Salary Cap: Salary Cap + Roster Building (Cap Details in First Post) | Sassy GM Edition

[ronduguayshair]

Re the idea they wouldn't trade Rust because Sully loves him...


And Re What Does Trading Sprong fix...

It fixes have a depreciating asset that the org is convinced won't help this season. That's all. Its not much, its not fixing the big stuff, but if that's their opinion then its better to do it than not. I think everyone can agree with that, even if they disagree with the org's assessment of the situation in the first place.

Right if we are truly in win now mode and Sprong isn't a good 4th liner then we should trade him due to the log jam we have at wing. I just think we should keep him on the fourth line and be patient. Nobody involved seems to want this though.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Re the idea they wouldn't trade Rust because Sully loves him...

... have you guys seem where all the Sully 'favourites' play this season?

It doesn't matter who likes you in this org, under Rutherford the leash for underperformers doesn't extend more than a season and often goes a lot less than that. Rutherford's not going to sit by and watch the chance for his 4th Stanley Cup sail by because Sully likes a kid.

Hell, its not even all performance. Rust was part of rumoured trade offers last Summer. This team can trade a RW or two and remain just as strong most days there while getting stronger elsewhere. Getting paid has put Rust in a precarious position there that's been made worse by Simon looking like Sid's best RW. But if he's gonna underperform as well?

Re @BlindWillyMcHurt - Geno/Horny is a bad example because the stats sheet shows they'd been successful before then in 16/17 - just one of those combos that looked so ugly nobody remembered it.

But I get your skepticism about Johnson.



You may be right about Ottawa, I didn't focus heavily on them, but I definitely saw a change in our own play.


And Re What Does Trading Sprong fix...

It fixes have a depreciating asset that the org is convinced won't help this season. That's all. Its not much, its not fixing the big stuff, but if that's their opinion then its better to do it than not. I think everyone can agree with that, even if they disagree with the org's assessment of the situation in the first place.

Trading an asset before you know what you have is quite uncommon. I mention it before, but I can’t think of a case where a guy jumped right out of juniors and potted 30 goals in the A as a rookie... then his team was in a big hurry to get rid of him after a cup of coffee the next season.

That doesn’t mean it’s never happened, I’m just not aware of any situation from all the prospects I’ve followed over the years. It’s most definitely a rare situation when a team is in a hurry to dump a proven goal scorer (at LL) prospect. Those guys are usually pretty valued.

Again, we know why it’s happening, as guys like Cole, DP and Reaves can attest, when Sullivan makes up his mind about you, forget about it.

I just wish a deal had been made at the deadline or in the summer when Sprong’s perceived value would have been higher.

One thing I feel strongly about is that Rutherford and Sullivan need to be more on the same page, because it’s quite clear Sullivan is steadfast about guys he doesn’t like and throws no lifelines to anyone he doesn’t want on his roster.

 

[Peat]

Trading an asset before you know what you have is quite uncommon. I mention it before, but I can’t think of a case where a guy jumped right out of juniors and potted 30 goals in the A as a rookie... then his team was in a big hurry to get rid of him after a cup of coffee the next season.

That doesn’t mean it’s never happened, I’m just not aware of any situation from all the prospects I’ve followed over the years. It’s most definitely a rare situation when a team is in a hurry to dump a proven goal scorer (at LL) prospect. Those guys are usually pretty valued.

Again, we know why it’s happening, as guys like Cole, DP and Reaves can attest, when Sullivan makes up his mind about you, forget about it.

I just wish a deal had been made at the deadline or in the summer when Sprong’s perceived value would have been higher.

How much higher do you think his value would have been then? I've got nothing to point at either way because, as you say, this is quite uncommon, but I'd be surprised if these 12 games has hit his value all that much. He's still the exact same player he was in the Summer and while having a team give up on a prospect during a campaign feels like a bust, is it all that different to a GM selling on a kid during the summer?

One thing I feel strongly about is that Rutherford and Sullivan need to be more on the same page, because it’s quite clear Sullivan is steadfast about guys he doesn’t like and throws no lifelines to anyone he doesn’t want on his roster.

I feel like people are treating every single mistake as being Rutherford and Sully not being on the same page right now, when its often just as credible that they both made a mistake in analysing a situation, but in this case I don't see much to argue about.

I'd really love to have heard their conversations there and hear Rutherford talk about what's happened to his perception of Sprong between the summer and now. Did he think Sprong would come out all guns blazing and force Sully to change his mind? I don't particularly object to his statement that Sprong hasn't outplayed his rivals for a spot, but I'd like to know he thought Sprong was going to do to outplay them that he hasn't done, because the bar has been pretty low.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How much higher do you think his value would have been then? I've got nothing to point at either way because, as you say, this is quite uncommon, but I'd be surprised if these 12 games has hit his value all that much. He's still the exact same player he was in the Summer and while having a team give up on a prospect during a campaign feels like a bust, is it all that different to a GM selling on a kid during the summer?

I feel like people are treating every single mistake as being Rutherford and Sully not being on the same page right now, when its often just as credible that they both made a mistake in analysing a situation, but in this case I don't see much to argue about.

I'd really love to have heard their conversations there and hear Rutherford talk about what's happened to his perception of Sprong between the summer and now. Did he think Sprong would come out all guns blazing and force Sully to change his mind? I don't particularly object to his statement that Sprong hasn't outplayed his rivals for a spot, but I'd like to know he thought Sprong was going to do to outplay them that he hasn't done, because the bar has been pretty low.

It’s hard to say what the value drop would be, unless I was in the room with JR listening in, obviously.

However, you don’t have to be a genius to figure out when other GMs smell blood and a desperate peer, and they also know your coach doesn’t want this kid on his roster... that you aren’t going to get the value you would have before it all came to a head like this.

As for them being on the same page, it’s hard to know about all the players they brought in, but I do know specifically guys like Reaves and Sprong aren’t guys Sullivan particularly wanted on his roster.

Maybe Sullivan agreed to appease JR... no idea. He’s still his boss afterall, but Sullivan seems to stick to his ideals, which is good and bad, and IMHO passive aggressively showed JR these guys don’t work for his roster.

 

[Peat]

It’s hard to say what the value drop would be, unless I was in the room with JR listening in, obviously.

However, you don’t have to be a genius to figure out when other GMs smell blood and a desperate peer, and they also know your coach doesn’t want this kid on his roster... that you aren’t going to get the value you would have before it all came to a head like this.

That's a fair point. I dunno, I'm probably allowing myself to be misled by the fact that the offers in the trade forum don't look all that different from the summer. I was certainly for trading Sprong this summer if Sully didn't want to use him and assumed from the fact that it didn't happen that Rutherford was confident he did.

As for them being on the same page, it’s hard to know about all the players they brought in, but I do know specifically guys like Reaves and Sprong aren’t guys Sullivan particularly wanted on his roster.

Maybe Sullivan agreed to appease JR... no idea. He’s still his boss afterall, but Sullivan seems to stick to his ideals, which is good and bad, and IMHO passive aggressively showed JR these guys don’t work for his roster.

Just Sprong's personality rubbing him the wrong way, or not viewing Sprong as a good fit for the hockey he wanted to play too?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

The key difference being that Sheary was actually scoring. I know rough concept when talking about someone who's suppose to be a goal scorer.

Provided we want to make a fact-based comparison, here's what Sheary's statline for his first 12 games read:

12GP - 2G - 1A - 3PTS

Conor Sheary 2015-16 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

He was averaging 12 minutes a game in contrast to Sprong's 9, and 1 goal and 1 assist of his 3 total points through 12 games were with Crosby.

Boston Bruins at Pittsburgh Penguins Box Score — December 18, 2015 | Hockey-Reference.com

So despite averaging 3 more minutes a game, and scoring 2 of his 3 points in a role Sprong hasn't been lucky enough to see, and getting about 70% o-zone starts compared to Sprong's 40%, Sprong still outproduces him. And despite all those advantages and the argument that Sheary was pulling his weight defensively where Sprong hasn't, Sheary also had a worse +/- through 12 games.

 

[DegenX]

It’s hard to say what the value drop would be, unless I was in the room with JR listening in, obviously.

However, you don’t have to be a genius to figure out when other GMs smell blood and a desperate peer, and they also know your coach doesn’t want this kid on his roster... that you aren’t going to get the value you would have before it all came to a head like this.

As for them being on the same page, it’s hard to know about all the players they brought in, but I do know specifically guys like Reaves and Sprong aren’t guys Sullivan particularly wanted on his roster.

Maybe Sullivan agreed to appease JR... no idea. He’s still his boss afterall, but Sullivan seems to stick to his ideals, which is good and bad, and IMHO passive aggressively showed JR these guys don’t work for his roster.

That HCMS is stubborn in his mindset was evident with Plotnikov. Whether his skillset was NHL ready or not is kind of debatable, his washout with AZ could easily have been a result of having his confidence crushed and just wanting to go home to Russia. Either way, it was evident pretty quickly he wasn't one of Sully's guys and was ass out. An early indication that has been proven over the course of his time here.

I thought it was kind of funny that the summer started with all the rumors about Kessel coming from Madden, but it was Sheary that was traded. Not long after, the Kessel stuff stopped being pushed. I don't think Sully was given a choice about Sprong, and I think the kid has suffered for it. It feels like there's a power struggle going on there, but then GMJR goes off in to local media about the players without faulting coaching, so IDK.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That's a fair point. I dunno, I'm probably allowing myself to be misled by the fact that the offers in the trade forum don't look all that different from the summer. I was certainly for trading Sprong this summer if Sully didn't want to use him and assumed from the fact that it didn't happen that Rutherford was confident he did.

Just Sprong's personality rubbing him the wrong way, or not viewing Sprong as a good fit for the hockey he wanted to play too?

Sullivan maybe has to have more of an open mind... I dunno, just spitballing.

Sullivan decided Reaves couldn’t play in his lineup and used him like a goon. Yet he was a big part of a great line for the Blues, then helped the Knights on their cup run with a couple big goals... Gallant is even giving him some PP time now and he already has four goals this season.

I’ve known about the Sprong stuff for over a year now, so I kind of knew this was coming and was prepared for it happening. He was never one of my favorite prospects, like Simon or TB, I just felt he was their most important one given his rare ability to score goals and gunner mentality they lacked.

Much like Reaves and Cole, I’m sure Sprong can’t wait to get out of Pgh though. I’m 100% sure he knew how Sullivan felt unless he was massively dense.

In the end, the Pens haven’t sent away any prospects that have bitten them in the ass in quite awhile, so maybe the people who like to bust all over Sprong will thump their chests some more in a couple years.

 

[froods]

Or maybe, here's another crazy thought, Sprong tore apart the AHL last year and is still only 21, and since he has to be in the NHL, it makes sense to put him in a position to succeed. That makes a lot more sense than calling a 21 year old winger prospect who tore apart the AHL last year "terrible".

A lot of players have tore up the AHL and have done nothing on the NHL level. If it was confidence, maybe, but he can’t create time and space at this level at all. With his type of game, that is a huge, huge concern.

 

[Andy99]

That's a fair point. I dunno, I'm probably allowing myself to be misled by the fact that the offers in the trade forum don't look all that different from the summer. I was certainly for trading Sprong this summer if Sully didn't want to use him and assumed from the fact that it didn't happen that Rutherford was confident he did.



Just Sprong's personality rubbing him the wrong way, or not viewing Sprong as a good fit for the hockey he wanted to play too?

I love how Sully can decide a player can’t play for him or isn’t a fit after 12 games, especially someone with very little history in the nhl...why is Riikola still up then? Or JJ playing?

It’s so clearly about Sprong the person....there are so many young players around the league playing for their respective teams despite not playing all that well, but we have to give up on ours...it’s not like we’ll be getting anyone back for him either who can help us now, particularly with scoring goals....it’s so dumb it’s hard to speak...

If JR wanted Sprong to be here to start the season and yet he’s ready to ship him out for a 5th round pick after October because of Sullivan, he should be shipping Sully out instead or firing himself ....

 

[Empoleon8771]

A lot of players have tore up the AHL and have done nothing on the NHL level. If it was confidence, maybe, but he can’t create time and space at this level at all. With his type of game, that is a huge, huge concern.

And very few tore up the AHL as a 20 year old rookie. Give me a list of guys who came into the AHL at age 20, put up the kind of production that Sprong did and ended up nothing in the NHL. I'll wait. Because here are some actual comparables for players who produced like Sprong in the AHL at age 20:

Kyle Palmieri hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com
Tomas Tatar hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com
Jason Zucker hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com
Tyler Toffoli hockey statistics and profile at hockeydb.com

 

[The Old Master]

what gets me is even if you are going to trade a guy, should you not try to get his value up?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

That HCMS is stubborn in his mindset was evident with Plotnikov. Whether his skillset was NHL ready or not is kind of debatable, his washout with AZ could easily have been a result of having his confidence crushed and just wanting to go home to Russia. Either way, it was evident pretty quickly he wasn't one of Sully's guys and was ass out. An early indication that has been proven over the course of his time here.

I thought it was kind of funny that the summer started with all the rumors about Kessel coming from Madden, but it was Sheary that was traded. Not long after, the Kessel stuff stopped being pushed. I don't think Sully was given a choice about Sprong, and I think the kid has suffered for it. It feels like there's a power struggle going on there, but then GMJR goes off in to local media about the players without faulting coaching, so IDK.

I’m just trying to be fair with both sides. Sometimes we get too attached to a prospect and don’t want to admit he’s just not cut out to be the player we hoped.

But for the third or fourth time, this is highly unusual to give up on a proven goal scorer at lower levels this early in his career. Very rare.

I just don’t buy the argument the insiders are putting out there... too many rws ahead of him. I mean c’mon... Kessel never plays with Crosby and Rust has been a compete ghost. But that sounds better than saying the coach has never wanted this kid on his roster I suppose.

 

[Andy99]

That HCMS is stubborn in his mindset was evident with Plotnikov. Whether his skillset was NHL ready or not is kind of debatable, his washout with AZ could easily have been a result of having his confidence crushed and just wanting to go home to Russia. Either way, it was evident pretty quickly he wasn't one of Sully's guys and was ass out. An early indication that has been proven over the course of his time here.

I thought it was kind of funny that the summer started with all the rumors about Kessel coming from Madden, but it was Sheary that was traded. Not long after, the Kessel stuff stopped being pushed. I don't think Sully was given a choice about Sprong, and I think the kid has suffered for it. It feels like there's a power struggle going on there, but then GMJR goes off in to local media about the players without faulting coaching, so IDK.

Agree that there looks to be a power struggle there over the past 18 months—JR getting antsy when things go south and Sully being stubborn with pretty much everything ...it’s apparently hurting the team...JR seems scared to take the bull by the horns because Sully won a couple Cups...this situation is a mess

 

[Empoleon8771]

I’m just trying to be fair with both sides. Sometimes we get too attached to a prospect and don’t want to admit he’s just not cut out to be the player we hoped.

But for the third or fourth time, this is highly unusual to give up on a proven goal scorer at lower levels this early in his career. Very rare.

I just don’t buy the argument the insiders are putting out there... too many rws ahead of him. I mean c’mon... Kessel never plays with Crosby and Rust has been a compete ghost. But that sounds better than saying the coach has never wanted this kid on his roster I suppose.

But at the same point, they're not giving him away this early because they don't like him as a prospect (or at least I don't think that). They're giving him away because he's waiver eligible and they don't have a spot for him, and I think they realize he's a wasted asset if they don't have a spot for him in the top-9. I think Sullivan doesn't like him, but Rutherford definitely does. It's just a result of unfortunate circumstances, he's being shopped solely because he's waiver eligible. It's very rare to see guys like Sprong get traded because it's very rare for 21 year old players to be waiver exempt and not firmly established in the NHL.

 

[Tom Hanks]

Provided we want to make a fact-based comparison, here's what Sheary's statline for his first 12 games read:

12GP - 2G - 1A - 3PTS

Conor Sheary 2015-16 Game Log | Hockey-Reference.com

He was averaging 12 minutes a game in contrast to Sprong's 9, and 1 goal and 1 assist of his 3 total points through 12 games were with Crosby.

Boston Bruins at Pittsburgh Penguins Box Score — December 18, 2015 | Hockey-Reference.com

So despite averaging 3 more minutes a game, and scoring 2 of his 3 points in a role Sprong hasn't been lucky enough to see, and getting about 70% o-zone starts compared to Sprong's 40%, Sprong still outproduces him. And despite all those advantages and the argument that Sheary was pulling his weight defensively where Sprong hasn't, Sheary also had a worse +/- through 12 games.

You know you are comparing Sheary’s first 12 NHL games to Sprong’s 27th -38th games.
It doesn’t really matter anyway Sheary isn’t here anymore but he could score goals.

Of course he could be playing with better players but at the end of the day if you are playing bad you are playing bad and it’s on the player to show something. Hes a goal scorer with 0 goals and some pretty bad advanced stats. He’s an adult professional hockey player and he’ll have to be better no matter what team or line he plays on.

Maybe hockey is completely different but I’ve played other sports where coaches have put me in positions which didn’t really suit me and I didn’t agree with. I played some bad games but I worked on how I could be effective in that role. Worked on those aspects first and played better. Eventually other positions opened up which suited my game and in the end I was a better player for it.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

But at the same point, they're not giving him away this early because they don't like him as a prospect (or at least I don't think that). They're giving him away because he's waiver eligible and they don't have a spot for him, and I think they realize he's a wasted asset if they don't have a spot for him in the top-9. I think Sullivan doesn't like him, but Rutherford definitely does. It's just a result of unfortunate circumstances, he's being shopped solely because he's waiver eligible. It's very rare to see guys like Sprong get traded because it's very rare for 21 year old players to be waiver exempt and not firmly established in the NHL.

There’s a spot there if Sullivan wanted to find it. Let’s not kid ourselves.

They have lost five in a row and have only a couple ES goal during the losing streak. Sullivan’s solution is to keep throwing Rust there.

Even if I hadn’t been told how he felt about Sprong, it’s common sense what’s going on now.

 

[Andy99]

But at the same point, they're not giving him away this early because they don't like him as a prospect (or at least I don't think that). They're giving him away because he's waiver eligible and they don't have a spot for him, and I think they realize he's a wasted asset if they don't have a spot for him in the top-9. I think Sullivan doesn't like him, but Rutherford definitely does. It's just a result of unfortunate circumstances, he's being shopped solely because he's waiver eligible. It's very rare to see guys like Sprong get traded because it's very rare for 21 year old players to be waiver exempt and not firmly established in the NHL.

Except injuries will happen so what’s the harm in keeping him as the 13th forward even if he’s scratched because he’s not a fourth liner? They can send Riikola up and down to the A at will if they need a roster spot....it’s one thing if they can get an every day NHL player back for Sprong who can help the team more now, but that’s really unlikely...they don’t need another fourth liner and all Sprong will net otherwise is a pick or another struggling prospect...

 

[Shady Machine]

But at the same point, they're not giving him away this early because they don't like him as a prospect (or at least I don't think that). They're giving him away because he's waiver eligible and they don't have a spot for him, and I think they realize he's a wasted asset if they don't have a spot for him in the top-9. I think Sullivan doesn't like him, but Rutherford definitely does. It's just a result of unfortunate circumstances, he's being shopped solely because he's waiver eligible. It's very rare to see guys like Sprong get traded because it's very rare for 21 year old players to be waiver exempt and not firmly established in the NHL.

Which all goes back to JR being an idiot keeping him in the NHL after 9 games in his rookie year.

 

[EightyOne]

Maybe Sprong mirrors Glodobin situation? Coach didn't like player. Made excuses. Team gives up on keeping him. Criticised as having offense but lacking defense?

DeBoer explains why Canucks' Goldobin didn't work for Sharks

Keep in mind, DeBoer is an arrogant asshole. A trait not great in a HC.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/sharks/aftermath-hansen-goldobin-trade-shows-risks-playing-it-safe?amp

And some regret when trading prospects out...

Glodobin is okay with VAN. 3x the points in only double the games of Sprong.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

You know you are comparing Sheary’s first 12 NHL games to Sprong’s 27th -38th games.
It doesn’t really matter anyway Sheary isn’t here anymore but he could score goals.

Of course he could be playing with better players but at the end of the day if you are playing bad you are playing bad and it’s on the player to show something. Hes a goal scorer with 0 goals and some pretty bad advanced stats. He’s an adult professional hockey player and he’ll have to be better no matter what team or line he plays on.

Maybe hockey is completely different but I’ve played other sports where coaches have put me in positions which didn’t really suit me and I didn’t agree with. I played some bad games but I worked on how I could be effective in that role. Worked on those aspects first and played better. Eventually other positions opened up which suited my game and in the end I was a better player for it.

Rip initiated the comparison, and I'm seeing it through.

There's no way that Sprong could succeed in the environment he's been place in, and nobody here being able to provide a single valid counter-example bolsters that idea. Rip's Sheary example is the best anyone's been able to offer so far, and it falls well short.

Put Kessel, a star who scored 90+ points last year, in Sprong's role. Do you think he could succeed there today? Of course not. That's the point.

 

[Peat]

I just don’t buy the argument the insiders are putting out there... too many rws ahead of him. I mean c’mon... Kessel never plays with Crosby and Rust has been a compete ghost. But that sounds better than saying the coach has never wanted this kid on his roster I suppose.

Watching rugby so can't make a proper reply to other posts but... are we sure its just on Sully that Sprong isn't being used on Sid's line? We know that Sid has a loud voice on who plays on his line. As you say, Kessel pretty much never plays with Crosby, and Sprong's more similar to Kessel than any of our other wings.

Which all goes back to JR being an idiot keeping him in the NHL after 9 games in his rookie year.

Has Rutherford made a bigger mistake here yet?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Except injuries will happen so what’s the harm in keeping him as the 13th forward even if he’s scratched because he’s not a fourth liner? They can send Riikola up and down to the A at will if they need a roster spot....it’s one thing if they can get an every day NHL player back for Sprong who can help the team more now, but that’s really unlikely...they don’t need another fourth liner and all Sprong will net otherwise is a pick or another struggling prospect...

Caps were in a similar situation with Vrana being waiver eligible last season and when he was being a HS and toiling on the fourth line, he was never openly put on the block like Sprong has been.

Sprong is not wanted on this roster. Let’s all not act dense.

Again, ask Cole, Reaves, DP, ETC how that goes.

Watching rugby so can't make a proper reply to other posts but... are we sure its just on Sully that Sprong isn't being used on Sid's line? We know that Sid has a loud voice on who plays on his line. As you say, Kessel pretty much never plays with Crosby, and Sprong's more similar to Kessel than any of our other wings.

Cole brought that possibility up, but Crosby seemed to be quite engaged playing with him and Simon last season. And again, Sullivan is the coach and just like I keep saying, he should play guys where he feels is best, not by what the stars prefer.

 

[Coastal Kev]

I'd like to get Virtanen and Tanev from the canucks for a package of Maatta and Sprong and likely a pick and another prospect.

I think Virtanen slots better with Sid and Jake and Tanev adds the def dman on the right side.

Is Virtanen playing on the 4th line? If no, then why are we trading Sprong?

 

[Empoleon8771]

There’s a spot there if Sullivan wanted to find it. Let’s not kid ourselves.

They have lost five in a row and have only a couple ES goal during the losing streak. Sullivan’s solution is to keep throwing Rust there.

Even if I hadn’t been told how he felt about Sprong, it’s common sense what’s going on now.

Oh yeah, it's completely because of Sullivan's stubbornness. When I say they "don't have a spot for him", I really mean "Sullivan thinks they don't have a spot for him because he doesn't like him". With Sullivan as the coach, they don't have a spot for him in a position he needs to be in to succeed. At some point, I think you have to seriously ask if Sullivan pushing this many players off the team is a problem. He almost pushed Kessel off the team and he has pushed Sprong and Cole off the team.

I don't get why some Penguins fans try to paint Sprong as being bad all of a sudden. Is it just a circle-jerk to counter the fans who complained about Sprong not being up in the past? Any amount of logic could tell you that Sprong is struggling because of how horribly Sullivan has misused him so far, since he's not a player who can succeed with bad linemates. But people seem to just want to jump on the "Sprong is bad" bandwagon.