Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Sassy GM Edition

[Empoleon8771]

Watching rugby so can't make a proper reply to other posts but... are we sure its just on Sully that Sprong isn't being used on Sid's line? We know that Sid has a loud voice on who plays on his line. As you say, Kessel pretty much never plays with Crosby, and Sprong's more similar to Kessel than any of our other wings.

I feel like Crosby likes playing with young players, especially young skilled guys, so I wouldn't buy this. Crosby was giving pretty glowing reviews of Sprong at the start of training camp too, which makes me think Sprong's demotion comes from Sullivan giving him an incredibly short leash.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Rip initiated the comparison, and I'm seeing it through.

There's no way that Sprong could succeed in the environment he's been place in, and nobody here being able to provide a single valid counter-example bolsters that idea. Rip's Sheary example is the best anyone's been able to offer so far, and it falls well short.

Put Kessel, a star who scored 90+ points last year, in Sprong's role. Do you think he could succeed there today? Of course not. That's the point.

I bet Phil could still play well. He’d still score. Obviously not as much. I’m just saying if you are playing bad, you are playing bad. He doesn’t bring much to the table except being a goal scorer and he has none.

I will say with how Rust has played lately I don’t see why Sprong (or ZAR or basically anyone) couldn’t at least start with Sid next game. If Sprong isn’t scoring and is bad in the D zone then swap them back but I think 1 period to see how it goes isn’t too much to ask.

Rust should be on the 4th line right now especially with how L2 & L3 are set up.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Rip initiated the comparison, and I'm seeing it through.

There's no way that Sprong could succeed in the environment he's been place in, and nobody here being able to provide a single valid counter-example bolsters that idea. Rip's Sheary example is the best anyone's been able to offer so far, and it falls well short.

Put Kessel, a star who scored 90+ points last year, in Sprong's role. Do you think he could succeed there today? Of course not. That's the point.

I'm not a fan of how Sprong's been handled, but come on. If you put Kessel in that spot he'd do a hell of a lot better than Sprong has. He's just a much much much better hockey player.

 

[Shady Machine]

Oh yeah, it's completely because of Sullivan's stubbornness. When I say they "don't have a spot for him", I really mean "Sullivan thinks they don't have a spot for him because he doesn't like him". With Sullivan as the coach, they don't have a spot for him in a position he needs to be in to succeed. At some point, I think you have to seriously ask if Sullivan pushing this many players off the team is a problem. He almost pushed Kessel off the team and he has pushed Sprong and Cole off the team.

I don't get why some Penguins fans try to paint Sprong as being bad all of a sudden. Is it just a circle-jerk to counter the fans who complained about Sprong not being up in the past? Any amount of logic could tell you that Sprong is struggling because of how horribly Sullivan has misused him so far, since he's not a player who can succeed with bad linemates. But people seem to just want to jump on the "Sprong is bad" bandwagon.

Can’t it be both?

 

[Ogrezilla]

Can’t it be both?

no such thing as a middle ground. Either it's Sully's fault or Sprong's fault. No way they can both be somewhat at fault.

 

[Gurglesons]

Watching rugby so can't make a proper reply to other posts but... are we sure its just on Sully that Sprong isn't being used on Sid's line? We know that Sid has a loud voice on who plays on his line. As you say, Kessel pretty much never plays with Crosby, and Sprong's more similar to Kessel than any of our other wings.



Has Rutherford made a bigger mistake here yet?

Hunwick and Reaves

 

[Gurglesons]

Oh yeah, it's completely because of Sullivan's stubbornness. When I say they "don't have a spot for him", I really mean "Sullivan thinks they don't have a spot for him because he doesn't like him". With Sullivan as the coach, they don't have a spot for him in a position he needs to be in to succeed. At some point, I think you have to seriously ask if Sullivan pushing this many players off the team is a problem. He almost pushed Kessel off the team and he has pushed Sprong and Cole off the team.

I don't get why some Penguins fans try to paint Sprong as being bad all of a sudden. Is it just a circle-jerk to counter the fans who complained about Sprong not being up in the past? Any amount of logic could tell you that Sprong is struggling because of how horribly Sullivan has misused him so far, since he's not a player who can succeed with bad linemates. But people seem to just want to jump on the "Sprong is bad" bandwagon.

I don’t think any of us think Sprong is bad. It is just this view point of IT IS TOTALLY on Sully and that we’ve never seen a prospect as good as Sprong treated this way causes some extreme reactions.

Rip, TH, Shady, Ogre and I all agree that Sprong’s usage has been bad. But, he has also been very disappointing and does not deserve to be set up to succeed Regardless of what WC’s statistical propaganda tells you.

Once again, I’ll ask the question what is the asset that makes Sprong an NHLer? If it is his shot, he’s the only forward on our regular roster without a goal. And his shot totals are mediocre, while being one of our worst players defensively.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I don’t think any of us think Sprong is bad. It is just this view point of IT IS TOTALLY on Sully and that we’ve never seen a prospect as good as Sprong treated this way causes some extreme reactions.

Rip, TH, Shady, Ogre and I all agree that Sprong’s usage has been bad. But, he has also been very disappointing. Regardless of what WC’s statistical propaganda tells you.

speak for yourself. Dude's a bum. Ignore all the times I've said the opposite. I'm going heel.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Oh yeah, it's completely because of Sullivan's stubbornness. When I say they "don't have a spot for him", I really mean "Sullivan thinks they don't have a spot for him because he doesn't like him". With Sullivan as the coach, they don't have a spot for him in a position he needs to be in to succeed. At some point, I think you have to seriously ask if Sullivan pushing this many players off the team is a problem. He almost pushed Kessel off the team and he has pushed Sprong and Cole off the team.

I don't get why some Penguins fans try to paint Sprong as being bad all of a sudden. Is it just a circle-jerk to counter the fans who complained about Sprong not being up in the past? Any amount of logic could tell you that Sprong is struggling because of how horribly Sullivan has misused him so far, since he's not a player who can succeed with bad linemates. But people seem to just want to jump on the "Sprong is bad" bandwagon.

Like I said to Dx, I’m trying to be fair to both sides.

I’ve seen as much of Sprong at every level as most on here I’m willing to bet, and he’s a really talented player. I thought he would do well as a Pen, especially with his gunner mentality. However, people who just watched him in the bigs prob wonder wth I’m even talking about.

He obviously changed his game to appease Sullivan, which makes sense from a career survival standpoint. Was Sullivan right to mess with his game? Maybe... maybe not.

The jury is still out on that. All I know is DP is about the only prospect that has left in recent years that has done anything really, and most people reading that sentence are snickering so, that says a lot...

 

[Gurglesons]

speak for yourself. Dude's a bum. Ignore all the times I've said the opposite. I'm going heel.

Full Crosby.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Once again, I’ll ask the question what is the asset that makes Sprong an NHLer? If it is his shot, he’s the only forward on our regular roster without a goal. And his shot totals are mediocre, while being one of our worst players defensively.

This part is funny to me, because it's the people that argue for him the most that seem to completely discount his ability to do anything on his own. It's like he's an immobile turret who needs an elite player to dish him gimme one-timers or he's nothing at all. And that's the argument FOR him.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

I bet Phil could still play well. He’d still score. Obviously not as much. I’m just saying if you are playing bad, you are playing bad. He doesn’t bring much to the table except being a goal scorer and he has none.

I will say with how Rust has played lately I don’t see why Sprong (or ZAR or basically anyone) couldn’t at least start with Sid next game. If Sprong isn’t scoring and is bad in the D zone then swap them back but I think 1 period to see how it goes isn’t too much to ask.

Rust should be on the 4th line right now especially with how L2 & L3 are set up.

I'm not a fan of how Sprong's been handled, but come on. If you put Kessel in that spot he'd do a hell of a lot better than Sprong has. He's just a much much much better hockey player.

I bet his statline would look a lot more like Sprong's than people would like to acknowledge if he were playing in the slot on PP2 and only got a handful of minutes with 40% o-zone deployments on the 4th line with Sheahan and Cullen. He'd probably have a couple more points than Sprong...and this is a 90 point player we're talking about.

With you on Rust. The fact that he keeps getting thrown onto Sid's line no matter how often it doesn't work while we've lost 5 in a row and have 1 ES goal in our last 4 games totally undermines the idea of the Pens being dedicated to accountability. There's no accountability for anyone but the coach's whipping boys...everybody else gets to endlessly "work through" their issues until JR's had enough and they're traded.

 

[Peat]

I don't get why some Penguins fans try to paint Sprong as being bad all of a sudden. Is it just a circle-jerk to counter the fans who complained about Sprong not being up in the past? Any amount of logic could tell you that Sprong is struggling because of how horribly Sullivan has misused him so far, since he's not a player who can succeed with bad linemates. But people seem to just want to jump on the "Sprong is bad" bandwagon.

Because we're watching the games and are seeing things we don't like that we don't think should be put entirely on his linemates. I mean, why else would it be? And a bunch of the people saying it aren't Sprong haters. Hell, I was prepared to trade Kessel this summer partially due to my confidence in Sprong. I was defending him in pre-season. But by now, what I'm seeing, I just can't agree with you. And Rutherford, as big a fan of his as can be and pretty blunt, clearly isn't happy either. Or he wouldn't be saying he hadn't earned a place past Rust (who he's really criticised).

And I'm happy to debate differences in opinion, test whether mine is right or wrong, but its a bit frustrating on this side of the argument when pretty much every point brought up is dismissed as being usage.

I feel like Crosby likes playing with young players, especially young skilled guys, so I wouldn't buy this. Crosby was giving pretty glowing reviews of Sprong at the start of training camp too, which makes me think Sprong's demotion comes from Sullivan giving him an incredibly short leash.

Sid's last quote on Sprong from training camp I remember - something about seeing players get more assertive from training camp to training camp - was about as non-committal as possible.

But I could be wrong. Just spitballing here. Lets say you're right and Sid would like to play with Sprong... do you think he wouldn't be in Sully's ear about it? Do you think Sully would be ignoring his captain and his boss' wish to see the player succeed while short of goals?

 

[Ogrezilla]

I bet his statline would look a lot more like Sprong's than people would like to acknowledge if he were playing in the slot on PP2 and only got a handful of minutes with 40% o-zone deployments on the 4th line with Sheahan and Cullen. And this is a 90 point player we're talking about.

it's also a hypothetical failure that you just made up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Can’t it be both?

I blame Sullivan way more because way better players than Sprong have had the same problems Sprong is currently having, due to bad usage. This isn't just a Sprong problem, James Neal had the same issue with scoring goals when he first got to Pittsburgh. It's no coincidence he went from 2 goals in 27 games with Letestu to 40 goals in 82 games as soon as Malkin got back.

Because we're watching the games and are seeing things we don't like that we don't think should be put entirely on his linemates. I mean, why else would it be? And a bunch of the people saying it aren't Sprong haters. Hell, I was prepared to trade Kessel this summer partially due to my confidence in Sprong. I was defending him in pre-season. But by now, what I'm seeing, I just can't agree with you. And Rutherford, as big a fan of his as can be and pretty blunt, clearly isn't happy either. Or he wouldn't be saying he hadn't earned a place past Rust (who he's really criticised).

And I'm happy to debate differences in opinion, test whether mine is right or wrong, but its a bit frustrating on this side of the argument when pretty much every point brought up is dismissed as being usage.

There are some areas in Sprong's game that are just bad. He's a pure triggerman, look at him in the context of that. Are there areas weak in his game? Yeah of course, there are a ton of areas in his game that are weak. Just like Phil Kessel, but people don't judge Phil Kessel on his ability to forecheck or his defensive play.

Sprong is a guy that's going to provide you offense and nothing else, so to judge him based on anything else other than offense just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to say Brian Dumoulin sucks because he can't score a goal.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I blame Sullivan way more because way better players than Sprong have had the same problems Sprong is currently having, due to bad usage. This isn't just a Sprong problem, James Neal had the same issue with scoring goals when he first got to Pittsburgh. It's no coincidence he went from 2 goals in 27 games with Letestu to 40 goals in 82 games as soon as Malkin got back.

If Sprong's production was the main criticism, this would be a much better point. But it's not.

 

[Andy99]

But whether Sprong wasn’t good or could have been better on the fourth line in his 12 games is beside the point....why does that justify trading him, a guy who showed good promise in the AHL last year? Why not keep him longer and try him out on other lines to see if there’s a fit for him or play him when there are injuries and give him a longer look? What’s the harm...I understand if you’re getting back a very good player who’s going to score goals for you in the top 9, but we won’t be getting that back for Sprong unless he’s part of a larger package....trading him by himself does nothing to improve the team

 

[Gurglesons]

But whether Sprong wasn’t good or could have been better on the fourth line in his 12 games is beside the point....why does that justify trading him, a guy who showed good promise in the AHL last year? Why not keep him longer and try him out on other lines to see if there’s a fit for him or play him when there are injuries and give him a longer look? What’s the harm...I understand if you’re getting back a very good player who’s going to score goals for you in the top 9, but we won’t be getting that back for Sprong unless he’s part of a larger package....trading him by himself does nothing to improve the team

I think all of us agree here. Moving Sprong at this juncture is stupid.

But there is blame on Rutherford for that due burning his ELC for literally no reason.

Sullivan for his deployment and unwillingness to try the occasional shift with our top six.

And Sprong for being Milli Vanilli.

Let’s not make this a Sullivan is running him out of town.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If Sprong's production was the main criticism, I'd agree with you. But it's not.

It depends on what you're expecting out of him. I don't expect anything out of him beyond his production, because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. I judge him solely on his production because that's all he's going to offer, I don't particularly care how good of a forechecker he is or how good defensively he is. It's the same way with Kessel, you can criticize him for being soft and lazy defensively, but at the end of the day, what defines how well he is playing are his point totals.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

it's also a hypothetical failure that you just made up.

Yep. As a thought exercise.

You know what's not hypothetical? The inability of anyone to show a single example of something they expect Sprong to be able to do.

Remember "he'll start seeing more minutes"? Remember "he'll periodically get swapped with Rust to get more scoring line time and o-zone starts"? Remember "it's a long season and he'll get his chance"?

None of those things have materialized and now he's on the trading block with you blaming him despite never getting the opportunities you assumed were forthcoming.

 

[Peat]

Hunwick and Reaves

Reaves lost us 20 places in the draft and a guy with marginal value that we were losing anyway, and turned him into part of a (admittedly weird and probably favour led) giant reduction on Brassard's cap. We'd have paid most of that price for the reduction happily.

Hunwick was bad but does 1 year of meh defensive play and losing a bit of value on trading Sheary outweigh having to make hasty decisions on a guy with big potential?

This part is funny to me, because it's the people that argue for him the most that seem to completely discount his ability to do anything on his own. It's like he's an immobile turret who needs an elite player to dish him gimme one-timers or he's nothing at all. And that's the argument FOR him.

I'm beginning to think they're kinda right though. Sprong's inability to effect play unless given the puck on his stick in space is one of the things that has disappointed me. His play for Simon's goal was exactly what he needed to show but it hasn't been a regular thing.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I blame Sullivan way more because way better players than Sprong have had the same problems Sprong is currently having, due to bad usage. This isn't just a Sprong problem, James Neal had the same issue with scoring goals when he first got to Pittsburgh. It's no coincidence he went from 2 goals in 27 games with Letestu to 40 goals in 82 games as soon as Malkin got back.



There are some areas in Sprong's game that are just bad. He's a pure triggerman, look at him in the context of that. Are there areas weak in his game? Yeah of course, there are a ton of areas in his game that are weak. Just like Phil Kessel, but people don't judge Phil Kessel on his ability to forecheck or his defensive play.

Sprong is a guy that's going to provide you offense and nothing else, so to judge him based on anything else other than offense just doesn't make sense to me. I'm not going to say Brian Dumoulin sucks because he can't score a goal.

It depends on what you're expecting out of him. I don't expect anything out of him beyond his production, because he doesn't offer anything beyond that. I judge him solely on his production because that's all he's going to offer, I don't particularly care how good of a forechecker he is or how good defensively he is. It's the same way with Kessel, you can criticize him for being soft and lazy defensively, but at the end of the day, what defines how well he is playing are his point totals.

We're a team that is struggling defensively and Sprong is the worst defensive forward on the team by a wide margin. I would wager that Sully is preaching team defense every chance he gets this season. I don't think it's crazy to avoid promoting your worst defensive forward in that situation. Again, I would give him a shot. Especially since scoring has dried up lately. But there are legitimate reasons to not do it. That's my main contention with a lot of people who are just blaming Sully and acting like he's just being completely idiotic.

And seriously, let's stop pointing at Kessel. The guy is just so much better than Sprong right now that it's just a silly comparison. I get that Kessel is an offensive player. But he's an elite scorer who can drive offense on his own. He's not a pure triggerman who needs elite help to score. He's proven to do it year after year. AND even he's better than Sprong defensively.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

If Sprong's production was the main criticism, this would be a much better point. But it's not.

Remember when he was played with Crosby last year and had fantastic underlying numbers because he wasn't being buried in his own zone with plugs for single digits a night?

I remember.

 

[Gurglesons]

Reaves lost us 20 places in the draft and a guy with marginal value that we were losing anyway, and turned him into part of a (admittedly weird and probably favour led) giant reduction on Brassard's cap. We'd have paid most of that price for the reduction happily.

Hunwick was bad but does 1 year of meh defensive play and losing a bit of value on trading Sheary outweigh having to make hasty decisions on a guy with big potential?.

I’d say more his decision to sign / trade for those players while leaving the hole at center.

Kind of like this year and the LW and acquiring Johnson.

He’s going to the UFA grocery store without a list and buying ingredients that don’t belong in our recipe.

 

[Ogrezilla]

But whether Sprong wasn’t good or could have been better on the fourth line in his 12 games is beside the point....why does that justify trading him, a guy who showed good promise in the AHL last year? Why not keep him longer and try him out on other lines to see if there’s a fit for him or play him when there are injuries and give him a longer look? What’s the harm...I understand if you’re getting back a very good player who’s going to score goals for you in the top 9, but we won’t be getting that back for Sprong unless he’s part of a larger package....trading him by himself does nothing to improve the team

I think trading him right now would be stupid.