Player Discussion Ryan Nugent-Hopkins '16-17 and Beyond

[Replacement*]

so Nuge should be keeping up with Adam friggin Larsson because 6 yrs ago they were drafted close to each other? Got it!!

I'm saying its natural for any competitive athlete to do so. Really this is the essence of competition. Its a natural human competitive response in a lot of other endeavors as well.

If you want to obfuscate go on.

 

[Replacement*]

how would that change anything? Drai may never overtake RNH .. The upside is certainly there but how about we let him overtake RNH first before shipping out Nuge.. Same goes with Puljujarvi and Eberle. If the Oilers are trading Nuge they better be adding a solid #3C with #2upside ..

to prove my point that Draisaitl has segments in his short NHL career where he has failed to produce like a top 9 player. Yes I cherry picked the segments


nice try... my comment was in response to "Draisaitl overtakking RNH as soon as next season" comment.. Side conversations are good for a bit and dont generally span for days.

Drai overtook Nuge in leaps and bounds last season. Too bad you weren't paying attention.

 

[Replacement*]

It very well may be. Do you really have to ask that question? Why don't you ask the previous management group?

They don't talk with 3rd tier fans and rabble like me.

They already know six rings and winning anyhoo.

jk aside McLennan is furthering this notion that RNH is somehow indispensable. I doubt that view survives this season. RNH got the benefit of doubt due to injuries this season. But those of us that have been around longer know this mulligan has been played a few times.

 

[Draiskull]

I'm saying its natural for any competitive athlete to do so. Really this is the essence of competition. Its a natural human competitive response in a lot of other endeavors as well.

If you want to obfuscate go on.

it really isnt unless there is some history between the players.
Do you think RNH will go in depression if Ryan Strome breaks out? Do you think Hall cares what year Tarasenko was drafted in?

Hall\Seguin is understandable..Yak\Galchenyuk is understandable as well.
RNH-Larsson \ Yakupov-Reinhart is just grasping at straws.

I am 100% sure that RNH isnt freaking out over Larsson having more value to the Oilers than him. I am also sure that Drouin isnt breaking down Monahan's advanced stats and trying to better him next season..

 

[McFlyingV]

This reads like the moment in spinal tap when David St. Hubbins describes Nigel as just another member of the band and we'll get over it, we got over Arcobello and all the others and Brule spontaneously combusted.

Obviously the extraction of Hall is going to have a significant impact on Eberle, RNH. Even losing Schultz was a shock to them strangely enough. Now Schultz, in comparison, wasn't even a significant member of the team in anyway.

Perhaps, but we also don't know if that will be a negative or positive impact. I'm not sure how Schultz being traded had any impact on them, or even a negative one as it seems you're suggesting. The team improved immensely when Schultz was moved until Clendenning decided to be the new Schultz in the D-zone. I don't think Eberle will take it too hard considering he's likely going to be playing with a player who is already twice the player Hall is. We'll see how Nuge responds, but I'm fine with him being given the chance to drive his line and stop deferring to Hall all the time. He'll have quality line mates to play with, and the last time he had quality line mates while not playing with Hall he was quite good, even if you want to call it an anomaly. Last season is a poor representation of his ability to play away from Hall for a number of reasons. First being that when he was healthy, Eberle was coming off an injury and was playing some of the worst hockey of his career. Then when Nuge finally got back from injury, which in itself usually takes some time to get back up to speed, he was playing on the 3rd line with wingers like Korpikoski, Pakarinen, Yakupov. He'll get better line mates this year than that, and he'll hopefully have a healthy year with another summer of physical development.

We'll see if he can prove himself without Hall, but until he fails I have no reason to believe that he can't have a quality season without him.

 

[Draiskull]

Drai overtook Nuge in leaps and bounds last season. Too bad you weren't paying attention.

and RNH in his rookie season became the Oilers #1C ... Drai clicking with Hall for 40 games last season doesnt make him a surefire #2C .. Nor does it make him a consistent 50pt player in the NHL.

Oilers have the luxury of keeping RNH around until Draisaitl solidifes himself (or busts). There really is no reason to trade RNH unless it nets them a very good retrun.

 

[Aerchon]

Drai overtook Nuge in leaps and bounds last season. Too bad you weren't paying attention.

Leon looked great.

I personally think him and Halls success when they were ripping it had almost as much to do with Leon as it did Hall.

I also think when Leon and Hall struggled at times it was fairly even for thier responsibility.

I think Leon projects to potentially be better than Nuge but is not there yet.

We all know having Hall as a linemate can add some shine and I think that is what makes you think he is currently better than Nuge.

Management legitimately is high on Nuge. For a variety of reasons. I will never take Oilers management's opinion as gospel but Chiarelli and McLellan are solid enough hockey minds to at least take some of that into consideration.

 

[rboomercat90]

Perhaps that was the problem. A group of kids alienating themselves from the rest of the team because of this "rat pack" mentality with Hall being the leader of that group. I think it will actually benefit RNH to branch of on his own and not have to differ to Hall on the ice or in any leadership aspect. To be quite frank, I think he looked better away from Hall the last couple of seasons than with although a very small sample size last season with Hall.

There seem to be a lot of people on this board that don't want to acknowledge that this might be a possibility. I have no clue whether it's the case or not but like I said when Chiarelli introduced Lucic and said the Hall for Larsson trade was happening regardless of Lucic signing because the team needed an attitude change, that there may have been some kind of problem there. He mentioned the need to "change the attitude" a few times in that speech. I found it curious he chose those words instead of the generic term "culture change" that's usually used.

 

[rboomercat90]

Man, if we're waiting to see Nuge meet his potential by age 27 I hope its on another team. Why the Oil been paying him this much annually for this contract?

Because Craig Mactavish had seen enough of him to know that it was a "no brainer" that he was a first line center and didn't need to give him a bridge contract to prove himself.

 

[Draiskull]

Because Craig Mactavish had seen enough of him to know that it was a "no brainer" that he was a first line center and didn't need to give him a bridge contract to prove himself.

so MacT saw Nuge scoring 50+ points in a shortened rookie season where he looked as good as older Hall and Eberle. He then saw him play great in the AHL during lockout and then scoring 24pt in the lockout season.
By that time it was clear that RNH was going to be the Oilers' best C since D.Weight.

MacT locked him up for 7 yrs and RNH produced 56 pts in the first 2 seasons after inking that contract.

It is true that RNH has yet to really break out but compared to other 6M players around the league RNH is not really overpaid.

Nuge's rookie season was more productive than Draisaitl's season last year (his 2nd season) 52 in 62GP vs 51 in 72GP

 

[Tarus]

so MacT saw Nuge scoring 50+ points in a shortened rookie season where he looked as good as older Hall and Eberle. He then saw him play great in the AHL during lockout and then scoring 24pt in the lockout season.
By that time it was clear that RNH was going to be the Oilers' best C since D.Weight.

MacT locked him up for 7 yrs and RNH produced 56 pts in the first 2 seasons after inking that contract.

It is true that RNH has yet to really break out but compared to other 6M players around the league RNH is not really overpaid.

Nuge's rookie season was more productive than Draisaitl's season last year (his 2nd season) 52 in 62GP vs 51 in 72GP

He wasn't good in the AHL, lagging behind Hall/Eberle to the point that Nelson had to take him off that line and replace him with Arcobello, at which point the line really took off. There were lots of warning signs even then that RNH wouldn't be worth a 6 million dollar a year contract like the Oiler's two actual star players, but Mact is from the school of thought that if someone ask for something in a negotiations, you just have to give it to them.

 

[McTrashBoat]

I can't help it. Look at the damn resemblance.

If Nuge had an AC/DC shirt they'd be twins. Wheres the photoshop guys?

Working for a few more hours

 

[belair]

Drai overtook Nuge in leaps and bounds last season. Too bad you weren't paying attention.

Your bias stood out in the first half dozen posts in this thread but I'm sure you'd be fine having Draisaitl lining up against top competition next year without Taylor Hall's coattails to hang on to. Obviously he'd be fine because Nugent-Hopkins has done it since he entered the league as an 18 year old.

 

[SomeDudeOTI]

So in your estimation it wouldn't even occur to Nuge that his friend got traded for the player that passed Nuge in value since his draft year? The player picked 4th that year who now has greater worth than Nuge? So much so that the #1 pick (Nuge) couldn't even be considered in trade for the 4th(Larsson now?

if that doesn't occur to him theres something wrong with his motivation.

The entire time Hall has been in the NHL he's tried to keep up with Sequin. With Hall and Sequin being too fine thoroughbreds. Unlike Nuge still trying to find his way 6yrs in.

I just think you're reading too much into the situation. Without spending significant face time with the people in question it is speculation and imo you're reaching in ascribing/predicting survivor guilt.

As for trade value and getting passed by a #4 who turned into a (supposedly unavailable) 1/2 RHD, I think it would be more likely for Nuge to justify the situation using the premium for a RHD and his injuries lowering his value due to an unimpressive season. Also, if you'll recall, the trade was widely considered to be an overpay that was required to pry Larsson free. As an overpay that would lower Larsson's value from Hall... possibly even down to a 1/2C. It was a hockey move and I'm sure Nuge will see it as such and not as a personal devaluation.

 

[tinfish]

May as well insert this here. Was going to be a new thread but now you made this one.

The Survivor Guilt of Ryan Nugent Hopkins?;




Now I'm speaking of this figuratively, of course, and being cast out of the Oilers could hardly be considered a traumatic concept for most, but for Hall he, by his own statements felt badly about the trade, felt slighted, and that there was no other way for him to take this. Hall wanted to win here, of that there is no doubt.


Hopkins as we know was drafted by the Oilers instead of Larsson who was drafted 4th in same draft year.

FF to this year and Nuge, through his own on ice regression, and not matching contractual worth of his 6M contract, is not even in the ballpark in trade value for Larsson. Shero won't even consider any less than Hall in trade.

So that Nuge see's Hall, who he full well knows has been the leader of this team the entire time Nuge has been playing here, traded instead due to Nuge not progressing commensurately with Larsson.

Not only was Hall a leader on the ice, the whole rat pack here Centered around him. Following him around like brothers. Benefitting from his talent, presence, confidence, and verve.

So Nuge, due to his own relative futility (as compared to Hall) stands by and watches Hall take the trade bullet instead and have his dream of winning with the Oilers ended while Nuge, through lesser development, gets to stay and again knowing full well that his mere presence here is due to how little his contract and trade value is.

Now these are professional players but I can't help but think the Hall trade, and Nuge knowing why he avoided the bullet(ordinary season), that it won't exactly help his self confidence, feeling of integration here, and what his value is.

McLellans proclamations notwithstanding there wasn't much to recommend of Nuges play in this season. I wonder how long before he's either 3rd lined or his contract is seen as negligible value here.

I don't see the Hall trade much helping Nuge. I wonder if Nuge even continues to relate to the team the same way and that if pro hockey wonderland is over for him. Really I think he's been a kid with a 6M contract that has been content to bask in that.

 

[Replacement*]

I just think you're reading too much into the situation. Without spending significant face time with the people in question it is speculation and imo you're reaching in ascribing/predicting survivor guilt.

As for trade value and getting passed by a #4 who turned into a (supposedly unavailable) 1/2 RHD, I think it would be more likely for Nuge to justify the situation using the premium for a RHD and his injuries lowering his value due to an unimpressive season. Also, if you'll recall, the trade was widely considered to be an overpay that was required to pry Larsson free. As an overpay that would lower Larsson's value from Hall... possibly even down to a 1/2C. It was a hockey move and I'm sure Nuge will see it as such and not as a personal devaluation.

It was presented as speculation in figurative terms. But with the precept that its a commonly felt natural dynamic. thus survivor guilt being a very real human phenomenon.

Its application to this situation is of course speculation and was presented in that spirt.

That said the thought of what happened to Hall, instead of Nuge, would certainly be on Nuges mind and something he has to deal with. Eberle too. Players in any teamsport would be imbued with this much of a consideration of close others.

 

[TFHockey]

I don't see how anyone could remark that Draisaitl is ahead of RNH in development. You'll note that Drai disappeared down the stretch last year. He has all the tools to be a better center than RNH but he isn't there yet. When he is playing against top competition and sheltering other centers you can say he has eclipsed RNH.

A good article that quantifies what I am saying:

http://www.tsn.ca/trade-ryan-nugent-hopkins-really-1.403545


Also the comment that Nugent-Hopkins is still very much a kid shows how little the poster knows the player. He is mature beyond his years.

 

[McNuge]

It was presented as speculation in figurative terms. But with the precept that its a commonly felt natural dynamic. thus survivor guilt being a very real human phenomenon.

Its application to this situation is of course speculation and was presented in that spirt.

That said the thought of what happened to Hall, instead of Nuge, would certainly be on Nuges mind and something he has to deal with. Eberle too. Players in any teamsport would be imbued with this much of a consideration of close others.

Why are you still trying to push this ridiculous logic? Poor RNH he gets to play with McDavid for a few more years. I'm really sure he is affected that a player in his draft class who went 3 spots behind him got traded for a more valuable asset. Larsson was also in the conversation for #1 overall for almost the entire year. Not to mention RD is the most coveted position in hockey ATM. So yeah it is going to take an overpay to get it...

 

[Replacement*]

Why are you still trying to push this ridiculous logic? Poor RNH he gets to play with McDavid for a few more years. I'm really sure he is affected that a player in his draft class who went 3 spots behind him got traded for a more valuable asset. Larsson was also in the conversation for #1 overall for almost the entire year. Not to mention RD is the most coveted position in hockey ATM. So yeah it is going to take an overpay to get it...

Well wait, no, we could have just picked Larsson. Too bad we didn't.

This way we get to lose Hall, the best player on the team the last half dozen years, while having to continue to watch Nuge drift. That's like a double whammy. No Hall AND I have to continue to stomach Nuge's increasingly peripheral and disconnected play.

 

[Replacement*]

Why are you still trying to push this ridiculous logic? Poor RNH he gets to play with McDavid for a few more years. I'm really sure he is affected that a player in his draft class who went 3 spots behind him got traded for a more valuable asset. Larsson was also in the conversation for #1 overall for almost the entire year. Not to mention RD is the most coveted position in hockey ATM. So yeah it is going to take an overpay to get it...

Well, won't be long before McDavid and Drai have solidified 6M buck Nuge being out of a realistic role here. Not gonna pay this guy 6M on the 3rd line. Yes, Drai has shown more in the one full season here than Nuge has his whole career. Drai is much harder to play with, much better at keeping puck, sheltering the puck, much better working cycles, give and go's and much better at moving the puck, and himself, to scoring areas.

Nuge is still learning aspects of NHL play that Drai picked up in one full season.

 

[McNuge]

Well wait, no, we could have just picked Larsson. Too bad we didn't.

This way we get to lose Hall, the best player on the team the last half dozen years, while having to continue to watch Nuge drift. That's like a double whammy. No Hall AND I have to continue to stomach Nuge's increasingly peripheral and disconnected play.

Yes I'm sure he would have developed just as well in Edmonton lmao...

 

[Draiskull]

Well wait, no, we could have just picked Larsson. Too bad we didn't.

This way we get to lose Hall, the best player on the team the last half dozen years, while having to continue to watch Nuge drift. That's like a double whammy. No Hall AND I have to continue to stomach Nuge's increasingly peripheral and disconnected play.

so we could have picked Larsson over RNH 6 yrs ago just so we would still have Hall on the team....

Add in the butterfly effect and we would not have McDavid on our team and we would probably be looking for a C like RNH offering up someone like Hall..

It takes an overpayment to land a #1C

 

[MettleMcOiler]

 

[MessierII]

Its funny that you mention that because I think its a likely source of embarrassment for the Oilers ratpack (anybody but hall who has been better) of how good Johhny hockey has been and how quickly he made the NHL transition.

You think when Calgary comes in here and owns this team 5-0 in their own barn the pack here are not deflated in that? Or caught wondering about their own respective development.

The rat pack never bothered to show up for those games so no I don't think they were deflated. They genuinely didn't care. Which was the problem.

 

[Draiskull]

look at this 6M dollars sucking so called hockey player..
I say we burn his jerseys..

He looks pink with envy... I bet Larsson played better golf than him too.