Post-Game Talk: Sabres def. Canucks - 5-2 (Horvat, Dowling)

[logan5]

This is the first real stinker of a game. Just way to early to start panicking. If we can get a win and a point in the next two, then that’s ok for a 6 game road trip to start the season with all these new guys.

 

[F A N]

Who hired Trotz? Was it Garth Snow?

You can't separate management from the equation, although I completely understand the desire to do so. As long as Benning is in charge, he is the one picking the next coach and setting the overall direction. Do you trust Benning to find a good coach? I wouldn't trust Benning to find water if we were stranded in a boat in the middle of the ocean.

NYI is a perfect example: Hire a new President in Lou Lam and give him total control. He fired the GM and coach and hired Trotz 2 weeks later. He sets the direction from the top down.

I've been beating this drum for like 3 years now. The Canucks have a freaking vacant PHO position. It is the most obvious thing in the world to hire someone competent in that role and give them total control over what to do with Benning/Green.

Until Benning is out, changing coaches is re-arranging deck chairs.

Before the Canucks hired Willie they wanted to hire Trotz. This was widely reported.

 

[F A N]

I missed the Detroit game. Who was being challenged to fights and turned them down?

OEL and Garland?

 

[Vector]

Before the Canucks hired Willie they wanted to hire Trotz. This was widely reported.

Never heard of this but a quick google search show's it's true.

"In 2014, he was on the Canucks’ radar to replace John Tortorella after agreeing to part ways following 15 years with the Nashville Predators, who were entering a rebuilding phase.

But while intrigued by interest on the West Coast, Trotz chose to remain loyal to the Washington organization because it provided him with his first professional coaching position as an assistant with the Baltimore Skipjacks. And in his fourth season running an American Hockey League bench, he guided the Portland (Maine) Pirates to a Calder Cup championship in 1994. Ironically, he couldn’t reach contract terms after the 2018 Stanley Cup triumph and was quickly snapped up by the Islanders."

 

[MS]

pAcK iT uP. wE'rE aLmOsT 5% oF tHe wAy tHrOuGh tHe yEaR aNd wE aRe uNdEr 500.

This was a frustrating game.

The posters who f***ing obsess over a single quote that was given to the media are hilarious.

First of all, noticing that the majority of your team's players failed to register a hit or a shot block is relevant. You aren't Jonah Hill in Moneyball courageously fighting against the old dinosaur scouts.

If a single player doesn't register either of those for a game, it doesn't mean he didn't play well. If 50% of your team failed to register either, then you played soft as a f***ing grape. Full stop.

To be honest though, the team is still gelling and guys are still getting comfortable.

Boeser had a tap-in (for him) that he managed to deflect out of the rink, Miller has been giving the puck away a lot. If our stars are looking so out of sync in 10 games, I start to worry. 4 games in with like 9 new players, I'm giving it time because these are human beings and it takes time to figure each other out and find your own game.

Yeah, nope nope nope. More dinosaur thinking.

Hits and blocks are generally *bad* stats that mean you're playing poorly. You can only record a hit or block if you don't have the puck.

You know how we outplayed/outshot Detroit in the previous game? The hits/blocks in that game were 34-18 for Detroit. Because we had the puck more than they did. And it was like a 4:1 ratio in the 3rd period where we dominated - we had 1 hit in the 3rd period because we had the puck the whole freaking time. We had more blocked shots/hits combined than Buffalo last night.

It's a completely irrelevant statistic. And people are choked to see the team get dominated by a bad team and the coach apparently has no idea why and is focusing on that irrelevant statistic. It's f***ing bonkers. The coach apparently has no problem with the fact that we're getting territorially dominated and just wants to see more guys throwing themselves in front of shots while we're being territorially dominated.

You know why we lost?

Because our system f***ing sucks. We play terrible hockey at ES, and have consistently bled shots and chances and been outplayed at ES a majority of games for the past 3 years. Our consistent game plan appears to be to get caved in at ES and hope that Vezina-level goaltending and some PP scoring can save our asses. With league-average goaltending we would have been bottom-5 in the NHL for all of the past 3 years. What we're doing hasn't worked and isn't working and the coaching staff appears incapable of setting up a system and structure that can generate positive play and success.

Like, the only 2 actually good periods of hockey we've played in 4 games this year have been the 3rd periods against Detroit and Edmonton when we were chasing the lead and actually had to change what we were doing and try to attack and push the play.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

i'm sure i'm not the only to say it in this thread, but for so long the entire league has figured out our PP.

they basically auto-sag off on miller on the left side and just let him hold the puck because he's the least creative player on the unit and it keeps the puck out of petey and hughes' hands (or in last night's case, OEL's).

i just don't get why miller doesn't center the second unit and we put boeser on the left side. he has the advantage of being a right hand shot you have to respect, he's at least a better decision-maker than miller at that position, and now that we have OEL that gives us four shooting threats in prime shooting positions.

 

[Timmer44]

I voted that they would lose, but not because they are bad, it's because by all reports they were "bonding" on the road in Detroit. Apparently went to the Lions game, and probably got after it. I expect a big bounce back game on Thursday.

 

[mathonwy]

i think it’s naive to believe that changing the coach will change anything. The entire organization needs to be turned upside down before we’ll see any different results.

Well.

I did just fall off the turnip truck.

 

[mathonwy]

I voted that they would lose, but not because they are bad, it's because by all reports they were "bonding" on the road in Detroit. Apparently went to the Lions game, and probably got after it. I expect a big bounce back game on Thursday.

I didn’t watch the game but sounds like the team was hungover playing a game versus an opponent that the owner was probably not watching.

 

[Cheeks Clapinski]

I think the most disappointing thing so far is the promised high octane offense hasn't really materialized so far. Especially considering the teams we have been playing against. Wasn't that how this team was advertised? That we would be able to outscore our deficiencies on the defensive end?

 

[Diversification]

During the broadcast last night. Hirsch related that Brad Shaw’s first impression of the team was that defensive structure needed an overhaul.

if it’s Shaw’s work that led to small improvements on defense we saw in the first 3 games, it’s little wonder that we weren’t able to pull ourselves out of a tailspin mid-game. That would require the Head Coach to have a complete understanding of the new system and have immediate insight as to how to self correct.

There were those of you who were telling yourselves that it was going to be okay because Shaw would be able to fix the coverage issues. But in a game like last night, you can see the downsides to deferring to an Assistant Coach.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Rewatched just the 3rd, the canucks attempt one single hit. Myers on the pk.
Every loose puck, race, battle is just a fly by. Not going to win many games with the opponent not even worried about getting hit or pushed off the puck. Sabres didn't even brace for a hit in the corners, just grabbed the puck and pushed ahead or skated away.

 

[Draino]

Yeah, nope nope nope. More dinosaur thinking.

Hits and blocks are generally *bad* stats that mean you're playing poorly. You can only record a hit or block if you don't have the puck.

You know how we outplayed/outshot Detroit in the previous game? The hits/blocks in that game were 34-18 for Detroit. Because we had the puck more than they did. And it was like a 4:1 ratio in the 3rd period where we dominated - we had 1 hit in the 3rd period because we had the puck the whole freaking time. We had more blocked shots/hits combined than Buffalo last night.

It's a completely irrelevant statistic. And people are choked to see the team get dominated by a bad team and the coach apparently has no idea why and is focusing on that irrelevant statistic. It's f***ing bonkers. The coach apparently has no problem with the fact that we're getting territorially dominated and just wants to see more guys throwing themselves in front of shots while we're being territorially dominated.

You know why we lost?

Because our system f***ing sucks. We play terrible hockey at ES, and have consistently bled shots and chances and been outplayed at ES a majority of games for the past 3 years. Our consistent game plan appears to be to get caved in at ES and hope that Vezina-level goaltending and some PP scoring can save our asses. With league-average goaltending we would have been bottom-5 in the NHL for all of the past 3 years. What we're doing hasn't worked and isn't working and the coaching staff appears incapable of setting up a system and structure that can generate positive play and success.

Like, the only 2 actually good periods of hockey we've played in 4 games this year have been the 3rd periods against Detroit and Edmonton when we were chasing the lead and actually had to change what we were doing and try to attack and push the play.

Im curious to know your take on the defensive system. The way I see it , they are far too passive in the d zone, basically collapsing all the time and hoping to eliminate the slot.

 

[krutovsdonut]

I missed the Detroit game. Who was being challenged to fights and turned them down?

oel was challenged. there was something weird going on. detroit acting like they had a beef over something i did not see. drance has a tweet about it.

 

[racerjoe]

pAcK iT uP. wE'rE aLmOsT 5% oF tHe wAy tHrOuGh tHe yEaR aNd wE aRe uNdEr 500.

This was a frustrating game.

The posters who f***ing obsess over a single quote that was given to the media are hilarious.

First of all, noticing that the majority of your team's players failed to register a hit or a shot block is relevant. You aren't Jonah Hill in Moneyball courageously fighting against the old dinosaur scouts.

If a single player doesn't register either of those for a game, it doesn't mean he didn't play well. If 50% of your team failed to register either, then you played soft as a f***ing grape. Full stop.

To be honest though, the team is still gelling and guys are still getting comfortable.

Boeser had a tap-in (for him) that he managed to deflect out of the rink, Miller has been giving the puck away a lot. If our stars are looking so out of sync in 10 games, I start to worry. 4 games in with like 9 new players, I'm giving it time because these are human beings and it takes time to figure each other out and find your own game.

Is it early to be panicked? Maybe but it is clearly also too early for all those new threads on how great the defense/OEL/team looks.

 

[AppleHoneySauce]

oel was challenged. there was something weird going on. detroit acting like they had a beef over something i did not see. drance has a tweet about it.

Oel speared Moritz Seider in the nuts and maybe some other beef from arizona.

 

[MS]

Im curious to know your take on the defensive system. The way I see it , they are far too passive in the d zone, basically collapsing all the time and hoping to eliminate the slot.

I ... don't really know what they're trying to do. Like you say, the forwards seem very passive and appear to be trying to clog the middle of the ice and force the play to the outside while conceding quite a bit of possession. But the D (especially Myers and Hughes) also seems to be very activated and play very high, and concede a lot of odd-man rushes the other way. So we weirdly seem to play very conservatively but also concede a lot of high-danger rush chances.

That said, I'm not a coaching/systems expert.

We've been outshot something like 70% of the time over the past couple years. It's crazy.

 

[MS]

oel was challenged. there was something weird going on. detroit acting like they had a beef over something i did not see. drance has a tweet about it.

I suspect that the whole weirdness of Detroit's behavior was a fallout from the previous game where their star player was suspended for defending himself. Guessing they had a big team focus on making a point of standing up for each other after that and were making mountains out of molehills to that effect.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Oel speared Moritz Seider in the nuts and maybe some other beef from arizona.

pretty sure seider got speared in a follow up scrum a while after the one where oel got challenged.

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

At 1-2-1 , I'm not about to panic yet...There were good things to like in the first 3 games, but yesterdays game was bordering on a no-show (especially from the marquee forwards who are supposed to demonstrate leadership and effort).

Looks like Green put the team through a gruelling skate in practice today..No Hughes,.. thats a concern.

 

[Grantham]

The blocked shot comment by Green was dumb and showed outdated thinking.

But to not have the puck majority of the time and still barely have any hits? That is a problem. But you had Gadjovich and Mac that you guys waved, and now you wonder why this team of wusses won't hit or block shots?

Green, Benning, and Aqualini deserve each other.

 

[Zippgunn]

Tired of Green. Want him fired. Team has all kinds of problems, but he's the biggest, easiest-to-solve of all the problems right now. Surely there has to be a coach out there that can do more with this lineup than this clown who keeps trying to shove square pegs into round holes over and over and over and over again.

Yes but will they deign to sign with Vancouver? There's the rub...

 

[Billy Kvcmu]

Yes but will they deign to sign with Vancouver? There's the rub...

There’s only 32 head coach jobs in the nhl
People will sign when there a spot open

 

[racerjoe]

Who hired Trotz? Was it Garth Snow?

You can't separate management from the equation, although I completely understand the desire to do so. As long as Benning is in charge, he is the one picking the next coach and setting the overall direction. Do you trust Benning to find a good coach? I wouldn't trust Benning to find water if we were stranded in a boat in the middle of the ocean.

NYI is a perfect example: Hire a new President in Lou Lam and give him total control. He fired the GM and coach and hired Trotz 2 weeks later. He sets the direction from the top down.

I've been beating this drum for like 3 years now. The Canucks have a freaking vacant PHO position. It is the most obvious thing in the world to hire someone competent in that role and give them total control over what to do with Benning/Green.

Until Benning is out, changing coaches is re-arranging deck chairs.

 

[Zippgunn]

There’s only 32 head coach jobs in the nhl
People will sign when there a spot open

Oh sure "people" will. Will any decent NHL coaches sign here, that's my question...