Prospect Info: Ryan Poehling Part 3 - Back to school edition

Status
Not open for further replies.

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,393
26,103
East Coast
Precisely why I tend to stay away from prospect discussions when they're quite far away.
Talk about what they're doing now, that's fine, and it should be left at that. Discussing about some of these kids in relation to the NHL is just a bit pointless to me.

Understood but to some (including me), it's interesting and exciting to see our prospects game. Of course there will be busts but the Habs have had two great drafts years in 2017 and 2018. There is a lot to like a the moment and I'm betting on a few surprises as well. The probability is there.
 

dackelljuneaubulis02

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
11,566
6,897
Precisely why I tend to stay away from prospect discussions when they're quite far away.
Talk about what they're doing now, that's fine, and it should be left at that. Discussing about some of these kids in relation to the NHL is just a bit pointless to me.

That's where the fun is! Pointless to you is fine but a lot of people on here get their kicks from player projections. For some people they get too hyped and end up disappointed, that's fine. Doesn't mean the rest of us can't indulge.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Understood but to some (including me), it's interesting and exciting to see our prospects game. Of course there will be busts but the Habs have had two great drafts years in 2017 and 2018. There is a lot to like a the moment and I'm betting on a few surprises as well. The probability is there.
2017? It's the same pretty much every year for as long as I can remember. Sure, a few off years where not that much is all interesting, but even then, always hear the same things.
Kristo..Leblanc..Tinordi..Scherbak..McCarron..Colberg..DLR..Juulsen...All of them have shared the belief by some fans that hey "if they keep it up", it's going to be greeeeeeat!
Interesting to see the kids develop, agreed, but every year there's always people propping up the draftees.
In any event, I was just commenting on Olof as he's barely was made it as a 2nd rd pick a few weeks ago and played in Swe2 league.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
That's where the fun is! Pointless to you is fine but a lot of people on here get their kicks from player projections. For some people they get too hyped and end up disappointed, that's fine. Doesn't mean the rest of us can't indulge.
Please do endulge, I was just sharing my opinion, not dictating what you or others can and cannot do.
Olof is very, very, very far away. His odds right now are probably higher for him not even making the NHL than becoming a legit top 6 guy.
 

dackelljuneaubulis02

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
11,566
6,897
Please do endulge, I was just sharing my opinion, not dictating what you or others can and cannot do.
Olof is very, very, very far away. His odds right now are probably higher for him not even making the NHL than becoming a legit top 6 guy.

possibly. I'd say roughly the same. He's in good company stat wise for U-18 Allsvenskan players. Almost all the players in recent years are NHLers many of them are good ones. He's got better stats than F. Forsberg had. I think he'll be an NHLer. Middle 6 upside.
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,393
26,103
East Coast
2017? It's the same pretty much every year for as long as I can remember. Sure, a few off years where not that much is all interesting, but even then, always hear the same things.
Kristo..Leblanc..Tinordi..Scherbak..McCarron..Colberg..DLR..Juulsen...All of them have shared the belief by some fans that hey "if they keep it up", it's going to be greeeeeeat!
Interesting to see the kids develop, agreed, but every year there's always people propping up the draftees.
In any event, I was just commenting on Olof as he's barely was made it as a 2nd rd pick a few weeks ago and played in Swe2 league.

Not all prospects are treated the same. Some fans are higher on some picks vs others. And some are world junior type players while others are not. You have every right to steer clear of "hope" on all prospects but you should also steer clear from the prospects thread altogether as well (If you have no interest like you say you do). There are lots of fans who are interested in looking at what each prospect has as qualities and they are not stupid. They realize there will be busts. However, thinking a Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Colberg will repeat itself over and over is way to negative.

Myself? I'm never high on small players. I see a lot of comments about the "new NHL" and smaller players are making impact. There is some truth to this but I will always be higher on a prospect who has all 3 qualities... Size, Skill, and Skating. Mete for example I am not very high on. I like him but he lacks strength and he has no shot. If you look at the contenders, they don't have many small players. Caps won the cup with Skill, Size, and Skating throughout their line-up.

There is another factor that not many acknowledge. The draft years from 2008-2011 really did set the tone and mood with a large % of our fan base for many years. Some think this will continue and they don't look at the circumstance of only 8 top 100 picks in those 4 years. We had 7 top 100 picks in the last draft alone. We are turning the corner with our prospects.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LaP

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Not all prospects are treated the same. Some fans are higher on some picks vs others. And some are world junior type players while others are not. You have every right to steer clear of "hope" on all prospects but you should also steer clear from the prospects thread altogether as well (If you have no interest like you say you do). There are lots of fans who are interested in looking at what each prospect has as qualities and they are not stupid. They realize there will be busts. However, thinking a Kristo, Leblanc, Tinordi, Colberg will repeat itself over and over is way to negative.
There is nothing negative about it. Late 1st picks and 2nd rounders very often don't make the NHL.
That does not mean it will happen every year. But at this point, if you're to ask me about Olof, a 56th pick who played in Swe2, then I don't have much to say.

Myself? I'm never high on small players. I see a lot of comments about the "new NHL" and smaller players are making impact. There is some truth to this but I will always be higher on a prospect who has all 3 qualities... Size, Skill, and Skating. Mete for example I am not very high on. I like him but he lacks strength and he has no shot. If you look at the contenders, they don't have many small players. Caps won the cup with Skill, Size, and Skating throughout their line-up.
Mete skates and moves the puck well, which made him a better D than most on our roster last season already. I think that was a shame, he had no business playing in the NHL last year imo, but we were so desperate for a decent puck mover/skater.
If Mete can be smart positionally, then he can be a pretty good top 4 Dman even if his shot never improves.
As for his strength, he just turned 20 last month so it's normal for a 19yo to lack strength.
Mittelstadt couldn't do one pull up at his combine last year. Younger, sure, but still, teenagers being weak is quite common.
I used to make fun of Patches because he would always fall to the ice in his early days here. He would check players and fall, always looked so weak on his skates. Strength is easily improvable.
I like Mete as a top 4 for now.

There is another factor that not many acknowledge. The draft years from 2008-2011 really did set the tone and mood with a large % of our fan base for many years. Some think this will continue and they don't look at the circumstance of only 8 top 100 picks in those 4 years. We had 7 top 100 picks in the last draft alone. We are turning the corner with our prospects.
2008 happened a decade ago. Time for you to move on. It takes about 3-4 years for picks to reach the NHL. That means 2012-2013-2014 are what you should be looking for, not 2008.
Ya, 08-11 didn't help us, but the kids drafted back then are 28 today so you really need to stop bring those draft years up.
Nobody uses those years as a baseline to prospects production rate. People know those were bad years.
We were the winners of the 2012 draft and that didn't yield us much outside the Galchenyuk, a 3rd overall pick.

The only guys I am excited for are Scherbak, Poe and Kotka. These are the only 3 guys I can see have a significant impact. The rest are all in the "meh" or "wtv" or "way too far away" pile.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peanut

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
possibly. I'd say roughly the same. He's in good company stat wise for U-18 Allsvenskan players. Almost all the players in recent years are NHLers many of them are good ones. He's got better stats than F. Forsberg had. I think he'll be an NHLer. Middle 6 upside.
That's why you shouldn't look at stats when speaking about kids. They really do not mean much.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Peanut

dackelljuneaubulis02

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
11,566
6,897
That's why you shouldn't look at stats when speaking about kids. They really do not mean much.

I think you meant to say something more like 'they're not fool proof evidence of how they'll develop'.

Take your assertion to the Crosbies and McDavids. Should one just ignore their junior stats? Why take them into consideration at all then?

Sure some stats need context but you can't just say 'they really do not mean much'.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
I think you meant to say something more like 'they're not fool proof evidence of how they'll develop'.

Take your assertion to the Crosbies and McDavids. Should one just ignore their junior stats? Why take them into consideration at all then?

Sure some stats need context but you can't just say 'they really do not mean much'.

Let me ask you, would you actually need to look at Crosby's or McDavid's numbers to know they were very special players? Just watch them play a few junior games, it's pretty obvious they are in a league above the rest. I never looked up their junior stats, seeing highlights of them play or full games is enough.

It doesn't mean you should ignore every player's stat line. You can look at it to see if he's more of a scorer than a passer, his FO efficiency, his deployment, etc. You can compare one season to another to determine progress. Have no problem there.
But when you start using that to compare to another player from another generation, etc, then it's pretty pointless.
 

dackelljuneaubulis02

Registered User
Oct 13, 2012
11,566
6,897
Let me ask you, would you actually need to look at Crosby's or McDavid's numbers to know they were very special players? Just watch them play a few junior games, it's pretty obvious they are in a league above the rest. I never looked up their junior stats, seeing highlights of them play or full games is enough.

It doesn't mean you should ignore every player's stat line. You can look at it to see if he's more of a scorer than a passer, his FO efficiency, his deployment, etc. You can compare one season to another to determine progress. Have no problem there.
But when you start using that to compare to another player from another generation, etc, then it's pretty pointless.

lot of players look good and don't produce. and you're kind of shifting gears a bit. going from 'stats don't mean much' to 'of course look at all these stats' and 'don't ignore them'. You're leaping around a bit. It would've been handier if you just mentioned that it's a bit apples and oranges to compare players from different generations, which is obviously fair.

but who's comparing players from different generations? You don't think F. Forsberg 6 years ago is another generation do you? It's not like comparing Crosby's stats to Gretzky's.

Olofsson's in the company of the Filip Forsbergs, the Pastrnaks, and the Nylanders stat wise. No one said to just go on stats. You couple them with the eye test of course. Stats are usually a pretty reliable marker of how good a player is. Like I said, of course they need context and they're not fool proof but you can't say they don't mean much. It seems like you're not saying that anymore so I guess it doesn't matter anyways.
 

admiralcadillac

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
7,497
6,742
I'm not 100% sold on Danault as the future #3C. He has only played one full season where he got 40pts in 82 games playing a lot of games with Patch. I actually would consider moving him to 3rd line LW and play with DLR as the center and Shaw on RW. All depends on if DLR can take the next step from what he showed in the last 2 months of last season.

As far as Poehling and Kotkaniemi as our center depth. They are solid prospects at this stage. They have great size and skill. And they both play a responsible 200' game. I don't think they are longshot gambles.

I think Danault will be a very good 3c moving forward
 
  • Like
Reactions: dralaf

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
lot of players look good and don't produce. and you're kind of shifting gears a bit. going from 'stats don't mean much' to 'of course look at all these stats' and 'don't ignore them'. You're leaping around a bit. It would've been handier if you just mentioned that it's a bit apples and oranges to compare players from different generations, which is obviously fair.
I'm not shifting. Stats for kids mean little. It doesn't mean you can't look at them and completely ignore them. They have their purpose when used properly. Simply looking at stats from X player to compare them to those of player Y who was there years prior is pointless imo.
He produced like Forsberg. Cool. What does that tell us moving forward? Well absolutely nothing. Hence, "they mean very little".
but who's comparing players from different generations? You don't think F. Forsberg 6 years ago is another generation do you? It's not like comparing Crosby's stats to Gretzky's.
By different generation I simply meant of different years because so many things can differ from one year to another.
Olofsson's in the company of the Filip Forsbergs, the Pastrnaks, and the Nylanders stat wise. No one said to just go on stats. You couple them with the eye test of course. Stats are usually a pretty reliable marker of how good a player is. Like I said, of course they need context and they're not fool proof but you can't say they don't mean much. It seems like you're not saying that anymore so I guess it doesn't matter anyways.
Personally I think it's a mistake to go on stats for kids. How many times have we seen kids put up huge junior numbers and then cool off? Most of the time because they were carried. Then there's the level of competition that differs every year, the linemates also change, how you will be used greatly affects your point levels especially in junior years.
How many points did Olof have compared to Forsberg means nothing. How many points did Olof have versus this year vs last...from 0 to 21, well okay, that's better. Let's see how he keeps this up.
But I'm not going to compare him to ppg NHL players who were drafted in the first.
 

Kriss E

Registered User
May 3, 2007
55,329
20,272
Jeddah
Yep. It's all just some great coincidence that all the best players in the NHL today have had really, really good stats in their previous leagues. Nothing at all to be inferred from this fact.
And yet...The all time leading scorers:
WHL: Brian Sakic (591), Glen Goodall (573), Craig Endean (529)
OHL: Stan Drulia (479), Dale McCourt (479), Wayne Groulx (477)
QMJHL: Patrice Lefebvre (595), Stephan Lebeau (580), Patrick Emond (575)

There are plenty of good scorers that amount to nothing as well, but yes, generally speaking great players will have great stats. That's essentially all you proved and I never disputed that.

My point was looking at Olofsson stat and going "hey, he produced like Forsberg", is completely meaningless.
 

NotProkofievian

Registered User
Nov 29, 2011
24,476
24,599
And yet...The all time leading scorers:
WHL: Brian Sakic (591), Glen Goodall (573), Craig Endean (529)
OHL: Stan Drulia (479), Dale McCourt (479), Wayne Groulx (477)
QMJHL: Patrice Lefebvre (595), Stephan Lebeau (580), Patrick Emond (575)

There are plenty of good scorers that amount to nothing as well, but yes, generally speaking great players will have great stats. That's essentially all you proved and I never disputed that.

Great players have great stats. Poor players generally have poor stats. There is some chance that players with mediocre stats go on to improve their stats as they mature as prospects to a meaningful level. And here I thought you said that ''stats don't mean much.'' Seems like they contain a lot of information.

My point was looking at Olofsson stat and going "hey, he produced like Forsberg", is completely meaningless.

That doesn't support the conclusion that ''stats don't mean much,'' even if I agree that this is a poor use of the stats that I posted. The most we can conclude from the table that I provided is that production in the Allsvenskan is at least predictive of an NHL career.
 

Habs Halifax

Loyal Habs Fan
Jul 11, 2016
68,393
26,103
East Coast
I think Danault will be a very good 3c moving forward

I like Danault. I'm just not sold on him being our 3C for sure and I want to see him in a full season without playing with Patch. I am open to have him and DLR fight for that role. One of them plays LW in an ideal line-up. If DLR can take the next step and play like he did in the last few months of the season, I can see him also being the #3C. I just like to see some competition and have both of them play together on the same line. Armia might also be a good fit for them.

Domi / Drouin / Scherbak
Lehkonen / Pleky / Gallagher
Danault / DLR / Armia
Hudon / Shaw / Byron
Peca, Deslauriers
 

eklund the clown

Registered User
Dec 28, 2010
2,141
2,403
I like Danault. I'm just not sold on him being our 3C for sure and I want to see him in a full season without playing with Patch. I am open to have him and DLR fight for that role. One of them plays LW in an ideal line-up. If DLR can take the next step and play like he did in the last few months of the season, I can see him also being the #3C. I just like to see some competition and have both of them play together on the same line. Armia might also be a good fit for them.

Domi / Drouin / Scherbak
Lehkonen / Pleky / Gallagher
Danault / DLR / Armia
Hudon / Shaw / Byron
Peca, Deslauriers
Wow that is one helluva tank lineup right there
 
  • Like
Reactions: ToLegitToQuit
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad