Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Everybody's Up In Trees, Feeding Pigeons Out On A Limb

[WheresRamziAbid]

Here you guy making blind assumptions. Did I say he’s an authoritative source for the Pens? I just felt his opinion was more accurate that the local media severely overrating Cole. What team wouldn’t want a 2 time Stanley Cup dman?!?! Colorado, Vegas and Toronto are super interested!!!

Crickets

I’m glad Jimmy didn’t just trade him to trade him. But let’s not commend him for not giving away Cole.

So you believe the Denver writer who's information is undoubtedly biased from the Denver perspective because it fits you agenda?

Lets just keep it super simple. Ian Cole is considerably better than Ron Hainsey. Rom Hainsey got a 2nd. Cole isnt being traded for a 2nd.

 

[AvsCOL]

I'll start believing him when he has any sort of connections to the Penguins. Until then, nothing he says about other teams is of value. Nothing in his tweet makes any sense. Why are the Penguins trading him for draft picks? Why would teams be saying no to a 2nd round pick for Cole, when that's the standard cost for D like Cole at the deadline? Why would the Penguins trade him for "pennies on the dollar" rather than keeping him? None of this makes sense.

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying he's been correct a number of times.

Not sure why you're so hostile over me trying to tell you he's not always wrong, but stay classy.

 

[Empoleon8771]

How was I being hostile? I said nothing in the tweet makes any sense from a Penguins POV and there's no reason to believe he has contacts within the Penguins organization, so his word on what the Penguins are doing is completely worthless. He has no credibility in terms of Penguins rumors and what he tweeted makes absolutely no sense from the Penguins POV, so why should anyone do anything except dismiss it?

 

[Andy99]

The only way Cole would be moved for picks is if the team was totally out of it at the deadline and this team is too good even on their worst day for that to happen.

Well, I guess it's possible that if, say, BUF wanted a first for Kane at the deadline, JR could try to trade Cole for a pick and then turn around and give that one to BUF...unlikley but possible

 

[SEALBound]

So you believe the Denver writer who's information is undoubtedly biased from the Denver perspective because it fits you agenda?

Lets just keep it super simple. Ian Cole is considerably better than Ron Hainsey. Rom Hainsey got a 2nd. Cole isnt being traded for a 2nd.

And that's just it. Not sure how much stock I put into what he or Datar say just yet given what so many others have said. Now, it's plausible that when he was made available, one of two (or both) things happened:

1. His agent goes out and says "trade and sign, he wants $5milx5yr" and the GMs balk at that (as they should) and/or 2. GMs are interested and they ask JR the price tag and he says something like "1st rounder or your 2/3C young guy" and GMs balk at that".

So I mean, lots of initial interest would be consistent with what we've heard from Bobby Mac and our local reporters. After discussions, interest dies down which would be consistent with what we are hearing now.

Other thing is, it only takes one team to want him. If 10 teams inquired enthusiastically and then 9 lost interest...then yeah, trade talks really "died down" but that last team could still very much be in the hunt. Like selling a home...only need one buyer.

 

[AvsCOL]

Well no one is saying he's Bob McKenzie. Dismiss it if you'd like, I won't be offended. Avs have no use for him anyway.

 

[Shady Machine]

I'm not saying he's right or wrong, I'm saying he's been correct a number of times.

Not sure why you're so hostile over me trying to tell you he's not always wrong, but stay classy.

I'm not so sure that was a hostile response. I certainly appreciate you giving context to his reputation for reporting on the Avs. In this instance, his tweet doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless he's just acting as a mouthpiece for the Avs or some other interested team that wants Cole for pennies on the dollar.

 

[molon labe]

I'll start believing him when he has any sort of connections to the Penguins. Until then, nothing he says about other teams is of value. Nothing in his tweet makes any sense. Why are the Penguins trading him for draft picks? Why would teams be saying no to a 2nd round pick for Cole, when that's the standard cost for D like Cole at the deadline? Why would the Penguins trade him for "pennies on the dollar" rather than keeping him? None of this makes sense.

Yeah, the Cole for a 2nd is utterly the worst logic from a Pens article I've seen in a while - which is saying something.

Personally, if we're getting rid of our most stable defensemen of the last two runs - I'd rather add even more for a true 2C. Continue pressing our C depth and just let the rest of our crew get tested as to who actually plays 4C.

 

[SEALBound]

Yeah, the Cole for a 2nd is utterly the worst logic from a Pens article I've seen in a while - which is saying something.

Personally, if we're getting rid of our most stable defensemen of the last two runs - I'd rather add even more for a true 2C. Continue pressing our C depth and just let the rest of our crew get tested as to who actually plays 4C.

Cole out for a 2nd, in a vacuum - zero sense. Perhaps though a team is saying "we want 2 2nds for Player X". JR says, "Okay, let me trade Cole for a 2nd". That's about the only thing that makes sense.

We also talked about the "games" being played with the insiders on social media. Emp talked about Mac sending messages from JR to other GMs and vice versa. This could be Colorado's way of doing the same. Someone reported that Cole's agent and the Avs have a very good relationship so...maybe this is all part of the game from Colorado's POV.

 

[larueskee]

WHY HASN’T COLE BEEN TRADED?

Cole got scratched for three games and overreacted. His agent, Kevin Magnuson, mindful of Cole’s status as an unrestricted free agent at season’s end, asked for a trade. GM Jim Rutherford said go ahead, find a team that’s interested, then I’ll get involved.

Magnuson couldn’t find a team. Not one that wanted to negotiate a long-term extension and give the Penguins value in return, anyway.

Madden saying the exact same thing as Dreger about what happened with Cole

Magnuson has no authority to contact any teams until Rutherford and the Penguins have a deal in place to discuss. You are just plain wrong. When Cole is a free agent in July then he and his agent can go about contacting teams but in the real world the teams contact the agent. You are also way off in your attempt to dismiss the interest in Cole. Several teams have inquired about Cole so much so that Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. Those are the same GMs that might consider hiring him after he gets fired in the future. Ian Cole is looked upon as much more than a third pairing guy by many teams with better defensemen than the Pens. From what I have heard his player assessment warrants more money than Dumo and Maata. His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's. The teams interested in Cole will probably be teams on the cusp of the playoffs or a young team needing veteran leadership. One team or more may even offer Cole a leadership ( assistant captain ) role with the club. If it doesn't happen now it may because of all the fans in PA that love the guy. I can't think of any more valuable player for the Pens than Cole in Washington series. His play really stood out in that series.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Magnuson has no authority to contact any teams until Rutherford and the Penguins have a deal in place to discuss. You are just plain wrong. When Cole is a free agent in July then he and his agent can go about contacting teams but in the real world the teams contact the agent. You are also way off in your attempt to dismiss the interest in Cole. Several teams have inquired about Cole so much so that Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. Those are the same GMs that might consider hiring him after he gets fired in the future. Ian Cole is looked upon as much more than a third pairing guy by many teams with better defensemen than the Pens. From what I have heard his player assessment warrants more money than Dumo and Maata. His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's. The teams interested in Cole will probably be teams on the cusp of the playoffs or a young team needing veteran leadership. One team or more may even offer Cole a leadership ( assistant captain ) role with the club. If it doesn't happen now it may because of all the fans in PA that love the guy. I can't think of any more valuable player for the Pens than Cole in Washington series. His play really stood out in that series.

Penguins gave him permission.

 

[bigG]

this board overrates marginal players so much.

 

[ColePens]

this board overrates marginal players so much.

Feel like adding context? Or just a drive-by umbrella statement?

 

[SEALBound]

Magnuson has no authority to contact any teams until Rutherford and the Penguins have a deal in place to discuss. You are just plain wrong. When Cole is a free agent in July then he and his agent can go about contacting teams but in the real world the teams contact the agent. You are also way off in your attempt to dismiss the interest in Cole. Several teams have inquired about Cole so much so that Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. Those are the same GMs that might consider hiring him after he gets fired in the future. Ian Cole is looked upon as much more than a third pairing guy by many teams with better defensemen than the Pens. From what I have heard his player assessment warrants more money than Dumo and Maata. His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's. The teams interested in Cole will probably be teams on the cusp of the playoffs or a young team needing veteran leadership. One team or more may even offer Cole a leadership ( assistant captain ) role with the club. If it doesn't happen now it may because of all the fans in PA that love the guy. I can't think of any more valuable player for the Pens than Cole in Washington series. His play really stood out in that series.

Honestly, I do not find any sentences in your post that are true. As reported, Cole's agent was given permission to contact other teams about a trade and potential extension. So there goes line one.

I don't think Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. That's absurd. This isn't high school classrooms and facebook.

Fire who? Sullivan? There are two people competing for "most secure" in the organization outside of Mario Lemieux. It's Crosby and Sullivan. Again, what an odd and absurd thing to say.

Where are these "player assessments"? Dumo and Maatta were signed as young RFAs to longer contracts. Cole would be a late 20's UFA. On the open market, yeah he could probably find a team to give him $4.25-4.5mil. I don't think anyone doubts that but we will all have our own opinion of the validity of that contract if it comes to fruition. So...not even sure what to make of that statement.

"His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's." What? Please elaborate on this as I am totally lost.

So...a team looking to make the playoffs needs a tried and true vet like Cole. Shocking.

Fans have zero impact on roster management. Zero. Maybe even less than zero.

Cole was indeed valuable for us in both runs...there I will 100% agree with you on that. The other 99% of your post...

 

[bigG]

Feel like adding context? Or just a drive-by umbrella statement?

cole
despres
vitale
morrow
strait
engelland (for a while at least)
scuderi (before 2015-16)
harrington
letestu
tangradi
talbot
johnston
etc

 

[larueskee]

Penguins gave him permission.

They gave him permission to discuss a contract extension with a team but after a deal was on the table. That is how that works. The agent doesn't pick up the phone and call GMs around the league and start talking trades for the Pens. Rutherford goes to Cole's agent with a proposed team he would like to trade Cole to and Cole and his agent can attempt to negotiate a long term deal if Cole wants to. So in reality Cole is doing a favor to the Pens by doing this. Cole does not have to sign a deal he doesn't like but would if it was the right opportunity. All Cole wants is to be in the lineup and be rewarded for his outstanding play. What he has seen to this point is others less deserving of ice time getting it. Top 10 in the entire NHL in plus minus last year? It is crazy that he is stuck on the 3rd pairing getting the least amount of minutes. Especially when some of the d in front of him are so bad and they never get benched. 4th in blocked shots last year? My lord you gotta give that guy even more minutes not less with the suspect goaltending with Murray out. Jeez Murray probably would not be out injured if Cole was on the ice. The guy pratically went end to end with no Penguin touching him before he slid into Murray.

 

[ColePens]

cole
despres
vitale
morrow
strait
engelland (for a while at least)
scuderi (before 2015-16)
harrington
letestu
tangradi
talbot
johnston
etc

Once again... would you like to add context to your post? You think every single poster is valuing these guys at a high level? You think all of these guys were busts? Do you know which users valued which player?

Or better yet, if you don't like it, don't post. Simple as that. Easy peezy. Go check out the Pens facebook page or something.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

cole
despres
vitale
morrow
strait
engelland (for a while at least)
harrington
letestu
tangradi
talbot
johnston
etc

Well first of all 3 of these thing arent like the others. Cole, Letestu and Despres are/were both very solid NHl players.

Vitale and Talbot were just well liked, nobody thought they were great. Not to mention Talbot once scored 2 goals in game 7 of the f'ing Stanley cup.

Morrow, Strait, Harrington, Tangradi were all talented prospects that didnt pan out. I dont think anyone would look back on their NHL careers and "overrate" them. Maybe get cought up in their potential.

Did anyone overrate Engellend or Johnston?

 

[larueskee]

Honestly, I do not find any sentences in your post that are true. As reported, Cole's agent was given permission to contact other teams about a trade and potential extension. So there goes line one.

I don't think Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. That's absurd. This isn't high school classrooms and facebook.

Fire who? Sullivan? There are two people competing for "most secure" in the organization outside of Mario Lemieux. It's Crosby and Sullivan. Again, what an odd and absurd thing to say.

Where are these "player assessments"? Dumo and Maatta were signed as young RFAs to longer contracts. Cole would be a late 20's UFA. On the open market, yeah he could probably find a team to give him $4.25-4.5mil. I don't think anyone doubts that but we will all have our own opinion of the validity of that contract if it comes to fruition. So...not even sure what to make of that statement.

"His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's." What? Please elaborate on this as I am totally lost.

So...a team looking to make the playoffs needs a tried and true vet like Cole. Shocking.

Fans have zero impact on roster management. Zero. Maybe even less than zero.

Cole was indeed valuable for us in both runs...there I will 100% agree with you on that. The other 99% of your post...

Come on that is just stupid. Implying that Kevin Magnuson is going to call GMs and propose trades for them.

 

[ColePens]

They gave him permission to discuss a contract extension with a team but after a deal was on the table. That is how that works. The agent doesn't pick up the phone and call GMs around the league and start talking trades for the Pens. Rutherford goes to Cole's agent with a proposed team he would like to trade Cole to and Cole and his agent can attempt to negotiate a long term deal if Cole wants to. So in reality Cole is doing a favor to the Pens by doing this. Cole does not have to sign a deal he doesn't like but would if it was the right opportunity. All Cole wants is to be in the lineup and be rewarded for his outstanding play. What he has seen to this point is others less deserving of ice time getting it. Top 10 in the entire NHL in plus minus last year? It is crazy that he is stuck on the 3rd pairing getting the least amount of minutes. Especially when some of the d in front of him are so bad and they never get benched. 4th in blocked shots last year? My lord you gotta give that guy even more minutes not less with the suspect goaltending with Murray out. Jeez Murray probably would not be out injured if Cole was on the ice. The guy pratically went end to end with no Penguin touching him before he slid into Murray.

I'm not in the business, but I do have to question your post here. Do you 100% know that's how it works. There is a lot of gray area there. "If a deal is on the table" could mean anything. Okay Pens have interest in Player X. Now the agent is allowed to discuss?

I'm sure that rule is broken way more often than not. But if you have been in the business and know how it works, i'd defer. I have friends in the business, but that doesn't qualify my opinion because everything I hear is just through them. I have no specific 1 on 1 experience of doing these deals. If you are a former NHL player and/or agent and/or GM... i'll defer. My guess is with how "gray" that verbiage is, it can be bypassed with ease.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

GMGM has LD coming out of his ears for this year. He has defensemen period in abundance for this year. BUT, Cole can play the right side and Cole is in a different category than Sbisa, McNabb, Stoner, and Engo for reasons that SHOULD be evident.

Additionally, here's another point: Unless OEL becomes available at some point before the deadline OR some huge hockey trade happens, Ian Cole very well may be the best available defenseman teams are going to see before the deadline this season.

It is my understanding that Cole is in much greater demand than some here appreciate.

And, it is my understanding that JR is either going to leverage Cole into what he wants or he'll keep Cole on the thought that he may need him again and that it's worth more to keep him in terms of asset management than to take a paltry return only to have to potentially flip that later for a lesser rental defenseman.

Finally, it is my understanding that GMGM is one of the prime suitors, matching what Mackey wrote when he listed Vegas, Colorado, and Toronto as suitors.

Hope that clarifies. But, yes, it didn't make sense to me until I considered what their defense looks like AFTER this season and that they have a 3C in Lindberg playing RW because there aren't 4 top nine center spots.

Thanks for this, KIRK. I would love to add Oscar Lindberg. He fits what we need perfectly.

Honestly, I'd rather break them up. I mean if we can have a 3rd line that's scoring without Kessel on it, then great... but I think to truly take advantage of Kessel to the best extent possible, I think he needs to have his own line.

Kessel has played mainly with Malkin this season and he is having, arguably, his best season to date. So I don't see the need to break them up. It doesn't hurt Kessel, but it really hurts Malkin.

I got the info from someone on twitter but they're private, so I'll copy and paste.

Pens have talked to Montreal about both Galchenyuk, and Danault, nothing with Cole included, just interest

Edmonton is very interested, but not willing to deal RNH for Cole, possibly Strome, or Letestu

Toronto's interest is mild, not willing to deal Bozak unless its for Maatta, Pens not willing to do that. GMJR is interested in Kapanen, and have tried to reacquire him.

Colorado want Cole if a extension can be agreed on, Pens reportedly asked for Colin Wilson, Colorado not willing, trying to get GMJR to take Soderberg.

New Jersey want a extended Cole also. Pens want Lovejoy back. NJ offered both Lovejoy and a pick. Pens want a forward in the deal(They want a forward in return for Cole in any trade with any team).

Interesting information here. Thanks. I am curious whether the Pens are still pursuing Galchenyuk or whether that is old information. Not sure why Danault would be targeted, he is essentially Sheahan. Cole for RNH is a great deal; Cole for Strome+ is a decent deal; Cole for Letestu+ is a terrible deal.

I LOVE the idea of bringing Kapanen back. He needs a chance to play somewhere. He can play either wing. Adding more scoring wingers improves the center situation, too.

So you believe the Denver writer who's information is undoubtedly biased from the Denver perspective because it fits you agenda?

Lets just keep it super simple. Ian Cole is considerably better than Ron Hainsey. Rom Hainsey got a 2nd. Cole isnt being traded for a 2nd.

I gotta disagree with this. Cole is a solid No. 5 defenseman. Ron Hainsey is a top-four rearguard who proved he can play a major role on a Cup champion, and is playing even better with Toronto this season. That said, Hainsey is older and was a pending UFA, whereas Cole is in his prime and teams are talking extension with him so his value is higher. But he is not a better blueliner than Hainsey.

Well, I guess it's possible that if, say, BUF wanted a first for Kane at the deadline, JR could try to trade Cole for a pick and then turn around and give that one to BUF...unlikley but possible

I think too many of us look at trades and trade proposals in a vacuum. JR could easily deal Cole for futures, add more assets to his stables, and then make another move to help the club up front.

Trading Cole for futures does not mean we are out of it. It means JR is taking the best deal he can find and will then look to make a move with some of the excess futures he now has.

Having said that, I do believe Cole is worth more than a second rounder.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Come on that is just stupid. Implying that Kevin Magnuson is going to call GMs and propose trades for them.

Holy stupid, nobody is implying that. He has permission to go and find teams interested in Cole, to A. let them know he is available and B. check in to see contract asking price to let them decide if they are interested.

Its not that hard.

 

[66-30-33]

Cole is worth a 1st easily, just for his playoff performances alone. Guy is a warrior, will block shots with any part of his body. That's why teams trade for these types of players, for the playoffs. If we trade him for a 1st I hope it's for a package for someone good. 1st+Sprong for something really good, then our other 1st+?? for somebody. Hopefully it's not a 1st for Ben f***IN Lovejoy...

 

[SEALBound]

cole
despres
vitale
morrow
strait
engelland (for a while at least)
scuderi (before 2015-16)
harrington
letestu
tangradi
talbot
johnston
etc

I see...and which players on there did the Penguins or the fans here "over value"? Did you mean "over value"?

Cole has been a FANTASTIC pick up for us. Any "over valuing" he gets from fans or the org, is well deserved.

Despres was not overvalued, if anything under valued. Vitale? He was a 4C that we moved on from. Morrow? We traded him for B Morrow...as a rental. Strait? Run of the mill 7/8/9 dman that we moved on from. Engo was too expensive. Scuds was money for us in 2009 but should NEVER have been brought back. I can see "over value" there. Harrington was used to get Phil. We didn't over value. Letestu was an odd man out at the time. Couldn't afford Talbot and we moved on. Johnston? Was he ever valued by anyone?

Reread what you posted before. I don't think you meant to say what you did and then post that list.

They gave him permission to discuss a contract extension with a team but after a deal was on the table. That is how that works. The agent doesn't pick up the phone and call GMs around the league and start talking trades for the Pens. Rutherford goes to Cole's agent with a proposed team he would like to trade Cole to and Cole and his agent can attempt to negotiate a long term deal if Cole wants to. So in reality Cole is doing a favor to the Pens by doing this. Cole does not have to sign a deal he doesn't like but would if it was the right opportunity. All Cole wants is to be in the lineup and be rewarded for his outstanding play. What he has seen to this point is others less deserving of ice time getting it. Top 10 in the entire NHL in plus minus last year? It is crazy that he is stuck on the 3rd pairing getting the least amount of minutes. Especially when some of the d in front of him are so bad and they never get benched. 4th in blocked shots last year? My lord you gotta give that guy even more minutes not less with the suspect goaltending with Murray out. Jeez Murray probably would not be out injured if Cole was on the ice. The guy pratically went end to end with no Penguin touching him before he slid into Murray.

A deal does not have to be on the table to discuss extensions if the GM gives the agent permission to pursue that. Plenty of agents have gotten permission from GMs to search out potential teams that may be interested in trading for their client. What are you even arguing? It's like you are just saying words...

Come on that is just stupid. Implying that Kevin Magnuson is going to call GMs and propose trades for them.

Literally did not even come close to saying that. Keep trying.

 

[larueskee]

I'm not in the business, but I do have to question your post here. Do you 100% know that's how it works. There is a lot of gray area there. "If a deal is on the table" could mean anything. Okay Pens have interest in Player X. Now the agent is allowed to discuss?

I'm sure that rule is broken way more often than not. But if you have been in the business and know how it works, i'd defer. I have friends in the business, but that doesn't qualify my opinion because everything I hear is just through them. I have no specific 1 on 1 experience of doing these deals. If you are a former NHL player and/or agent and/or GM... i'll defer. My guess is with how "gray" that verbiage is, it can be bypassed with ease.

A agent is not going to make any calls to any GMs and propose a trade. The agent has no idea what the team would want in a trade and doesn't work for the Pens or say the Vancouver Canucks. So this is how a sign and trade would work for Ian Cole. Rutherford and the Pens ( they own Cole's contract ) find a " proposed deal contingent on Cole signing a extension " with say the Blue Jackets. At this stage the deal is taken to Cole's agent who discusses the deal with Cole and at this stage Cole can ask for more money or anything else. The Pens still have every right to trade Cole but without Cole agreeing to a extension the offering team might elect to cancel the deal. A team might not want to part with a pick, prospect, or active player for a short term rental.