Salary Cap: Salary Cap & Roster Building: Does it even Maatta? The defense is still absolute Jack.

[Jag68Sid87]

Then why isn't 72 on his line... the things that make you go "hmmmmm".

It's not that crazy. Chemistry on the ice, off the ice, in the bedroom, etc...it's not an exact science. Things that you would think would match don't always match. If Crosby cannot stand to play with Hornqvist on his line, I can see it. If it's a personal issue, that is one thing. If it's simply on-ice chemistry, they would not be the first. I remember when Joe Sakic got Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne to play with for a season. I thought the three combined would set records. They did not. Selanne was hurting badly, but even then it was never going to work. But put a Steve Rucchin between those two wingers, and you had magic.

Chemistry is a funny thing.

 

[TimmyD]

The Penguins have Crosby's RW already in Kahun, I don't know why people are talking about Duchene as a fit for that. Not only is he going to get an assload of money, but the Penguins don't even need him.

Because you don't know 100% that he will fit with Sid since he hasn't even played one single shift with him yet

 

[Shady Machine]

The Penguins have Crosby's RW already in Kahun, I don't know why people are talking about Duchene as a fit for that. Not only is he going to get an assload of money, but the Penguins don't even need him.

I wouldn't make any firm assumptions about where Kahun fits in the long run, but yeah between Kahun, Horny, Rust, and Simon (not to mention Jake if McCann is his LW) there are plenty of options for Crosby's RW and shouldn't be a major priority.

 

[TKalltheTime]

It's not that crazy. Chemistry on the ice, off the ice, in the bedroom, etc...it's not an exact science. Things that you would think would match don't always match. If Crosby cannot stand to play with Hornqvist on his line, I can see it. If it's a personal issue, that is one thing. If it's simply on-ice chemistry, they would not be the first. I remember when Joe Sakic got Paul Kariya and Teemu Selanne to play with for a season. I thought the three combined would set records. They did not. Selanne was hurting badly, but even then it was never going to work. But put a Steve Rucchin between those two wingers, and you had magic.

Chemistry is a funny thing.

Well, then this "no chemistry" angle has really F'd the eye test & more or less the stat sheets, too.

 

[TKalltheTime]

Because you don't know 100% that he will fit with Sid since he hasn't even played one single shift with him yet

Couldn't the same be said for your M.D. pipedream? ha

 

[IcedCapp]

Jake Sid Duch would be one damn expensive line.

Also not paying Matt Duchene more than $8,699,999.99, regardless of context or inflation.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Little early to be assuming that imo. He probably gets a look there but nothing is guaranteed.

From reading his scouting report, I just really struggle to see him not fitting amazingly well with Crosby and Guentzel.

Because you don't know 100% that he will fit with Sid since he hasn't even played one single shift with him yet

Can't you say the same about Duchene? But the difference is that Kahun makes less than a tenth of what Duchene is rumored to want.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Well, then this "no chemistry" angle has really F'd the eye test & more or less the stat sheets, too.

I understand what you're saying but if the game's best player does not want to play with a certain player, I leave it there. Everything else matters little, really.

 

[molon labe]

I am an all-offense, all-the-time type so I understand your point. I am not opposed to adding another significant salary for this team, whether it be via RFA offer sheets or trades. Whether it be at forward or defense.

That said, if we use this example, how are you going to convince Duchene to sign here? What are you telling him, that you are playing 3C? That we are trading Malkin? Why is he going to choose to play in the same spot that Jordan Staal was unwilling to play at? Sure, Crosby and Malkin are older but neither is even at the point of aging yet. Malkin had a bad year by his lofty standards. He is still far and away better than Duchene right now. So what is Duchene's incentive to take that massive contract, which would hurt us to fill out the holes, to play 3c?

I would pay even more than $9.5 for a Marner or a Rantanen or a Laine, because there are several winger positions in the top nine but the center position is still rock-solid on the top two lines for the foreseeable future.

We don't want to become that helicopter team again that we used to be under Shero, where every single day we complained about no wings for Crosby and Malkin. I get it, we would have Jake Guentzel still but after that?

I'm not going to argue it's chance of happening (frankly we don't know until Duchene makes public his list of teams). I know why it would benefit us:

Sid and Geno are getting older - maybe not in the next 2 seasons do you start to take hard looks at minutes, but beyond that you might. As we proved in 2016 you can have two 2nd lines - calling something a 3rd line is in title only. If you're dividing minutes equally then how can you call one line superior to the next? All 3 could easily be on PP1...

This is going to be Duchene's biggest contract - so I'm not sure why he'll be ultra concerned about playing 1C going forward. That's a mentality I could see for a contract-year player who wants a bigger role/payday in the future. The time is now for Duchene, so where he plays on his next team should be less of an importance than going to a team that will maximize both his pay and potential success.

The same argument could have been made about Karlsson and look where he ended up. Why would a true #1D go to a team who already has a true #1D?

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Jake Sid Duch would be one damn expensive line.

Also not paying Matt Duchene more than $8,699,999.99, regardless of context or inflation.

Would that be your stance for all newcomers, or just UFA's?

Personally, I would offer sheet a young RFA who could take over the offense long after 87 and 71 are no longer franchise players by offering more than what Malkin is making.

At the end of the day, that is the only way to get one. Otherwise, yeah by all means I would set a Crosby cap for my team. Without question.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

I'm not going to argue it's chance of happening (frankly we don't know until Duchene makes public his list of teams). I know why it would benefit us:

Sid and Geno are getting older - maybe not in the next 2 seasons do you start to take hard looks at minutes, but beyond that you might. As we proved in 2016 you can have two 2nd lines - calling something a 3rd line is in title only. If you're dividing minutes equally then how can you call one line superior to the next? All 3 could easily be on PP1...

This is going to be Duchene's biggest contract - so I'm not sure why he'll be ultra concerned about playing 1C going forward. That's a mentality I could see for a contract-year player who wants a bigger role/payday in the future. The time is now for Duchene, so where he plays on his next team should be less of an importance than going to a team that will maximize both his pay and potential success.

The same argument could have been made about Karlsson and look where he ended up. Why would a true #1D go to a team who already has a true #1D?

Again, I am with you. Just not this particular player.

Mitchell Marner, Brayden Point, absolutely.

 

[TimmyD]

From reading his scouting report, I just really struggle to see him not fitting amazingly well with Crosby and Guentzel.



Can't you say the same about Duchene? But the difference is that Kahun makes less than a tenth of what Duchene is rumored to want.

Sid and Duchene have already played well together in international play. To be clear I would rather fix the defense first but even if you make more trades to clear out cap space there aren’t really any free agent defensemen worth signing besides Edler and it looks like he will be returning to Vancouver now and I think trading Phil for a defenseman isn’t what JR wants to do and I’m not sure any of our other pieces land a top 4 LD so this is the second route I would look at

 

[Sam Adams]

 

[Riptide]

Yea when i say "top flight", i'm not saying really expensive Panarin types.
More the ones that would mesh well with Sid or G.
Like i believe Zucker would do very well.
Speed to pressure the puck and his analytics say he improves everyone he plays with.
Or take STL for instance.
Shwartz, Schenn or Thomas would do very well here.
JT Miller, Killorn or Palat would do very well here.
Haula would do very well here.
Instead of top flight, let's say really good wingers that give good bang for their bucks thats spent on them.
I know it's not easy to get those but it's time to give Sid/G what they need instead of telling them to make it work with less.

ETA: Essentially. Be really smart with the moving of Phil here. If you want a Zucker type return. Stick with that and don't settle for less.

The issue with a "Zucker like return" for Kessel is that he's not a player without flaws and has an NTC that will likely prevent that from happening. That said, finding guys like Miller, Killorn, Haula, etc are a lot easier then finding guys like Panarin. Not easy... but easier.

As for the picks... I think it's a little late for that now. I'm not saying trade them all... but we needed to be keeping them 2-3 years ago so that they could develop into players who over the next year or so would be valuable for us (either on the ice or in trades). So while I wouldn't trade picks for older guys, I wouldn't be hording them as some other teams have been doing. Basically do what JR has said he'll be doing with them - if there's good younger players available, consider trading them. Otherwise make the selections.

 

[TimmyD]

Couldn't the same be said for your M.D. pipedream? ha

Sid and Duchene have already played well together in international play. To be clear I would rather fix the defense first but even if you make more trades to clear out cap space there aren’t really any free agent defensemen worth signing besides Edler and it looks like he will be returning to Vancouver now and I think trading Phil for a defenseman isn’t what JR wants to do and I’m not sure any of our other pieces land a top 4 LD so this is the second route I would look at. Trust me I would much rather fix our defense first

 

[davemess]

there are plenty of options for Crosby's RW and shouldn't be a major priority.

Yip.

If we are seriously considering adding a top 6 winger then it needs to be somebody that's going to mesh well with Geno.

Sid & Jake will be able to do their thing with a rotating cast of right-wingers.

If the season started today who plays with Geno? It cannot be Phil.

Phil & Geno have both played their best hockey when they are the guy with the puck on their stick and looking to take the shots. When they play together it is a waste, neither guy is on the puck as much and they both stop shooting and try to setup the other guy.

To me Geno's best form in the last couple of years was when he was playing between Hags & Hornqvist. Hags with his speed/hustle and Hornqvist by being around the net were perfect at distracting or occupying the other team.

If we agree Hornqvist isn't likely to play with Sid (despite it having worked before) and the Phil isn't going to play with Geno......... then Hornqvist pretty much has to play with Geno right? He isn't going to the 4th line.

So we need to find somebody that can do what Hags did (maybe with a little more offensive production), maybe that guy is McCann. However if we have the space/assets to add a forward then it should be somebody in speedy defensively responsible type that we go after.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Sid and Duchene have already played well together in international play. To be clear I would rather fix the defense first but even if you make more trades to clear out cap space there aren’t really any free agent defensemen worth signing besides Edler and it looks like he will be returning to Vancouver now and I think trading Phil for a defenseman isn’t what JR wants to do and I’m not sure any of our other pieces land a top 4 LD so this is the second route I would look at

Playing together internationally in a short time frame doesn't mean they'd play well together over a full season, especially when Duchene is a center. He's just 100% not worth the cost for a team who's already deep on the wings. If you want a winger, save $2.5 million and go after Zuccarello.

 

[TKalltheTime]

Sid and Duchene have already played well together in international play. To be clear I would rather fix the defense first but even if you make more trades to clear out cap space there aren’t really any free agent defensemen worth signing besides Edler and it looks like he will be returning to Vancouver now and I think trading Phil for a defenseman isn’t what JR wants to do and I’m not sure any of our other pieces land a top 4 LD so this is the second route I would look at. Trust me I would much rather fix our defense first

Kane played with some guys in a men’s league & he scored like 9 goals in that game, maybe the hawks should sign those guys too? This is obviously hyperbole, but still. Two totally different animals.

 

[Riptide]

I am worrying that JR "tried" to move JJ. And when Kessel nixed the Wild deal, JR was like o well and then moved Olli.

Na, old man. You had to move both.

Unless he can force Pettersson into taking something closer to 2m then 2.5m, odds are he will have to move both anyway - or find some other way to shed salary.

 

[TimmyD]

Playing together internationally in a short time frame doesn't mean they'd play well together over a full season, especially when Duchene is a center. He's just 100% not worth the cost for a team who's already deep on the wings. If you want a winger, save $2.5 million and go after Zuccarello.

I would rather not pay a 31 year old $7 million. Duchene can play both center and wing. Say Kahun does fit well with Sid, the give Malkin some help and run

Jake Sid Kahun
Duchene Malkin Puljujarvi

 

[TimmyD]

Kane played with some guys in a men’s league & he scored like 9 goals in that game, maybe the hawks should sign those guys too? This is obviously hyperbole, but still. Two totally different animals.

I mean yeah comparing men’s league to Olympic hockey is not a good defense in any way... also like I just said to Emp, say Kahun does mesh well with Sid then you would be able to give Malkin some help and could run with

Jake Sid Kahun
Duchene Malkin Puljujarvi

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

The Penguins have Crosby's RW already in Kahun, I don't know why people are talking about Duchene as a fit for that. Not only is he going to get an assload of money, but the Penguins don't even need him.

Not that it'd happen in a billion years anyway to obtain Duchene, but he'd be phenomenal with Malkin

 

[TKalltheTime]

I mean yeah comparing men’s league to Olympic hockey is not a good defense in any way... also like I just said to Emp, say Kahun does mesh well with Sid then you would be able to give Malkin some help and could run with

Jake Sid Kahun
Duchene Malkin Puljujarvi

Who’s filling the 3/4 roster spots that are vacant from all the trades that would have to magically happen to even entertain signing him. NONE of this makes sense.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I'd actually be tempted to try Johnson-Gudbranson to start next year and double shift Pettersson on the 3rd pair (and Dumoulin on the 2nd pair) to keep Johnson's ice time down. That pair is probably going to be a nightmare, but the last time Johnson was good was when he was on a shutdown pair with David Savard. Gudbranson isn't Savard, but I think you basically solve that 2nd pair issue and you can limit Johnson's ice time on the bottom pair. Just use that pair as a checking/grinding pair against the skilled guys on the other team and give your top-2 pairs as many offensive opportunities as you can get.

The pair? No. Gudbranson has been solid. If anything it's only just Johnson that is a nightmare on our defense.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

I understand what you're saying but if the game's best player does not want to play with a certain player, I leave it there. Everything else matters little, really.

I agree- we should just let Sid coach the team
I mean afterall, he sure knows how to pick FA's <cough> Jack <cough> Johnson