Post-Game Talk: Ryan Poehling scores a hat trick and the shootout winner in his debut! Habs win 6-5 vs TML.

[WeThreeKings]

WTK, do us and yourself a favor and list the teams that went your route. Then go and count the number of years they tanked. You'll find the Habs since'05 have tanked more often than those teams. What with incompetent or depressed GMs, a terrible streak for our amateur scouting staff, our ducks were not lined up properly. It's not just a case of getting the high picks. Between 2008 & 2014 the only first rounder to amount to anything has been Chucky and look how well he turned out. I'm talking about first rounders. That's 7 years of nada. You don't think this team would be in a different place if those first rounders amounted to something. Since 2005 we've had 4 tanking picks. Hasn't helped one bit. Yes those teams that won the cup the last 10 years tanked a couple of times but they also did their homework in other areas of hockey management. It's not more tanking years that the Habs need. It's better scouting both amateur and pro, better development, better recruitment policies for UFAs and better trades.

No one ever said it's just lose, get high picks and win. There's smart management that goes around with that.. but the discussion is kind of focused around "tanking bad. being mediocre good." Which is more wrong than anything else.

Name of the game, simplified, is to find and acquire more talent than other teams.. and to get value back for players before you are paying them for past performance and not current/future production. Take Backes, for example, the Boston Bruins are paying him for what he did in St. Louis, he is not that player anymore, that's a sunk cost.. that if they had that money to allocate to a better talent, they would be a bigger contender than current. We are in that stage with Price and Weber, we aren't getting the value of their contracts anymore and they will likely be providing less value at the same cap hit by the time the young players we do have, have hit their prime. Thats where smart asset management would turn them into potential future value and try to use the young talent/picks gained from them to supplement the future core.

 

[JianYang]

The last cup winners that I think of that did it without tanking since 2000 are:

Boston 2011
Detroit 2008, 2002
Anaheim 2007
New Jersey 2003, 2000

So, roughly 1/3 of the cups were won without tanking (6 out of 19).

But only 1 in the last 10 cups - Boston in 2011.

I expect the next tankers who got generational talent to win the cup to be: Tampa, Toronto, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

I mean, you a make good points with most of those teams, but to play devils advocate, the enforcement of rules lately is giving an even bigger platform to the skill guys, as they have the room now to make a difference.

Which probably makes it even harder to win without multiple high selections.

 

[26Mats]

I mean, you a make good points with most of those teams, but to play devils advocate, the enforcement of rules lately is giving an even bigger platform to the skill guys, as they have the room now to make a difference.

Which probably makes it even harder to win without multiple high selections.

Looks that way.

We have to hope Domi, Kotkaniemi, and Poehling become really good.

 

[sandysan]

You sure cannot say the same of the Habs who are missing the PO for the 3rd time in 4 seasons...

nope. read again.

oooh three seasons ! how did we finish in the fourth ? what's that you say ? isnt that the boom to bust model you are advocarting ? oh that's right, getting all those points was a BAD thing, right now we should want to be less like the capitals and more like the senators for some potential ill defined possible gain in the future.

The caps won the cup LAST year and they didnt tank. the bruins, didnt tank when they won. the other teams who did, also might have been bad a really long time ago and lucked into getting generational talent that ISNT going to come by every year ( hence generational). is it really your plan to keep sucking until we get a generational talent ? no matter how long it takes ?

The oilers drafted more 1oa's in this time period than anyone, how's that working out for them ? they must be tops of the charts by now right ? no ? how can that be ?> they sucked soooo hard for soooo long and it didnt turn them around ? will we have to out suck the oil ? is that even possible ?

what about buffalo who dealt away a GREAT 2 way center because he was tired of the losing attitude. sure they got eichel and dhalin. man they are gonna be fierce in the playoffs this year !

what's that ?

you don't say !

 

[sandysan]

woah! I didnt thought you were that scared of failing.

i don't mind failing, not every trade is gooing to be a winner. some players you pick will underpreform, some players you pass on might tear it up.

what I am afraid of is failing by design, embracing a losing culture. that you are ok with this is the scariest part of all.

 

[HabsDood]

Way to scrap a cool thread with tanking discussions

 

[groovejuice]

and we are mediocre now because of the former, making bad decisions. So stop making them ( it looks like we are starting to do this, we actually have NHL centers AND prospects at that position when for a decade we did not. That this group hasnt won it all yet means we should ship them all out for the next shiny baubble with promise. if they dont get us there quick enough, dump them and do it again. become a laughing stock of the league to maybe one day, possibly, not be one but only temporarily because the season we DONT win it all, the baby goes out with the bathwater,

The idea that tanking is some panacea that will protect us from ourselves is idiocy

What's also idiocy is claiming that any random NHL team has a 1/31 chance to win the Cup. If all teams were identical blue buttons in a bag, sure those odds are accurate.

Why don't you take into account cap spending vs. floor spending, quality of management, drafting skill, development, coaching, revenues... ad nauseam?

You don't think that teams can vastly improve their own chances with intelligence and skillful management?

That you can't win it every season is true. That you can't substantially improve your own chances is absolute folly.

 

[ECWHSWI]

oooh three seasons ! how did we finish in the fourth ? what's that you say ? isnt that the boom to bust model you are advocarting ? oh that's right, getting all those points was a BAD thing, right now we should want to be less like the capitals and more like the senators for some potential ill defined possible gain in the future.

The caps won the cup LAST year and they didnt tank. the bruins, didnt tank when they won. the other teams who did, also might have been bad a really long time ago and lucked into getting generational talent that ISNT going to come by every year ( hence generational). is it really your plan to keep sucking until we get a generational talent ? no matter how long it takes ?

The oilers drafted more 1oa's in this time period than anyone, how's that working out for them ? they must be tops of the charts by now right ? no ? how can that be ?> they sucked soooo hard for soooo long and it didnt turn them around ? will we have to out suck the oil ? is that even possible ?

what about buffalo who dealt away a GREAT 2 way center because he was tired of the losing attitude. sure they got eichel and dhalin. man they are gonna be fierce in the playoffs this year !

what's that ?

you don't say !

you know you have yet to provide a model that works better right ? you know that ?

 

[26Mats]

i don't mind failing, not every trade is gooing to be a winner. some players you pick will underpreform, some players you pass on might tear it up.

what I am afraid of is failing by design, embracing a losing culture. that you are ok with this is the scariest part of all.

9 of the last 10 cup winners won by failing and then drafting #1 or #2 overall, plus having many other lottery picks. That's a fact. Only 1 team won without drafting a #1 or #2 overall pick.

The current best team in the league have a #1 (Stamkos), a #2 (Hedman), plus a player they got for a #3 (Sergachev). They would be much lower in the standings without those players.

 

[HabsDood]

Welp, since I live in the U.S, NHL.tv cut the stream off. Might need to be a pirate tonight to see if I can get the postgame. Bob Cole must have had a thrill tonight.

Too bad

 

[Frank Drebin]

the "Boston model" is the exception though, not the norm.


arent the odds of winning the cup low enough as it is ?

Winning the cup is kind of the exception isn't it?

 

[Mandala]

Going back to Poehling... I hope fans do not get on the bandwagon right away. It is a long process to become an NHLer. Let the kid grow up without too much pressure.

 

[CHarlie]

Going back to Poehling... I hope fans do not get on the bandwagon right away. It is a long process to become an NHLer. Let the kid grow up without too much pressure.

What the hell you talkin about.....hes playing for the Montreal Canadiens.....either you can handle the pressure or you cant......that shootout goal proved to me hes got it.

 

[sandysan]

9 of the last 10 cup winners won by failing and then drafting #1 or #2 overall, plus having many other lottery picks. That's a fact. Only 1 team won without drafting a #1 or #2 overall pick.

The current best team in the league have a #1 (Stamkos), a #2 (Hedman), plus a player they got for a #3 (Sergachev). They would be much lower in the standings without those players.

How's that working out for the oil?

 

[26Mats]

What the hell you talkin about.....hes playing for the Montreal Canadiens.....either you can handle the pressure or you cant......that shootout goal proved to me hes got it.

There will be ups and downs with a young player. Kk's decline in play may be as much due to fatigue as lost confidence. I habe no problem being patient with KK and Poehling and giving them time in the AHL. I'd rather see them doing well in the AHL than struggling with confidence issues in the NHL.

 

[sandysan]

9 of the last 10 cup winners won by failing and then drafting #1 or #2 overall, plus having many other lottery picks. That's a fact. Only 1 team won without drafting a #1 or #2 overall pick.

The current best team in the league have a #1 (Stamkos), a #2 (Hedman), plus a player they got for a #3 (Sergachev). They would be much lower in the standings without those players.

When did the reigning Champs do this?
Is tanking the gift that keeps on giving?

 

[cphabs]

its a private league, champ.

and if the owners and the PA both agreed to it ( pssssst they did) what the hell is it to you ?

don't like the current economic situation ? then stop supporting it in its entirety. you know from a fan base perspective addition through subtraction.

this aint the original six anymore, you might want to join us in the 2000's. lamenting about deadbeat teams is soooo passe. we get it, you want your team to buy something it can't win on its own, why do you think they can't win it straight up ?

Removing the cap would be playing it “straight up”.

 

[26Mats]

How's that working out for the oil?

The Oil, Sabers, Leafs, and Lightning are the teams that have the greatest chance to win the cup over the next 7 years because they've drafted the generational talent. If we traded our roster for the Oulers roster, we have a better chance of winnong the cup over the next 7 to 10 years, even 14 years really, if McDavid is still elite at 34, 35.

 

[26Mats]

When did the reigning Champs do this?
Is tanking the gift that keeps on giving?

Ovechkin was #1 overall. They traded away veterans and had multiple 1st and 2nd round picks 5 years in a row, including Backstrom #4 overall and Alzner #5 overall.

 

[CHwest]

How's that working out for the oil?

How's the alternative working out for the Habs.

 

[bsl]

The last cup winners that I think of that did it without tanking since 2000 are:

Boston 2011
Detroit 2008, 2002
Anaheim 2007
New Jersey 2003, 2000

So, roughly 1/3 of the cups were won without tanking (6 out of 19).

But only 1 in the last 10 cups - Boston in 2011.

I expect the next tankers who got generational talent to win the cup to be: Tampa, Toronto, Edmonton, and Buffalo.

With rangers coming up behind.

 

[Corson27]

ou are well versed in syllogisms I gotta give you that.

You picked up on this too, huh? Nice!

 

[bsl]

[QUOTE="sandysan, post: 159150201, member: 142469"

The caps won the cup LAST year and they didnt tank. the bruins, didnt tank when they won. the other teams who did, also might have been bad a really long time ago and lucked into getting generational talent that ISNT going to come by every year ( hence generational). is it really your plan to keep sucking until we get a generational talent ? no matter how long it takes ?

[/QUOTE]
Actually yeah, that is my plan. In combination with good trading, development and UFA pickups. It'll take a lot less time than your non plan.

 

[JianYang]

How's that working out for the oil?

Not good at all..... And it hasn't worked out for multiple teams, but that's not the argument. The argument is that high picks are a pre-requisite for sustained success, but not a guarantee.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

had the same debate last year, then 1st overall Alex Ovechkin and 4th overall N. Backstrom won the cup.

wonder who it will be this year ? 1st overall Stamkos with 2nd overall Hedman ? #1 overall OV again ? 1st and 2nd overall Crosby and Malkin ? 1st and 4th overall Mathews and Marner ? #6 Tkachuck and Monahan with #4 Bennett ? 1st overall McKinnon ? #2 Laine with #9 Trouba and Ehlers and #7 Schiefle ?

Try to stick to your own definitions, do you think the Caps were losing on purpose? Our high picks don't count, but everyone else's do. Sounds pretty logical..