Salary Cap: Salary Cap 2015: Opinions are like Kunitz on the 1st line - Maybe you shouldn't

[plaidchuck]

Clearly what they need is the return of the moustache boy and wiffle ball competitions.

I actually respect Johnston more by hearing this. Whereas Bylsma was the EJ groomed players coach, MJ came in and didn't baby them and let the locker room sort itself out. Maybe it ruffled some feathers which can be good when a team is in a culture rut.

 

[cajal]

I wasn't encouraged by MJ last year, but let's see where the team chemistry/strategies/lines are after a month or so. Even though there are precedents about his vet player usage and the rest, who knows.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

 

[Riptide]

I wasn't encouraged by MJ last year, but let's see where the team chemistry/strategies/lines are after a month or so. Even though there are precedents about his vet player usage and the rest, who knows.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Oh I'd still can him if it was an option and hire Martin, but we have him, and odds are that's not something that is really being considered... so lets give him a chance. Last season was his first, and considering how different he was from DB, I could easily see things taking a bit longer to hash out between him and the players. And I'm certain he had some learning curves.

 

[Darth Vitale]

How many times did the Pens play the Rangers last year? How many games did the Rangers play last year?

How does a professional coach not know about & prepare for the speed of the Rangers?

I think it says more about lovejoy that the coach....the only guy he ever came down hard on was himself.

Yes to both. This is just Lovejoy being Lovejoy. He's a swell guy who supports everyone at all costs. Good ole Benny. Despres would never have the presence of mind... too busy eating doughnuts.

There is no real excuse for Johnston, at that point in the season, to be caught unaware of the Rangers' speed on the LW or any other aspect of their game. It's great he's willing to change and has Plan B ready, but only if Plan B isn't stuff like playing a guy at a position he hasn't played his whole career and isn't comfortable or accomplished at that position.

See also: Dan Bylsma.

 

[WayneSid9987]

I don't mind MJ or Agnew.
MJ is trying to put his stamp on this team and it's gonna take time.
Especially if you're always playing with key injuries.

I do think that his leash will shorten up some cuz he's gotten what he's wanted. 4 scoring lines is his mantra and he's got it. If the offense doesn't come, he's in trouble.

I dunno if he's the right coach for this team.
We'll have a better read on that this year.

 

[steveg]

Don't know. After glossing over 2 pages of people *****ing about it I can't be bothered.

Man, I don't know how you do it!

I try to read every post of the threads that I'm interested in, and no way can I keep up. Let alone having to actually MODERATE! I have no idea how you manage -- it's a full-time job!

Steve

 

[radapex]

Yes to both. This is just Lovejoy being Lovejoy. He's a swell guy who supports everyone at all costs. Good ole Benny. Despres would never have the presence of mind... too busy eating doughnuts.

There is no real excuse for Johnston, at that point in the season, to be caught unaware of the Rangers' speed on the LW or any other aspect of their game. It's great he's willing to change and has Plan B ready, but only if Plan B isn't stuff like playing a guy at a position he hasn't played his whole career and isn't comfortable or accomplished at that position.

See also: Dan Bylsma.

Here's how I look at the Rangers series. The Pens were grossly outmatched. They lost the series 4-1... but every loss was by a score of 2-1 and two were in OT. Johnston coached as well as you could ask in that series, and out-coached Vigneault (IMO). I was still indifferent on him up to that point, but the way he coached that series has me somewhat optimistic.

 

[Riptide]

Man, I don't know how you do it!

I try to read every post of the threads that I'm interested in, and no way can I keep up. Let alone having to actually MODERATE! I have no idea how you manage -- it's a full-time job!

Steve

I have a really nice job that usually provides me with a lot of free time. But man the last few pages... I would read a post just long enough to see that someone was still *****ing about the same crap then skip to the next one.

 

[steveg]

I have a really nice job that usually provides me with a lot of free time. But man the last few pages... I would read a post just long enough to see that someone was still *****ing about the same crap then skip to the next one.

LOL! I don't envy your role as Moderator at all. Through the summer, it's not quite as bad (in terms of number of posts to have to read), but here recently? WOW!

Thanks for doing it, though...I can't imagine this place if you guys weren't keeping it civil...

(And I really did not intend to create any problems myself, in a couple of recent posts...hope I kept it quite a distance from "crossing any lines")

 

[cygnus47]

Here's how I look at the Rangers series. The Pens were grossly outmatched. They lost the series 4-1... but every loss was by a score of 2-1 and two were in OT. Johnston coached as well as you could ask in that series, and out-coached Vigneault (IMO). I was still indifferent on him up to that point, but the way he coached that series has me somewhat optimistic.

We played boring, trap and collapse around the net hockey though. It was a good decision because it kept the scores close, but we were handily outplayed all series and it made it impossible to generate offence outside of broken plays and powerplays. If we'd played the game we have to play to actually win a series, we would have been losing 6-3, 5-2 each game. We were dampening the scores, not actually getting close to winning.

 

[tom_servo]

I probably should let this die and someone may have already made this point, but Kunitz's stats do not fit the data. His two best point production seasons were his age 33 and age 34 seasons. His age 35 was his worst, so now we have the precipitous decline trend. But, his possession stats suggest that he could bounce back (cue lazy entitled "it's not about points" posts).

That's fair. Kunitz did far exceed projections in those years. I sometimes forget just how old he is. But, at this age, his last ~120 games carry much more weight than those prior ~240. It's enough to chart a steep decline, which indeed happened later for him than for others. But Bombulie writes like it hasn't even happened yet (...I defended this article earlier because I didn't interpret it as one-note Penguins boosting, and still don't).

I'd say there's no hope of Kunitz recovering his old form. Ordinarily, a 36-year old wouldn't even be asked to, but we're talking about a guy who's currently on the top line. I imagine bounce-back years at this age are extremely hard to come by, but I have no data for that. A realistic improvement on his last year won't be a "bounce-back," though. It will be a adjustment of role and limiting of mistakes. Competency, not stardom.

 

[Riptide]

We played boring, trap and collapse around the net hockey though. It was a good decision because it kept the scores close, but we were handily outplayed all series and it made it impossible to generate offence outside of broken plays and powerplays. If we'd played the game we have to play to actually win a series, we would have been losing 6-3, 5-2 each game. We were dampening the scores, not actually getting close to winning.

Some of the games, I agree completely. But two games went to OT. Those we had a real chance at winning.

 

[Shaftception]

Here's how I look at the Rangers series. The Pens were grossly outmatched. They lost the series 4-1... but every loss was by a score of 2-1 and two were in OT. Johnston coached as well as you could ask in that series, and out-coached Vigneault (IMO). I was still indifferent on him up to that point, but the way he coached that series has me somewhat optimistic.

Here's how you actually should look at that series because it's closer to the truth. They were indeed grossly outmatched, as was evident by the possession and shot generation advantage in favor of the rangers for the majority of the series. Highlighting the goal differential in each of the losses without context is the biggest fallacy to come out of that series when attempting to take something positive away from it, which there wasn't much.

For the most part, the rangers played a much faster, counter-attacking style during the regular season compared to what they displayed in the playoff series against the pens. The two primary reasons for this were simple. Johnston (in what was in no way a stroke of coaching genius, how to trap is coaching 101) altered his system to about as conservative a trap as possible after the injuries to the majority of their competent puck-moving defensemen (because his junior tier system completely relies on these types of players to even work), which Vigneault cleverly countered by taking what the pens were giving them without overextending, resigning to play as safe as Johnston had the pens playing while still guaranteeing they would eventually grind out enough wins to move on because of their superior speed and physicality, no matter how close the final boxscores were.

A crippling flaw in the pens roster/Johnston's system was obvious for most of the year actually, against the rangers, isles and capitals especially, which contributed in large part to their pathetic divisional record.

 

[deakka]

I really hope we either vall someone up, make a trade, or dunster dive in the waivers market for a forward.

What a waste keeping Sprong to have him play with. ...... Farnham. ...

 

[Riptide]

Here's how you actually should look at that series because it's closer to the truth. They were indeed grossly outmatched, as was evident by the possession and shot generation advantage in favor of the rangers for the majority of the series. Highlighting the goal differential in each of the losses without context is the biggest fallacy to come out of that series when attempting to take something positive away from it, which there wasn't much.

For the most part, the rangers played a much faster, counter-attacking style during the regular season compared to what they displayed in the playoff series against the pens. The two primary reasons for this were simple. Johnston (in what was in no way a stroke of coaching genius, how to trap is coaching 101) altered his system to about as conservative a trap as possible after the injuries to the majority of their competent puck-moving defensemen (because his junior tier system completely relies on these types of players to even work), which Vigneault cleverly countered by taking what the pens were giving them without overextending, resigning to play as safe as Johnston had the pens playing while still guaranteeing they would eventually grind out enough wins to move on because of their superior speed and physicality, no matter how close the final boxscores were.

A crippling flaw in the pens roster/Johnston's system was obvious for most of the year actually, against the rangers, isles and capitals especially, which contributed in large part to their pathetic divisional record.

You forgot to mention depth, skill and health. IF Pittsburgh had been healthy, it would have been an interesting series. Not one I'd bet on as Pittsburgh would still have had a tough time, but with Malkin, Hornqvist and Perron all banged up and missing 3 of our best D, AV didn't have to really push harder.

 

[canadianguy77]

You forgot to mention depth, skill and health. IF Pittsburgh had been healthy, it would have been an interesting series. Not one I'd bet on as Pittsburgh would still have had a tough time, but with Malkin, Hornqvist and Perron all banged up and missing 3 of our best D, AV didn't have to really push harder.

It would have been, for sure. I doubt we would have played a trapping style of game, and the scores would have been much more inflated, but it would have been more interesting.

This team has had trouble going into battles along the walls and coming out with the puck. To me, it's been the achilles heel of the team for a number of years. (to go along with coaching and lineup decisions) It was especially evident last season. I'm looking forward to see if that changes this season with the new personnel.

 

[cajal]

Oh I'd still can him if it was an option and hire Martin, but we have him, and odds are that's not something that is really being considered... so lets give him a chance. Last season was his first, and considering how different he was from DB, I could easily see things taking a bit longer to hash out between him and the players. And I'm certain he had some learning curves.

I agree that he's learning, but he should be on a very short leash this year. I hope he figures it out, because the type of hockey he espouses is the type I like to watch.

If the Pens are really playing the "MJ way", it will be interesting to see how they match up with the highly-systematized defensive play of most of the teams in the league. They seemed to do well at the beginning of last season, so I think there is hope.

 

[Shaftception]

You forgot to mention depth, skill and health. IF Pittsburgh had been healthy, it would have been an interesting series. Not one I'd bet on as Pittsburgh would still have had a tough time, but with Malkin, Hornqvist and Perron all banged up and missing 3 of our best D, AV didn't have to really push harder.

Well yes that goes into the superior speed and physicality angle. Due in small part to the injuries to the pens yes, but largely because the rangers simply had more of it throughout their lineup, they did all year, which allowed them to beat the pens into corners to retrieve loose pucks (where johnston's system seems to have a clear weakness considering their issues behind their goal line in many instances during the season) or to outmuscle them in front of the net with regularity.

Vigneault could have played right into Johnston's last resort trap by sticking to their normal style (just as many of the Bylsma teams had done against teams trapping to counter the stretch pass) and risk costly turnovers and unnecessary scoring opportunities that the pens depleted roster proved they were unable to generate on their own. Smartly he chose not to because they had the superior roster as they had demonstrated in most of their matchups during the year and played it safe, which proved to be just as efficient as they still owned possession for large portions of the series and finished it off in a quick five games. So no he didn't have to push harder you're right, but it was smart that he chose not to in the first place, unlike lesser coaches have before or might have in his place.

Though I disagree that the series would have been much different results wise had the pens been fully healthy (especially considering they never are, ifs and buts and all), as they already were for the most part (sans maata and dupuis) during most of their regular season matchups against the metro and they didn't fair any better then either.

This team has had trouble going into battles along the walls and coming out with the puck. To me, it's been the achilles heel of the team for a number of years.

It certainly was at least this past season, was evident the very first game of the season against the ducks with their inability to defend plays originating from behind their net. Whether this year's roster is quick enough to beat the forecheck to those pucks before they're outmuscled like usual to the crease or not, or whether Johnston adapted his system to somehow cover up for this weakness is left to be seen.

 

[plaidchuck]

Save us barry trotz, you're our only hope.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

How many times did the Pens play the Rangers last year? How many games did the Rangers play last year?

How does a professional coach not know about & prepare for the speed of the Rangers?

Preparing for and being able to stop it are two completely different things. Everyone on the planet know Tom Brady is great and Gronk is great, but please try and stop it.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Assuming health (insert joke here) this season should tell us a whole lot about Johnston. You cant argue he doesn't have the horses this year...

Roster differences from last years NYR series to a full health theoretical roster this year...

Sutter
Comeau
Downie
Spaling
Winnik
Lapierre
Wilson
Chorney
Martin

to

Bonino
Fehr
Cullen
Dupuis
Kessel
Plotnikov
Sprong
Letang
Maata
Clendening?

No excuses MJ.

 

[gopens66]

We played boring, trap and collapse around the net hockey though. It was a good decision because it kept the scores close, but we were handily outplayed all series and it made it impossible to generate offence outside of broken plays and powerplays. If we'd played the game we have to play to actually win a series, we would have been losing 6-3, 5-2 each game. We were dampening the scores, not actually getting close to winning.

It may be boring, but it is good coaching. He was missing some key components to his team. I'm a head coach for a varsity soccer team. If I'm playing a team that outclasses my players skill wise or athletically, I'm going to play a formation with more bodies in the midfield in an attempt to disrupt their possession game. We keep it ugly and rely on counter-punching and set corner plays. They may outclass us and have better possession time, but it gives us a chance to win.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Sutter
Comeau
Downie
Spaling
Winnik
Lapierre
Wilson
Chorney
Martin

to

Bonino
Fehr
Cullen
Dupuis
Kessel
Plotnikov
Sprong
Letang
Maata
Clendening?

No excuses MJ.

Yeah. There are certainly things that I have major reservations about this season. But I think it's pretty obvious that the lineup at forward should be much, much stronger. At least on paper. And despite their struggles in preseason... I have some faith that the defense can figure things out and gel as the year goes along. I mean... elements of it, at least.

No more Adams... no more Spaling... and no more Sutter. That last one is a big one, for me. Watching Sutter for tons of minutes every night was killing my love for the game. Especially those in which coach decided that he was a better center than Malkin.

Thanks, JR. For real. Glad you traded that goober twice.

 

[SEALBound]

Clearly what they need is the return of the moustache boy and wiffle ball competitions.

I actually respect Johnston more by hearing this. Whereas Bylsma was the EJ groomed players coach, MJ came in and didn't baby them and let the locker room sort itself out. Maybe it ruffled some feathers which can be good when a team is in a culture rut.

Given the state of the team last year in the Feb/March time frame, I would have nuked that locker room with a big message trade. Think Kunitz or Dupuis and more importantly Scuds or Adams. I hate the "don't disturb the room" BS we hear about.

Assuming health (insert joke here) this season should tell us a whole lot about Johnston. You cant argue he doesn't have the horses this year...

Roster differences from last years NYR series to a full health theoretical roster this year...

Sutter
Comeau
Downie
Spaling
Winnik
Lapierre
Wilson
Chorney
Martin

to

Bonino
Fehr
Cullen
Dupuis
Kessel
Plotnikov
Sprong
Letang
Maata
Clendening?

No excuses MJ.

Boy does that feel good to look at. Think about the bottom 6 Shero made us have for years...jeez we have a good looking roster sans Kunitz, Dupuis, Scuderi, Lovejoy.

ETA: Just thinking, JR is the man for trading away BOTH Spaling and Sutter. Two of the most vanilla non spectacular players ever...at high cap hits relative to their production/worth. Wow...good on JR. Just, good on him!

Yeah. There are certainly things that I have major reservations about this season. But I think it's pretty obvious that the lineup at forward should be much, much stronger. At least on paper. And despite their struggles in preseason... I have some faith that the defense can figure things out and gel as the year goes along. I mean... elements of it, at least.

No more Adams... no more Spaling... and no more Sutter. That's last one is a big one, for me. Watching Sutter for tons of minutes every night was killing my love for the game. Especially those in which coach decided that he was a better center than Malkin.

Thanks, JR. For real. Glad you traded that goober twice.

He had his bright spots but you knew he would be asking 4-5mil and that just wasn't going to be in the cards. Thank god. I was worried about a $4mil/5yr contract. More importantly was the addition of Fehr and Plotnikov. Those are two tremendous depth guys. Moves like that are what we have been missing for awhile. Glad we were able to cash in on a KHL talent too. Panarin would have been money to have right now...but you can't have it all I guess. Just think:

Perron-Sid-Kessel
Panarin-Malkin-Hornqvist
Plotnikov-Bonino-Bennett
Kunitz-Fehr-Dupuis-Cullen

Best top 6 and top 12 in the league. Hands down. Dang.

 

[Woodrow]

Forward group is good, it is the defense group that is the real question mark of course. If Maatta or Letang go down with an injury (and they don't have a good record of staying healthy) it could get real ugly. Hopefully one or two of the other dmen really step up big time.