Post-Game Talk: Ryan Poehling scores a hat trick and the shootout winner in his debut! Habs win 6-5 vs TML.

[sandysan]

Ovechkin was #1 overall. They traded away veterans and had multiple 1st and 2nd round picks 5 years in a row, including Backstrom #4 overall and Alzner #5 overall.

How long ago was that? This was their first chance at the cup since getting ovechkin?

So as long a a team sucked at some point in the past and gets high draft picks, then anytime they win after that 10, 15 years it's becuase of the tank? Those 10 years of getting beat and getting better don't count?

 

[sandysan]

Not good at all..... And it hasn't worked out for multiple teams, but that's not the argument. The argument is that high picks are a pre-requisite for sustained success, but not a guarantee.

Pre requisite?
Boston says hi
( yes yes we all know about Seguin who they shipped)

 

[sandysan]

[QUOTE="sandysan, post: 159150201, member: 142469"

The caps won the cup LAST year and they didnt tank. the bruins, didnt tank when they won. the other teams who did, also might have been bad a really long time ago and lucked into getting generational talent that ISNT going to come by every year ( hence generational). is it really your plan to keep sucking until we get a generational talent ? no matter how long it takes ?

Actually yeah, that is my plan. In combination with good trading, development and UFA pickups. It'll take a lot less time than your non plan.[/QUOTE]
It's not an non plan, its a plan that you control. Not chance.

 

[sandysan]

What's also idiocy is claiming that any random NHL team has a 1/31 chance to win the Cup. If all teams were identical blue buttons in a bag, sure those odds are accurate.

Why don't you take into account cap spending vs. floor spending, quality of management, drafting skill, development, coaching, revenues... ad nauseam?

You don't think that teams can vastly improve their own chances with intelligence and skillful management?

That you can't win it every season is true. That you can't substantially improve your own chances is absolute folly.

Cap spending ensures parity, I am not sure if it's all 31 ( soon to be 32) teams that have a chance but it's a lot more than sans cap.

You can improve your chances by looking at what you did, what worked what didn't. Do more of the former, less of the latter. Not relying on intentionally sucking and hoping that a player you draft will fill all the holes you made by shipping out people who could contribute but they were too detrimental to the race to the bottom.

 

[26Mats]

How long ago was that? This was their first chance at the cup since getting ovechkin?

So as long a a team sucked at some point in the past and gets high draft picks, then anytime they win after that 10, 15 years it's becuase of the tank? Those 10 years of getting beat and getting better don't count?

Don't know what you're saying. Ovechkin was the MVP. The Bruins are the only team in the last 10 years to win a cup without having a #1 or #2 overall pick as a key contributor, as well as many other lottery picks. It's just a fact. Facts are facts. And it's 2 out of every 3 cups since 2000 (the only other exceptions being Detroit, New Jersey, and Anaheim). Anaheim got their #2 Overall pick, Pronger, by trade, not by sucking and drafting him.

 

[groovejuice]

Cap spending ensures parity, I am not sure if it's all 31 ( soon to be 32) teams that have a chance but it's a lot more than sans cap.

You can improve your chances by looking at what you did, what worked what didn't. Do more of the former, less of the latter. Not relying on intentionally sucking and hoping that a player you draft will fill all the holes you made by shipping out people who could contribute but they were too detrimental to the race to the bottom.

Sure, but not all teams are created equal. Teams don't spend to the cap mostly because they can't afford to. Parity in practise is a fiction, an illusion. The price of a hotdog and beer at the BC will get you prime tickets in some markets, and those markets don't have the same opportunities to sign top UFAs. It's not even close to an even playing field.

 

[JianYang]

Pre requisite?
Boston says hi
( yes yes we all know about Seguin who they shipped)

It depends what frame of time you want to accept for your snapshot. 2011 is not super relevant if you compare the type of game that they played, and the way the rules are enforced now.

Skill players are actually allowed to do their job now, and there is much less tolerance for the way the bruins were doing it back then. You put those Canucks and bruins in today's enforcement, and we are talking about a different outcome.

It just increases the emphasis even more on those high picks these days.

 

[sandysan]

Sure, but not all teams are created equal. Teams don't spend to the cap mostly because they can't afford to. Parity in practise is a fiction, an illusion. The price of a hotdog and beer at the BC will get you prime tickets in some markets, and those markets don't have the same opportunities to sign top UFAs. It's not even close to an even playing field.

So the alternative is that the leafs crush everyone under their well heeled boot?

Yeah that sounds peachy.

As we had 10 million in space lamenting the cap for us this year seems a little, how do you say, disingenuous?

 

[sandysan]

It depends what frame of time you want to accept for your snapshot. 2011 is not super relevant if you compare the type of game that they played, and the way the rules are enforced now.

Skill players are actually allowed to do their job now, and there is much less tolerance for the way the bruins were doing it back then. You put those Canucks and bruins in today's enforcement, and we are talking about a different outcome.

It just increases the emphasis even more on those high picks these days.

What days? These days? The caps didn't draft crap " these days". They were bad a long time ago had multiple kicks at the cat that went nowhere then added DEPTH ( not high picks) to get over the hump.

Yes they picked ovechkin, but that wasn't last week, last year or even last 5 years. Based on the "win of tank" model the caps should have moved holtby and ovechkin a long time ago right? For some shiny bauble?

 

[Kent Nilsson]

How long ago was that? This was their first chance at the cup since getting ovechkin?

So as long a a team sucked at some point in the past and gets high draft picks, then anytime they win after that 10, 15 years it's becuase of the tank? Those 10 years of getting beat and getting better don't count?

They tanked and got Ovechkin. It’s a pretty hard fact to distort. You like facts huh ? It doesnt un-become tanking when it doesnt fit your liking.

 

[groovejuice]

So the alternative is that the leafs crush everyone under their well heeled boot?

Yeah that sounds peachy.

As we had 10 million in space lamenting the cap for us this year seems a little, how do you say, disingenuous?

I'm not lamenting anything. Not sure how you got that from what I wrote. I'm telling it like it is. In the real world the odds of a Cup are very different than the 1/31 you claimed, because parity is a fairy tale.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Winning the cup is kind of the exception isn't it?

But why use à Strategy that Makes it even harder ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

Try to stick to your own definitions, do you think the Caps were losing on purpose? Our high picks don't count, but everyone else's do. Sounds pretty logical..

Players Never Do, organisation Do fromage time to time

 

[Baksfamous112]

you see Poupou or Suzuki calibre prospects traded in the list I made ?

cause the guy I responded to was pretty clear, could not make TDL upgrades without giving up one of the two. Impossible he believe...

(I know, some of those trades sucks, doesnt change the fact though)

Jesus I never said that. Also, do you really believe a Dzingle or M. Jo type of player would have made a difference? Lmao.

 

[Baksfamous112]

But why use à Strategy that Makes it even harder ?

Because tanking doesn’t automatically equal success in the future. Most of the franchise who REALLY tanked in the past decade are still stuck in mediocrity.

-Edmonton are a joke
- Buffalo have been tanking for ~7 years
- Arizona can’t get into the playoff
- Vancouver’s been tanking for ~5 years and they still aren’t even close
- Florida has been a joke forever
- Carolina is finally getting somewhere after Nearly a decade of tanking
- New Jersey has been a joke ever since they lost Brodeur

All the teams above did a FULL rebuild and they are stuck or have been stuck in mediocrity forever.

Teams like St-Louis, Tampa Bay, Boston, Toronto all did a retool/reset and it’s exactly what Montreal is doing. Be patient, we’re getting there and because of the excellent drafting in the past 3-4 years we’re getting there fast.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Because tanking doesn’t automatically equal success in the future. Most of the franchise who REALLY tanked in the past decade are still stuck in mediocrity.

-Edmonton are a joke
- Buffalo have been tanking for ~7 years
- Arizona can’t get into the playoff
- Vancouver’s been tanking for ~5 years and they still aren’t even close
- Florida has been a joke forever
- Carolina is finally getting somewhere after Nearly a decade of tanking
- New Jersey has been a joke ever since they lost Brodeur

All the teams above did a FULL rebuild and they are stuck or have been stuck in mediocrity forever.

Teams like St-Louis, Tampa Bay, Boston, Toronto all did a retool/reset and it’s exactly what Montreal is doing. Be patient, we’re getting there and because of the excellent drafting in the past 3-4 years we’re getting there fast.

San jose has been built entirely on good drafting, signing and trades too.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Jesus I never said that. Also, do you really believe a Dzingle or M. Jo type of player would have made a difference? Lmao.

We missed the po by how Many points ?

 

[ECWHSWI]

San jose has been built entirely on good drafting, signing and trades too.

Chances are big Joe Will retire without a cup ring...

 

[JianYang]

What days? These days? The caps didn't draft crap " these days". They were bad a long time ago had multiple kicks at the cat that went nowhere then added DEPTH ( not high picks) to get over the hump.

Yes they picked ovechkin, but that wasn't last week, last year or even last 5 years. Based on the "win of tank" model the caps should have moved holtby and ovechkin a long time ago right? For some shiny bauble?

I'm not sure why they would trade the greatest goal scorer of all time. The caps have been a contender for a long time that just failed to get over the hump, particularly when they ran into Pittsburgh.

We can talk about the depth guys that got them over the hump, but it starts with a guy like ovechkin. Otherwise, those depth guys don't matter.

The idea is to be a contender for a long period. Washington has had many disappointments, and high picks do not garauntee that you will not be disappointed, but the most we can ask for as fans is a team that can contend year in year out. If you have that, then no, you don't start trading away key peices for the future, because the future is now.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Chances are big Joe Will retire without a cup ring...

Probably.

But they have been a contender for over a decade, not quite good enough to win a cup without some good fortune, but close enough that they could have won if things went just a bit differently.

I think all we or any team can hope for is to be one of the top 5-6 teams heading into the playoffs. The rest is pretty much magic.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Probably.

But they have been a contender for over a decade, not quite good enough to win a cup without some good fortune, but close enough that they could have won if things went just a bit differently.

I think all we or any team can hope for is to be one of the top 5-6 teams heading into the playoffs. The rest is pretty much magic.

Top 5/6 team, not happening without star power

 

[Frank Drebin]

Top 5/6 team, not happening without star power

Agree. But can be built without top 5 picks
Jets, bruins, sharks, flames. We've had better picks than them over the past decade.

All better teams than ours.

 

[ECWHSWI]

Agree. But can be built without top 5 picks
Jets, bruins, sharks, flames. We've had better picks than them over the past decade.

All better teams than ours.

All cup winners...

 

[Hope Of Glory]

Because tanking doesn’t automatically equal success in the future. Most of the franchise who REALLY tanked in the past decade are still stuck in mediocrity.

-Edmonton are a joke
- Buffalo have been tanking for ~7 years
- Arizona can’t get into the playoff
- Vancouver’s been tanking for ~5 years and they still aren’t even close
- Florida has been a joke forever
- Carolina is finally getting somewhere after Nearly a decade of tanking
- New Jersey has been a joke ever since they lost Brodeur

All the teams above did a FULL rebuild and they are stuck or have been stuck in mediocrity forever.

Teams like St-Louis, Tampa Bay, Boston, Toronto all did a retool/reset and it’s exactly what Montreal is doing. Be patient, we’re getting there and because of the excellent drafting in the past 3-4 years we’re getting there fast.

Toronto and Tampa definitely did a rebuild. Their core (Stamkos, Hedman/Marner, Matthews, Nylander, Rielly) are mostly their own top 10 picks. They also made some other solide moves (Tavares, solid drafting in later rounds for Tampa like Kuch) which are essential for any rebuilding thing. It starts with high draft picks but there's much more to a good tank.

We've been ''retooling'' for the past 26 years and haven't even got close to the cup. Enough with hoping we get lucky, we got to put ourselves in a position to be lucky. 26 years of not choosing a direction made go nowhere. Of course.

 

[Frank Drebin]

All cup winners...

Just like the leafs,oilers,sabres....