hornqvist to play on the third line? This isn't a Kessel situation where he can be the driving force behind the line. Hornqvist, as you said, just does what he does regardless--and that's "go to the crease and annoy the shit out of people." If we're paying big bucks to a third liner, it's gotta be an offensively capable center or Kessel. I love Hornqvist, but paying him market value to play anywhere other than Sid's wing is a huge mistake imo.

 

[Ogrezilla]

He's also had a concussion last year and a leg injury, the concussion is likely the cause of whatever he's having. Hagelin even for a brief moment was with Crosby.

It's odd, because his instincts are there with his skating, defensive play, etc, but when it comes to shooting, he doesn't shoot as much anymore and his passing is even pretty choppy.

yeah it's just weird, because it's not like he's looking slow or lazy or anything. The dude looks like he should be getting shit done, but it just doesn't ever amount to anything.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Hornqvist's game doesn't change, but he's infinitely more effective when with Sid. Just because he's capable of playing up and down the lineup doesn't mean that's where he's best played. And do you want to be paying $6M/yr for Hornqvist to play on the third line? This isn't a Kessel situation where he can be the driving force behind the line. Hornqvist, as you said, just does what he does regardless--and that's "go to the crease and annoy the **** out of people." If we're paying big bucks to a third liner, it's gotta be an offensively capable center or Kessel. I love Hornqvist, but paying him market value to play anywhere other than Sid's wing is a huge mistake imo.

It's dicey at 6M, but in general I have no issue with him getting paid and playing on L3. He doesn't carry a line, sure. But he can make a dirty grinding line more effective than it has any right to be. He's just really damn good. My only issue with him on the 3rd line in your scenario is pure ice time. But as long as you can get him on the ice enough, I honestly don't give a shit who he is playing with. Pay that man his money.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Actually i'm wrong.

In his first 37 games when he was acquired, he was shooting at a 2.5 shots per game pace, then last year he dipped to just around 2 shots per game and this year he's back up to 2.25 shots per game.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's dicey at 6M, but in general I have no issue with him getting paid and playing on L3. He doesn't carry a line, sure. But he can make a dirty grinding line more effective than it has any right to be. He's just really damn good. My only issue with him on the 3rd line in your scenario is pure ice time. But as long as you can get him on the ice enough, I honestly don't give a **** who he is playing with. Pay that man his money.

On the 3rd line he's likely going to get 15-18mins and then powerplay time. For a guy like Horny, is that even a bad thing for his energy and effectiveness?

 

[Empoleon8771]

With the cap being rumored to spike up after this year, I'd be much more willing to give Hornqvist a long term deal. The cap rising $5 million from this season into next season would dramatically help the Penguins keep Hornqvist long term, even if the cap goes back to a much more conservative rate of increase.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

It's dicey at 6M, but in general I have no issue with him getting paid and playing on L3. He doesn't carry a line, sure. But he can make a dirty grinding line more effective than it has any right to be. He's just really damn good. My only issue with him on the 3rd line in your scenario is pure ice time.

For the record; I'm not trying to downplay Hornqvist's skillset or impact, I'm just saying that I'm not sure you are doing things correctly spending a big chunk of dollars on a guy that's not going to be the driving force of his line. He's not bad, or even a real issue on the third line, but I don't think we currently have the depth for that. Particularly with Sid struggling through the first 30 games of the season as badly as he has. Hornqvist on the third just seems like feigning depth for the sake of it. With Kessel, he's going to be creating for himself, driving guys back with his speed, creating space for his linemates, etc. That's creating scoring depth by increasing the threat of an offensively capable third line.

With Hornqvist, he's going to dump and chase, and find his way to the net to cause havoc and cleanup garbage. If the other guys on that line aren't more offensively capable in terms of skating and creating, I'm not sure Hornqvist has nearly as big an impact as he would on Sid's wing. Again, not that Hornqvist would be bad on the third line, but dollars-to-role I don't think that's our best course of action.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

yeah it's just weird, because it's not like he's looking slow or lazy or anything. The dude looks like he should be getting **** done, but it just doesn't ever amount to anything.

I will never say Hagelin isn't working hard or trying.

1. His speed is there.
2. He's still a forechecking demon.
3. He's still solid on the PK.
4. He's still shooting, which is encouraging.
5. He's not a terrible player overall, being solid defensively is at least something we need.

So really, I think he's a guy that just needs to be sat the way Cole was, but in Cole's case, who really knows the real issue there, but for Hagelin he needs a fire lit under his ass and some time practicing and shooting would not be a bad thing for him, the guy needs to be out of the line-up for a bit to be held accountable for not producing, you know, accountability, something Sullivan used to hold his players to.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Actually i'm wrong.

In his first 37 games when he was acquired, he was shooting at a 2.5 shots per game pace, then last year he dipped to just around 2 shots per game and this year he's back up to 2.25 shots per game.

His shooting percentage last season was awful but he still produced around a 30 point level (full season). Not sure of that stat this season but I assume it’s pretty awful. He’s not even really getting the assists anymore. Hopefully that gets better as the teams ES scoring improves. He does the other stuff really well which we need.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

His shooting percentage last season was awful but he still produced around a 30 point level (full season). Not sure of that stat this season but I assume it’s pretty awful. He’s not even really getting the assists anymore. Hopefully that gets better as the teams ES scoring improves. He does the other stuff really well which we need.

He's gun shy, his shots are either really outside perimeter or they're just flubs into the pads and then his passing, he holds the puck because he doesn't seem like he's capable of getting a pass through.

I really think he's a guy you it for a few games, 3-4 games, play Archie/McKegg/or whomever for that time to give Hagelin some time to earn his way back because that is realistically where he should be right now. Fighting back into the line-up.