Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Everybody's Up In Trees, Feeding Pigeons Out On A Limb

[Ryder71]

Haha I was equally excited as all of you.

How am I being miserable here by saying this tweet might not be inaccurate? The market for Cole obviously isn’t as strong as some in the media portrayed it to be.
So if the Pens do move Cole now, they likely wouldn’t receive anything better than a second round pick. Is that so unbelievable? Maybe Jimmy had another deal lined up where he was trading our 1st/2nd so he was just replenishing those picks. It’s really not that far off. Jimmy knows this team has a lot of roster to still make.

I just don’t see the point in attacking this tweet. You should be pissed at the local guys giving you false hope that Cole might actually snag us a good player.

Much like Cullen and trading with Vegas, we need to forget about this.

A cake walk back to back vs. Buffalo. Yea, please.

First off you didn't tell me what you did when we won our back to back cups. Saying you're ''excited'' is too general. I'd like specifics. And there's a reason why I am asking.

Beyond that my suspicion is that anything short of a threepeat would trigger more hysterics from you. Now it's your prerogative to be negative. I'm just a bit surprised by it. Maybe I shouldn't be, or maybe you're just stirring the pot.

But you're working awfully hard to be negative on a team that has enjoyed the highest of highs very recently. Also some of the greatest players this sport has ever seen. It defies logic. And as anyone who might know me, I try to govern my life by being logical and using common sense, arrive at a conclusion then make an informed decision.

In regards to you I'm about to render one. I just am curious to see your response.

 

[TimmyD]

I’m sure you’ve been saying this for 2 months though. Do you really want to just sit around waiting for them to fail? Listen, I though they’d be terrible and this is shocking. But this just isn’t a fluke anymore. They play in a very weak division. Things are going to have to get very bad very quickly there for them to start making these deals suggested.

This is the danger in failing to address your weaknesses in the offseason.

Do you understand what would have happened if JR tried to address the 3c weakness through free agency? We would be saddled with Hanzal and his whopping 3 points for almost $5 million. He was trying to land Duchene because that was the guy he zoned in on (like he did with Kessel) and he missed. He is now trying to make up for that miss, but I don't think you understand what would have happened had we made a signing to fill that hole.... Also who else should he have traded for at the time to fill it?

 

[Shady Machine]

I would like to find out though first before we dump him.

I would too, particularly because Kane is a UFA coming off a contract with a 5.25MM cap hit. He's likely to be a pure rental as we can't afford another 6MM winger unless we want to dump Hornqvist, which of course, would open up a hole on the RW that Sprong should fill.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

Excuse the temporary threadjacking, but is there a dedicated place on HF to talk about memorabilia? I thought there was on the old site but maybe I'm wrong. Can't seem to find one here. I just had a question about autographs.

 

[cheesedanish87]

WHY HASN’T COLE BEEN TRADED?

Cole got scratched for three games and overreacted. His agent, Kevin Magnuson, mindful of Cole’s status as an unrestricted free agent at season’s end, asked for a trade. GM Jim Rutherford said go ahead, find a team that’s interested, then I’ll get involved.

Magnuson couldn’t find a team. Not one that wanted to negotiate a long-term extension and give the Penguins value in return, anyway.

Madden saying the exact same thing as Dreger about what happened with Cole

 

[Shady Machine]

I just interpret the tweet as teams aren’t going to overpay for a bottom pairing dman. I think fans foolishly thought teams would be knocking down JR’s door in efforts to land Cole. The other tweets were as inaccurate, if not more, than this one. Those other tweets suggested there was going to be a bidding war.

Lesson reinforced - twitter and the internet suck and are totally unreliable.

Can we agree to not praise Jimmy for not trading Cole for a 3rd round pick? Please?

It’s time to move on from trading with Vegas and put the Cole trade rumors to bed.

First off, no one said that team's would be knocking down the door for Cole, but much worse Dmen without championship pedigree have been traded for more than a 2nd.

Cole has value around the league and a signed goal has legit value. Does that get you a good 3rd line center? Unlikely, but packaging Cole with something likely does. It's all about finding the right fit. I agree with you on the urgency to deliver that center, but you need to chill out a bit here.

 

[Shady Machine]

Do you understand what would have happened if JR tried to address the 3c weakness through free agency? We would be saddled with Hanzal and his whopping 3 points for almost $5 million. He was trying to land Duchene because that was the guy he zoned in on (like he did with Kessel) and he missed. He is now trying to make up for that miss, but I don't think you understand what would have happened had we made a signing to fill that hole.... Also who else should he have traded for at the time to fill it?

I agree with your post, but clearly free agency isn't the only way to fill a hole in the off season. I think we all knew that the trade route was the right way to go. It's fair to question whether there were any deals out there that JR could have made to bring in a quality center.

I'm encouraged that JR was in on Duchene, to what extent I'm not sure, and Sheahan was a solid get as a cheap (asset wise) stop gap. That said, I think the sense of urgency has dialed up and IMO he needs to bring in a 3C or scoring depth very soon. (this month).

 

[AvsCOL]

Calling Dater the Avs insider is extremely generous. He got fired for being a piece of **** and hasn't been credible since.

Call him what you want, but he has sources. He has broken quite a few stories since being fired, and currently works with BSN, who I believe were the first to confirm the Duchene deal.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Call him what you want, but he has sources. He has broken quite a few stories since being fired, and currently works with BSN, who I believe were the first to confirm the Duchene deal.

I'll start believing him when he has any sort of connections to the Penguins. Until then, nothing he says about other teams is of value. Nothing in his tweet makes any sense. Why are the Penguins trading him for draft picks? Why would teams be saying no to a 2nd round pick for Cole, when that's the standard cost for D like Cole at the deadline? Why would the Penguins trade him for "pennies on the dollar" rather than keeping him? None of this makes sense.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I would like to find out though first before we dump him.

Me too

 

[deakka]

He might be right about waiting until closer to the deadline. But why would pens trade Cole for picks?
And pennies on the dollar at that?

I bet they rather keep him for a playoff run if thats the case. Its not like he has a crippling contract and has to be traded for whatever crap we can get.

Only reason we trade him is if we get something we need in return.

 

[Pens x]

First off you didn't tell me what you did when we won our back to back cups. Saying you're ''excited'' is too general. I'd like specifics. And there's a reason why I am asking.

Beyond that my suspicion is that anything short of a threepeat would trigger more hysterics from you. Now it's your prerogative to be negative. I'm just a bit surprised by it. Maybe I shouldn't be, or maybe you're just stirring the pot.

But you're working awfully hard to be negative on a team that has enjoyed the highest of highs very recently. Also some of the greatest players this sport has ever seen. It defies logic. And as anyone who might know me, I try to govern my life by being logical and using common sense, arrive at a conclusion then make an informed decision.

In regards to you I'm about to render one. I just am curious to see your response.

What specifics do you want to know?

I was in Detroit to see them hoist the cup in 2009. I was also unfortunately at Mellon Arena when Detroit won it here.

I went to every single home playoff game, except 1 in 2016. I went to probably 6 home games last playoffs. I had a 10 month old at the time. I couldn’t swing the trip to San Jose because of work. I was in South Carolina last year when we clinched the cup, regrettably. I watched the game at Big Ben’s bar in Kiawah. It was a pre planned family trip so couldn’t get out of it.

I love the Pens and have since as far back as I remember. I’m 34 and a large part of my childhood was penguins related. My family was very good friends with Ulfie and his family so I have so many great memories of attending private practices and what not.

I love the Penguins and I get so worked up at times because I’m seeing dumb decisions made by coaches and gm’s that I haven’t seen since the disco and Bylsma days. Sully and JR have been awesome until this season.

I probably care too much about the Steelers and Penguins.

I just think we are our own greatest enemy right now. I think Jimmy needed to do more over the last 6 months. I see a team stubbornly playing 3-4 guys every game that have no business playing on THIS team and that annoys me. Shero and Bylsma pisses away years and I just don’t want that to happen again. People blindly defended them for years after their 1 cup.

Some of the JR defenders eerily remind me of the Shero defenders. You can’t force teams to make trades! You can’t force players to sign here! Drafting is hard! Who cares if we traded a draft pick, players taken in x round have a x percentage of making it in the league. X player was a low risk high reward signing!

Although I think this fan base understands the importance of draft picks and drafting well, finally.

 

[KIRK]

Im happy they kept Cole. I was pessimistic that he could command a legitimate 3C in a trade. I certainly wouldn’t trade a 3C straight up for Ian Cole. I would have been pissed if gramps traded Cole for some reclamation center.

But let’s not praise gramps for simply not making a bad trade. Jimmy’s knowledge of the game is amazing.

In one breath, you say 'let's not praise gramps for simply not making a bad trade'.

In another breathe, you criticize gramps for not signing Martin Hanzal for 4.75M per or doing something similarly stupid this summer.

I'd point out the hypocrisy involved here, but I'm afraid you'd give yourself a hernia if you thought too hard about it.

EDIT: Strike that, you already see Dater as an authoritative source on the Penguins. The mental hernia is permanent.

 

[Shady Machine]

Call him what you want, but he has sources. He has broken quite a few stories since being fired, and currently works with BSN, who I believe were the first to confirm the Duchene deal.

Sources that would know that JR will trade Cole for "pennies on the dollar at the deadline"? That's just nonsensical. If anything, his sources are using the media to downplay the other media information that says there is high interest in Cole.

 

[Pens x]

In one breath, you say 'let's not praise gramps for simply not making a bad trade'.

In another breathe, you criticize gramps for not signing Martin Hanzal for 4.75M per or doing something similarly stupid this summer.

I'd point out the hypocrisy involved here, but I'm afraid you'd give yourself a hernia if you thought too hard about it.

EDIT: Strike that, you already see Dater as an authoritative source on the Penguins. The mental hernia is permanent.

Here you guy making blind assumptions. Did I say he’s an authoritative source for the Pens? I just felt his opinion was more accurate that the local media severely overrating Cole. What team wouldn’t want a 2 time Stanley Cup dman?!?! Colorado, Vegas and Toronto are super interested!!!

Crickets

I’m glad Jimmy didn’t just trade him to trade him. But let’s not commend him for not giving away Cole.

 

[mpp9]

Cole will likely hold value to the right team, but I wouldn’t expect some bidding war.

 

[Shady Machine]

Cole will likely hold value to the right team, but I wouldn’t expect some bidding war.

For sure. If Cole was traded as a rental, he'd likely be at the top of the list of Dmen. If I had to guess, he'd garner upwards of a late 1st + 4th or 2 2nd's. Something like that.

However, the Pens obviously don't want to move him as a rental and they probably want to move him well before the deadline to bring in depth scoring or a 3C sooner.

So now you are hoping for a signed Cole to do more of a hockey trade. That removes most of the likely suitors, but it's possible you can find the right team with the right type of return.

 

[KIRK]

Here you guy making blind assumptions. Did I say he’s an authoritative source for the Pens? I just felt his opinion was more accurate that the local media severely overrating Cole. What team wouldn’t want a 2 time Stanley Cup dman?!?! Colorado, Vegas and Toronto are super interested!!!

Crickets

I’m glad Jimmy didn’t just trade him to trade him. But let’s not commend him for not giving away Cole.

But let's criticize him for not doing something similarly dumb this summer like giving Martin Hanzal 4.75M per, right skippy?

As I said, don't think too hard on that one that you give yourself a hernia . . . fortunately, you followed my medical advice so far.

 

[UnderratedBrooks44]

He might be right about waiting until closer to the deadline. But why would pens trade Cole for picks?
And pennies on the dollar at that?

I bet they rather keep him for a playoff run if thats the case. Its not like he has a crippling contract and has to be traded for whatever crap we can get.

Only reason we trade him is if we get something we need in return.

Plus look at our D depth. It's kind of atrocious. Trading Cole would be bold in my opinion, to put it mildly.

I guess the counter to that is finding cheap D at the deadline for draft picks, but I don't know if I'd count on the equivalent of another Hainsey/Streit combo making up for the loss. At least we know what Cole is, which I think is a good lower end defenseman on this team. Plus even if you go the route of the above, the depth still sucks.

I agree with your post, but clearly free agency isn't the only way to fill a hole in the off season. I think we all knew that the trade route was the right way to go. It's fair to question whether there were any deals out there that JR could have made to bring in a quality center.

I'm encouraged that JR was in on Duchene, to what extent I'm not sure, and Sheahan was a solid get as a cheap (asset wise) stop gap. That said, I think the sense of urgency has dialed up and IMO he needs to bring in a 3C or scoring depth very soon. (this month).

Possibly, but I personally don't agree. I don't see the impetus. I definitely see the need overall, but I don't think we don't need to be top 3 in the conference throughout the entire year to feel relatively safe and not force a deal if it's not the optimal time to do it.

WHY HASN’T COLE BEEN TRADED?

Cole got scratched for three games and overreacted. His agent, Kevin Magnuson, mindful of Cole’s status as an unrestricted free agent at season’s end, asked for a trade. GM Jim Rutherford said go ahead, find a team that’s interested, then I’ll get involved.

Magnuson couldn’t find a team. Not one that wanted to negotiate a long-term extension and give the Penguins value in return, anyway.

Madden saying the exact same thing as Dreger about what happened with Cole

Honest question: can agents even do that? I guess they can or else I'm guessing Madden wouldn't stick his neck out and say they can, but it just seems weird. If you were an agent you could ask around the entire league all the time if they're interested in your player and if a team he'd rather be with says yes, force a trade. Maybe I'm not thinking it through entirely.

 

[Clare2904]

Archie reassigned on conditioning assignment.

Something cooking in the JR pot?

 

[KIRK]

For sure. If Cole was traded as a rental, he'd likely be at the top of the list of Dmen. If I had to guess, he'd garner upwards of a late 1st + 4th or 2 2nd's. Something like that.

However, the Pens obviously don't want to move him as a rental and they probably want to move him well before the deadline to bring in depth scoring or a 3C sooner.

So now you are hoping for a signed Cole to do more of a hockey trade. That removes most of the likely suitors, but it's possible you can find the right team with the right type of return.

And the comparable value to that return is an impending UFA like Bozak.

This is something some people don't understand, although it's certainly obvious WHY they don't understand.

For example, it was my understanding that JR never stopped being interested in Duchene but that where Sakic's interest shifted was to pure futures. JR would happily have outbid anyone to get Duchene, but he didn't have the futures in total, he didn't have the defensive future as a big piece, and Sakic wasn't interested in the names that typically were bandied about. It wasn't that JR wouldn't offer value for Duchene. It's that the parts that made up the value JR had and was willing to offer wasn't the type of parts Sakic wanted. @ColePens can confirm this story, since I relayed it to him privately BEFORE the Duchene trade.

There's value to be had for Cole now. JR doesn't wants futures, and the teams most interested in Cole would rather gives the value in the form of futures than in the form of a guy like Bozak.

It's not an overly difficult thing to comprehend, but apparently it's not as simple as one would think either.

 

[KIRK]

Archie reassigned on conditioning assignment.

Something cooking in the JR pot?

Yeah, it's called not wanting to keep up 14 healthy forwards with Evgeni Malkin returning to the lineup, I'd guess.

 

[SEALBound]

Do you understand what would have happened if JR tried to address the 3c weakness through free agency? We would be saddled with Hanzal and his whopping 3 points for almost $5 million. He was trying to land Duchene because that was the guy he zoned in on (like he did with Kessel) and he missed. He is now trying to make up for that miss, but I don't think you understand what would have happened had we made a signing to fill that hole.... Also who else should he have traded for at the time to fill it?

This where I go nuts with people. The simple answer was "Well Karlsson of course! Look at him now! Damn JR!" but honestly, we have zero idea who was even available at that point in time. With the expansion draft, entry draft, and free agency, this summer was a shit show. We can have our ideas of who we ideally want here but that doesn't mean those players are available. Look how long it took Sheahan to become "available". The one wrench in our system was Cullen. We obviously wanted him back but at this point in his career and after what he provided the Penguins, he earned the time to think about it. Didn't go the way we wanted but that's the game.

We rarely hear about who we didn't get. Who knows, maybe JR tried for Karlsson in July and GMGM said "Guentzel+1st or bust" and JR laughed and walked.

WHY HASN’T COLE BEEN TRADED?

Cole got scratched for three games and overreacted. His agent, Kevin Magnuson, mindful of Cole’s status as an unrestricted free agent at season’s end, asked for a trade. GM Jim Rutherford said go ahead, find a team that’s interested, then I’ll get involved.

Magnuson couldn’t find a team. Not one that wanted to negotiate a long-term extension and give the Penguins value in return, anyway.

Madden saying the exact same thing as Dreger about what happened with Cole

Dreger or Datar? This is consistent with what Datar said but inconsistent with everything else that was reported by other insiders/reporters. Not sure where I fall right now. Could come down to price JR is asking.

Good part, if you don't trade Cole, you have Cole on your roster. If you trade Cole, you get a good player that fills a gap back. Win-win for us and we lose nothing by hanging on.

He might be right about waiting until closer to the deadline. But why would pens trade Cole for picks?
And pennies on the dollar at that?

I bet they rather keep him for a playoff run if thats the case. Its not like he has a crippling contract and has to be traded for whatever crap we can get.

Only reason we trade him is if we get something we need in return.

JR won't trade him for picks unless there is another trade already completed that needs those picks. Cole out, picks in does nothing for us. I would rather see Cole play in the playoffs and walk in July that get the meager picks back.

 

[Pancakes]

The only way Cole would be moved for picks is if the team was totally out of it at the deadline and this team is too good even on their worst day for that to happen.

 

[KIRK]

The only way Cole would be moved for picks is if the team was totally out of it at the deadline and this team is too good even on their worst day for that to happen.

For sure, even a 1st and a 4th, which would be VALUE equivalent to a UFA like Bozak (if not a little more). So, teams are interested, Cole has the value that JR wants, but the form of said value (value in the form of a UFA like Bozak rather than the picks) is why JR can't, shouldn't, and won't do it . . . I mean, he'll likely have to turn right around and give most if not all of it up and the deadline for a defenseman to shore things up anyway, so there's no point to that, when you know what you've got and a trade wouldn't address the 3C issue directly at this time.