Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building | Everybody's Up In Trees, Feeding Pigeons Out On A Limb

[TimmyD]

Honestly, I do not find any sentences in your post that are true. As reported, Cole's agent was given permission to contact other teams about a trade and potential extension. So there goes line one.

I don't think Sullivan is embarrassed about benching him. That's absurd. This isn't high school classrooms and facebook.

Fire who? Sullivan? There are two people competing for "most secure" in the organization outside of Mario Lemieux. It's Crosby and Sullivan. Again, what an odd and absurd thing to say.

Where are these "player assessments"? Dumo and Maatta were signed as young RFAs to longer contracts. Cole would be a late 20's UFA. On the open market, yeah he could probably find a team to give him $4.25-4.5mil. I don't think anyone doubts that but we will all have our own opinion of the validity of that contract if it comes to fruition. So...not even sure what to make of that statement.

"His player valuation ( based on salary ) exceeds Kris Letang's." What? Please elaborate on this as I am totally lost.

So...a team looking to make the playoffs needs a tried and true vet like Cole. Shocking.

Fans have zero impact on roster management. Zero. Maybe even less than zero.

Cole was indeed valuable for us in both runs...there I will 100% agree with you on that. The other 99% of your post...

I feel like he thinks you were making up your own assessment as to why Cole has not been traded yet. I think you were posting and quoting an article from Madden though correct?

 

[ColePens]

A agent is not going to make any calls to any GMs and propose a trade. The agent has no idea what the team would want in a trade and doesn't work for the Pens or say the Vancouver Canucks. So this is how a sign and trade would work for Ian Cole. Rutherford and the Pens ( they own Cole's contract ) find a " proposed deal contingent on Cole signing a extension " with say the Blue Jackets. At this stage the deal is taken to Cole's agent who discusses the deal with Cole and at this stage Cole can ask for more money or anything else. The Pens still have every right to trade Cole but without Cole agreeing to a extension the offering team might elect to cancel the deal. A team might not want to part with a pick, prospect, or active player for a short term rental.

Nobody said the agent is going to call and propose trades. But an agent can basically get a feel for a re-signing number and then go back to JR and get more value from that team.

You don't see the incentive for the agent to contact teams to possibly get a 4x4m contract for his guy? You don't think an agent wants a nice little bit of a 16m contract? Commmmmme onnnnn. He's one blocked shot away from ending his career. This man needs paid asap. The agent's responsibility is to get that done. I would imagine he's more than happy contacting other teams for his guy.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

A agent is not going to make any calls to any GMs and propose a trade. The agent has no idea what the team would want in a trade and doesn't work for the Pens or say the Vancouver Canucks. So this is how a sign and trade would work for Ian Cole. Rutherford and the Pens ( they own Cole's contract ) find a " proposed deal contingent on Cole signing a extension " with say the Blue Jackets. At this stage the deal is taken to Cole's agent who discusses the deal with Cole and at this stage Cole can ask for more money or anything else. The Pens still have every right to trade Cole but without Cole agreeing to a extension the offering team might elect to cancel the deal. A team might not want to part with a pick, prospect, or active player for a short term rental.

Or, Cole is unhappy Rutherford allow agent to contact teams.

Agent goes to say for example Col. Hey, my client is unhappy, hes available for trade, he is will be looking for an extension ball park of ___. You interested?

Then lets team figure it out if so.

NOT
THAT
HARD

 

[larueskee]

I see...and which players on there did the Penguins or the fans here "over value"? Did you mean "over value"?

Cole has been a FANTASTIC pick up for us. Any "over valuing" he gets from fans or the org, is well deserved.

Despres was not overvalued, if anything under valued. Vitale? He was a 4C that we moved on from. Morrow? We traded him for B Morrow...as a rental. Strait? Run of the mill 7/8/9 dman that we moved on from. Engo was too expensive. Scuds was money for us in 2009 but should NEVER have been brought back. I can see "over value" there. Harrington was used to get Phil. We didn't over value. Letestu was an odd man out at the time. Couldn't afford Talbot and we moved on. Johnston? Was he ever valued by anyone?

Reread what you posted before. I don't think you meant to say what you did and then post that list.



A deal does not have to be on the table to discuss extensions if the GM gives the agent permission to pursue that. Plenty of agents have gotten permission from GMs to search out potential teams that may be interested in trading for their client. What are you even arguing? It's like you are just saying words...



Literally did not even come close to saying that. Keep trying.

That is what you meant isn't it? It is not up to Cole or his agent to propose trades or seek out trades. Permission to negotiate a extension is only a consideration after two teams have a deal in place. Come on its not that hard to understand. Pens find the deal and Cole then can try and negotiate a contract. If no contract the other team can pull out of the deal.

 

[Riptide]

Come on that is just stupid. Implying that Kevin Magnuson is going to call GMs and propose trades for them.

No, he's not "going to propose trades", he's going to see if there's interest in signing Cole (and whether Cole is interested in them), and see if he can work out a potential contract. If he can, then he relays that to JR, and JR see's about working out a trade.

This shouldn't be that hard to grasp, nor is it some new or recent development...

That is what you meant isn't it? It is not up to Cole or his agent to propose trades or seek out trades. Permission to negotiate a extension is only a consideration after two teams have a deal in place. Come on its not that hard to understand. Pens find the deal and Cole then can try and negotiate a contract. If no contract the other team can pull out of the deal.

You'd think... yet here we are...

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

That is what you meant isn't it? It is not up to Cole or his agent to propose trades or seek out trades. Permission to negotiate a extension is only a consideration after two teams have a deal in place. Come on its not that hard to understand. Pens find the deal and Cole then can try and negotiate a contract. If no contract the other team can pull out of the deal.

THE PENGUINS GAVE COLES AGENT PERMISSION TO FIND INTERESTED TEAM!

/end

 

[larueskee]

Or, Cole is unhappy Rutherford allow agent to contact teams.

Agent goes to say for example Col. Hey, my client is unhappy, hes available for trade, he is will be looking for an extension ball park of ___. You interested?

Then lets team figure it out if so.

NOT
THAT
HARD

Why would Cole or his agent want to spend time now on looking for a contract when he has a contract and will be a free agent in July? Permission is to talk with teams that the Pens want to trade him for something back. My lord the Pens would get nothing in return for Cole when its been stated that the team would like to get supplemental scoring for him. You are implying that his agent work the phones like he is a free agent and then call Rutherford and and say " I found a team for Cole who do you want from them ?' That just is never going to happen nor have I ever heard of it happening.

 

[ColePens]

Why would Cole or his agent want to spend time now on looking for a contract when he has a contract and will be a free agent in July? Permission is to talk with teams that the Pens want to trade him for something back. My lord the Pens would get nothing in return for Cole when its been stated that the team would like to get supplemental scoring for him. You are implying that his agent work the phones like he is a free agent and then call Rutherford and and say " I found a team for Cole who do you want from them ?' That just is never going to happen nor have I ever heard of it happening.

I think you are digging yourself a huge hole without thinking this one out.

IF Cole isn't playing, THEN his value does what?

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Why would Cole or his agent want to spend time now on looking for a contract when he has a contract and will be a free agent in July? Permission is to talk with teams that the Pens want to trade him for something back. My lord the Pens would get nothing in return for Cole when its been stated that the team would like to get supplemental scoring for him. You are implying that his agent work the phones like he is a free agent and then call Rutherford and and say " I found a team for Cole who do you want from them ?' That just is never going to happen nor have I ever heard of it happening.

Jesus f'ing chrsit

It all started because COLE WASNT HAPPY. SO it behooves him and his agent to try and find a better situation. Which would including striking a long term deal IF THE OTHER SIDE IS WILLING TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY WANT.

 

[larueskee]

THE PENGUINS GAVE COLES AGENT PERMISSION TO FIND INTERESTED TEAM!

/end

Once again they gave him permission to negotiate a extension ( which he does not have to do and without permission breaks NHL labor rules ) on any potential deal with any potential team. They did not hire the agent to go about calling teams and making trades. If Cole reaches free agency his agent might contact teams but in reality his phone is going to be ringing on its own. Interest in Cole has shot up over the last two seasons. The Pens and Sully decided to commit to other d men this is their problem and they need to figure it out if they think they can get something for Cole.

 

[Riptide]

Why would Cole or his agent want to spend time now on looking for a contract when he has a contract and will be a free agent in July? Permission is to talk with teams that the Pens want to trade him for something back. My lord the Pens would get nothing in return for Cole when its been stated that the team would like to get supplemental scoring for him. You are implying that his agent work the phones like he is a free agent and then call Rutherford and and say " I found a team for Cole who do you want from them ?' That just is never going to happen nor have I ever heard of it happening.

OMG... this is almost as bad as responding to Pensx. If you have never heard of this happening before, then you're really not paying attention - because it's happened many times. It's still semi rare in the sense that out of the all the trades that happen, this only happens in a small fraction of the deals, but it still happens enough that you having never heard of it is rather surprising. You defending this stance is even more surprising - especially given your admitted lack of knowledge on the subject.

Do you really not have a clue why Cole and his agent would rather sign a deal today then in 7 months? A lot can change in 7 months. Look at Wisniewski, and how he was basically out of the league and could never get back into it - despite him having scored 15g/85pts in his last ~145 games. Things change fast, and injuries can happen at any time. Do you really think a team that is willing to pay him 3.5-4.5m now would do so in the summer if he suffered a major injury late in the season that would cause him to miss 8-12 months? Now you're talking about him missing out on millions of dollars, all because he decided to wait for the summer to sign another contract. There's a reason why NHL players signed the contracts they do. I mean everyone called me an idiot for saying that Maatta would sign a 6x4m deal back in the summer of 2015 - yet that's exactly what he signed. Why? Because it guarantee's him a set amount of money should shit go downhill. And it's not like Cole has made anything serious over this career... this next contract of his is his chance to hit a home run (financially). So the sooner he can do that, the better off he will be.

This is especially the case if he's being HS's on a regular/semi-regular basis - I mean what's happening to his appeal league wide if he only plays 50% of the remaining games this season and 30% of the PO games? I don't think that's all that likely, but seeing how he's missed 100% of the last 4 as a HS, who knows. There's no guarantee's in this game, and as a pro athlete they have limited options to make bank... and thus when you can, you do so - especially when you've never really done so before. He has around 9m in career earnings. Him being able to sign a ~15-20m contract this summer (or sooner) is huge for his long term financial well being. But naw, lets ignore that completely. :facepalm

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, I don’t think trading Cole for picks would be outlandish.

I just think those picks would obviously be immediately moved for roster picks. Or at least moved this year.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Once again they gave him permission to negotiate a extension ( which he does not have to do and without permission breaks NHL labor rules ) on any potential deal with any potential team. They did not hire the agent to go about calling teams and making trades. If Cole reaches free agency his agent might contact teams but in reality his phone is going to be ringing on its own. Interest in Cole has shot up over the last two seasons. The Pens and Sully decided to commit to other d men this is their problem and they need to figure it out if they think they can get something for Cole.

You clearly cannot read because NOBODY has said he is making trades.

His job in this situation is to find team willing to extend Cole. GMJR does this because he then know which team are more likely willing to pay up to get him.

Its the same reason car salesmen want you to take a test drive and make a decision before you leave the lot. Get the buyer emotionally invested in the idea of Cole on their blueline for the next 4 1/2 years or so.

Cole does it so he gets of the situation he is unhappy with (Sullivans doghouse) and get financial security that could be torpedoed by either not playing or injury if he does play.

**** its not that hard to figure out.

 

[larueskee]

I think you are digging yourself a huge hole without thinking this one out.

IF Cole isn't playing, THEN his value does what?

Cole could see a dip in value but other GMs can see what this board sees. Rue? Come on he is a joke. I am not digging a hole for myself but you obviously have no idea what permission means in this case. It just means that a player under contract through the end of the year can negotiate a new contract with the team that the Pens are proposing to trade him to. What this board seems to think is that permission means to let Ian Cole become a free agent today " free meaning that agent could trade Cole to the Islanders for John Tavares " Ask during the next chat if you can't comprehend what I am telling you. Agents do not propose trades between clubs. It so laughable, its beyond silly at this point.

 

[Nakawick]

Heard Cole is going to start putting offers on the trade board. Wants to send himself and Hagelin to Vegas. Hagelin agent gave the OK. JR is being updated by text from Cole.

 

[Riptide]

Cole could see a dip in value but other GMs can see what this board sees. Rue? Come on he is a joke. I am not digging a hole for myself but you obviously have no idea what permission means in this case. It just means that a player under contract through the end of the year can negotiate a new contract with the team that the Pens are proposing to trade him to. What this board seems to think is that permission means to let Ian Cole become a free agent today " free meaning that agent could trade Cole to the Islanders for John Tavares " Ask during the next chat if you can't comprehend what I am telling you. Agents do not propose trades between clubs. It so laughable, its beyond silly at this point.

Your right, it is beyond silly at this point. But sadly we're still here because you can't comprehend the point, and you have no idea what permission means in this case. Yet you're still here making hsit up... So I agree... beyond silly.

 

[Gurglesons]

Heard Cole is going to start putting offers on the trade board. Wants to send himself and Hagelin to Vegas. Hagelin agent gave the OK. JR is being updated by text from Cole.

Weird, heard from a friend that knows Patrick Maroon’s agent’s wife that Maroon’s agent already set up a trade with Oilers offering Maroon and Edmonton’s 5th in 2019.

 

[SEALBound]

A agent is not going to make any calls to any GMs and propose a trade. The agent has no idea what the team would want in a trade and doesn't work for the Pens or say the Vancouver Canucks. So this is how a sign and trade would work for Ian Cole. Rutherford and the Pens ( they own Cole's contract ) find a " proposed deal contingent on Cole signing a extension " with say the Blue Jackets. At this stage the deal is taken to Cole's agent who discusses the deal with Cole and at this stage Cole can ask for more money or anything else. The Pens still have every right to trade Cole but without Cole agreeing to a extension the offering team might elect to cancel the deal. A team might not want to part with a pick, prospect, or active player for a short term rental.

That is what you meant isn't it? It is not up to Cole or his agent to propose trades or seek out trades. Permission to negotiate a extension is only a consideration after two teams have a deal in place. Come on its not that hard to understand. Pens find the deal and Cole then can try and negotiate a contract. If no contract the other team can pull out of the deal.

Once again they gave him permission to negotiate a extension ( which he does not have to do and without permission breaks NHL labor rules ) on any potential deal with any potential team. They did not hire the agent to go about calling teams and making trades. If Cole reaches free agency his agent might contact teams but in reality his phone is going to be ringing on its own. Interest in Cole has shot up over the last two seasons. The Pens and Sully decided to commit to other d men this is their problem and they need to figure it out if they think they can get something for Cole.

Cole could see a dip in value but other GMs can see what this board sees. Rue? Come on he is a joke. I am not digging a hole for myself but you obviously have no idea what permission means in this case. It just means that a player under contract through the end of the year can negotiate a new contract with the team that the Pens are proposing to trade him to. What this board seems to think is that permission means to let Ian Cole become a free agent today " free meaning that agent could trade Cole to the Islanders for John Tavares " Ask during the next chat if you can't comprehend what I am telling you. Agents do not propose trades between clubs. It so laughable, its beyond silly at this point.

You can not be serious. No way. I already have three stooges on my ignore list. What's one more at this point.

You ability to read and analyze what people are saying is very poor. I am almost beyond words reading what you just wrote.

 

[SEALBound]

Heard Cole is going to start putting offers on the trade board. Wants to send himself and Hagelin to Vegas. Hagelin agent gave the OK. JR is being updated by text from Cole.

Been watching reruns of Entourage trying to learn from Ari Gold to get the edge on those GMs.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

You can not be serious. No way. I already have three stooges on my ignore list. What's one more at this point.

You ability to read and analyze what people are saying is very poor. I am almost beyond words reading what you just wrote.

Nuance is difficult for some people

 

[Ryder71]

What specifics do you want to know?

I was in Detroit to see them hoist the cup in 2009. I was also unfortunately at Mellon Arena when Detroit won it here.

I went to every single home playoff game, except 1 in 2016. I went to probably 6 home games last playoffs. I had a 10 month old at the time. I couldn’t swing the trip to San Jose because of work. I was in South Carolina last year when we clinched the cup, regrettably. I watched the game at Big Ben’s bar in Kiawah. It was a pre planned family trip so couldn’t get out of it.

I love the Pens and have since as far back as I remember. I’m 34 and a large part of my childhood was penguins related. My family was very good friends with Ulfie and his family so I have so many great memories of attending private practices and what not.

I love the Penguins and I get so worked up at times because I’m seeing dumb decisions made by coaches and gm’s that I haven’t seen since the disco and Bylsma days. Sully and JR have been awesome until this season.

I probably care too much about the Steelers and Penguins.

I just think we are our own greatest enemy right now. I think Jimmy needed to do more over the last 6 months. I see a team stubbornly playing 3-4 guys every game that have no business playing on THIS team and that annoys me. Shero and Bylsma pisses away years and I just don’t want that to happen again. People blindly defended them for years after their 1 cup.

Some of the JR defenders eerily remind me of the Shero defenders. You can’t force teams to make trades! You can’t force players to sign here! Drafting is hard! Who cares if we traded a draft pick, players taken in x round have a x percentage of making it in the league. X player was a low risk high reward signing!

Although I think this fan base understands the importance of draft picks and drafting well, finally.

This post is very illuminating and I appreciate you taking the time to write it. I have a much better perspective now. You have a low tolerance for stupidity, which I can understand. With Bylsma it was plentiful. With Sully And after two straight cups, it's hard to knock the majority of what he does. As it pertains to JR, and while he has made mistakess (hiring MJ for example). The vast majority of his decisions helped propel this team forward.

For the record I was hoping they wouldn't re up Bonino, I wanted someone a bit better if possible. We'll find out soon enough if that was a wise decision or not. It is fairly apparent though that you focus on the negatives far more than the positives. Also, unless you yourself have control over such decisions, being idealistic has a lot of disappointment and pitfalls along the way.

 

[larueskee]

Here is a paragraph from todays Mackay Column in the post gazette : Getting pinged with pucks is nothing new for Cole, who blocked a franchise-record 194 pucks a season ago. That’s a number that has likely come up in trade talks, as the Penguins are in the process of wading through offers involving Cole. See it is the Penguins wading through the offers not Cole or his agent. Jeez.

 

[molon labe]

Been watching reruns of Entourage trying to learn from Ari Gold to get the edge on those GMs.

Problem is when the player's best friend steps in and shuts down every deal you set up after a hard day's work.

Such a great show.

 

[Gurglesons]

Problem is when the player's best friend steps in and shuts down every deal you set up after a hard day's work.

Such a great show.

Good thing we can always sell the tequila company and win two more cups. Wooooooooo. Sasha Grey.

 

[SEALBound]

Problem is when the player's best friend steps in and shuts down every deal you set up after a hard day's work.

Such a great show.

If I was Lemieux, I would have walked through the arena and locker rooms with a paint ball gun after the 2014 playoffs.