RW Jake Virtanen (2014, 6th, VAN) III

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Aceboogie

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Is there nothing or noone to talk some sense into this idiot? He obvi cant figure nothing out himself. Hes done. Trade him for a 5th rounder. Anything. What a waste of a 6 overall pick :facepalm:

What say Canuck fans to a Virtanen for G.Reinhart+ deal. Oilers need the forward depth in the AHL and could slot him there for a year or more. They also could use that scoring touch if it develops

Reinhart is a local kid and nearing bust status. Could be in a better enviroment in Utica if he got more playing time and a change of scenery
 

Love

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My god ahaha. the last 3 parts are tough to read. His development is really being butchered. Hard to tell if it was a bad pick or just horrible development

Canucks have no clue what they're doing but Virtanen's attitude hasn't helped either. He is very immature.
 

Eternalize

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Canucks have no clue what they're doing but Virtanen's attitude hasn't helped either. He is very immature.

Was never really a fan of the Virtanen pick but i also think it's hard to blame him considering what a ****show this has been. It has been a frustrating start of the year for him. He should've been sent down to Utica right away instead of playing limited minutes or even sitting out games. Agree though that he's not as mature a guy as, for instance Horvat, who's only 1 year older than him. Hard to think that Virtanen climbed the "rankings" due to having great interviews with teams heading into the draft in 2014.
 

Love

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If what he's saying is true, that he had no idea what that "stuff" story was, can you really blame him? I get he's 20 but he's shown a lot of patience..

Virtanen also made comments questioning WDs lineup decisions after the Canucks lost 9 straight and Virtanen was left out of the lineup. Virtanen'a *****ing would have had merit if he wasn't the worst player on our team, but unfortunately he was just that.
 

Get North

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He doesn't know what it means to be a professional yet. He needs time to realize what will keep him in the league and how to act in a heavy hockey environment like Vancouver.
 

Mathew Barzal

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We were warned, lol.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=100428137#post100428137

I actually disagree with a lot on both sides here.

First off, I am a Hitmen season ticket holder and in addition to all the home games, I watch many of the away games via streaming. I'm not saying that in the sense that I want to claim to know more about Virtanen (or any other player), but to point out my pro-Hitmen bias and simply that I have likely had the highest number of viewings of Virtanen of anyone here (except maybe FLYguy - he seems to watch every game).

I've stated before that Virtanen's body language and facial expressions on the ice and bench, and particularly in warm-up, suggest to me that he's a "spoiled" hockey player - that is, he has been told he is god's gift to hockey for a long time and believes it. He reminds me a lot of Crosby at this age in this regard. I have never met Virtanen nor do I think I ever will, but watching his actions on the bench and expressions after a play in which a teammate has made a mistake, he seems to think he is better than everyone else.

TOML noted that he has been "defensively responsible" in the ICE series, which is partially true. Virtanen has great wheels and covers a tonne of ice very quickly, so he's able to get back to his own zone quickly. However, he really struggles identifying what to do on the defensive side of the rush. I've seen him miss picking up his man many, many times over the coarse of the season that leads to a goal against. Example, watch Kootenay's first goal (about 40 seconds in):

http://www.whl.ca/video/56302

Virtanen commits a brutal giveaway, but is part of the backcheck and in the defensive zone at the same time as the puck. He never picks up Philp though, who goes on to score.

In terms of playmaking, I'd actually agree with TOML here. He's certainly picked up his playmaking ability and isn't a pure shot-first guy anymore. Craig is right in that he's not a Merkley or Barzal (and never will be), but I'd disagree that most of his assists come from shot-related events. In game 7, he made an excellent goal-line to blue-line pass, and was very unselfish on a 2-on-0 (2:40 and 5:10):

http://www.whl.ca/video/56821

Regarding the penalties, I think you're both right and both wrong. Virtanen does not take many undisciplined penalties for being "stupid". He does, however, eat a tonne of penalty minutes because he hits hard, and is rarely on the losing side of any physical play. He also gained a reputation for running over goaltenders last year, so if he goes anywhere near a keeper he's going to pick up a penalty.

With the shutdown role, Craig is right. At home, French never matches Virtanen against the top line (in this series, that's Reinhart). Specifically, Tambellini is the top line, Virtanen is the second, and Fazleev is the third. Like Craig said, Fazleev gets matched against the opposition's top line, although I think this may be because he's the best face-off man on the Hitmen.

However, line matching doesn't always work and Virtanen isn't a blind hockey player. He knows when he's on the ice with top-level talent (like Reinhart) and can take them off their game with physical play.

Finally, his "hockey IQ". This one gets tossed around everywhere and Virtanen is labelled as having low hockey IQ. I think I mostly agree with Craig in that he's about average, maybe a bit above, but he appears to have low hockey IQ because the rest of his skills are so high. He very often has "decided" on a play well before starting it and shows an inability to adapt (this is most evident when he is coming down the wing with the puck). He clearly makes a decision on whether or not to pass well in advance and if the pass option isn't there, it usually leads to a turnover. Same with a play like the wrap-around - he's decided that's what he's doing before he does it.

Just out of curiousity, Craig - where are your seats? I'm low behind the opposition net so if you have a different angle you may see things differently.
 

Ubik

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Feb 10, 2014
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What say Canuck fans to a Virtanen for G.Reinhart+ deal. Oilers need the forward depth in the AHL and could slot him there for a year or more. They also could use that scoring touch if it develops

Reinhart is a local kid and nearing bust status. Could be in a better enviroment in Utica if he got more playing time and a change of scenery

Canucks need more depth up forward than they do in defense. This would be a big no at this point.

Tryamkin, Hutton, Tanev, Gudbrandson, Stecher, Subban, Pedan, Juolevi, Neil, Olson, Briesbos, Candella, Mceneny, Sautner.
 

Ubik

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Jake's still young, I'd give him more time. He needs an attitude adjustment. Travis Green, Baumer and King will have to steer this kid back to his potential on the ice.
 

Neutral Hockey Fan

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He doesn't know what it means to be a professional yet. He needs time to realize what will keep him in the league and how to act in a heavy hockey environment like Vancouver.

If that's the case, then what the bloody hell are the sedins doing???? Arent they the "leaders" that are there to help guide the young guys into the league and teach them what it takes to be a professional? Sounds to me that this is all on Canucks leadership group being completely useless on and off the ice. Yikes. Things are worse in Vancouver than we originally thought. Scary times ahead
 

Eternalize

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Canucks need more depth up forward than they do in defense. This would be a big no at this point.

Tryamkin, Hutton, Tanev, Gudbrandson, Stecher, Subban, Pedan, Juolevi, Neil, Olson, Briesbos, Candella, Mceneny, Sautner.

Yeah i'm not sure if that was supposed to be a joke or not. He even said it, "Reinhart is nearing bust status". Why would Vancouver trade Virtanen for him? I can't see Reinhart being anything more than a bottom pairing defenceman, skating is a big issue for him. Jake have the tools to be at least a good 3rd liner IMO, maybe even something more.

If that's the case, then what the bloody hell are the sedins doing???? Arent they the "leaders" that are there to help guide the young guys into the league and teach them what it takes to be a professional? Sounds to me that this is all on Canucks leadership group being completely useless on and off the ice. Yikes. Things are worse in Vancouver than we originally thought. Scary times ahead

I think a lot comes up to the individual as well. A "leader" can't change someones mindset on their own, not if the individual refuses to listen, or doesn't really take in completely what the leader says.

There's a video on YouTube where Horvat talks about Henrik Sedin, and how he pulled him aside last year when Horvat was on a scoring drought. He basically said that he should just keep doing what he's doing, that he's doing fine and that the drought will end eventually. It didn't take many games before he ended the drought, and after that, he was arguably the best player on the team the 2nd half of the season. Horvat's dad also talked about how important he think the Sedins have been to Bo's NHL career. Bo is willing to learn, he wants to get better and he wants to win. I think you can question Jake here. He does strike me as a little bit naive, and i don't think it's impossible that he thought very highly of himself in junior.

Also hard to forget last year when Daniel went crazy after another loss, basically saying that there were some players on the team that weren't trying hard enough, or didn't take it serious enough.
 

Kamiccolo

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Yeah i'm not sure if that was supposed to be a joke or not. He even said it, "Reinhart is nearing bust status". Why would Vancouver trade Virtanen for him? I can't see Reinhart being anything more than a bottom pairing defenceman, skating is a big issue for him. Jake have the tools to be at least a good 3rd liner IMO, maybe even something more.

He couldn't even crack the 4th line on one of the worst teams in the NHL. He hasn't improved since being drafted, and is laying eggs in the AHL.

This kid is already a bust.
 

Eternalize

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He couldn't even crack the 4th line on one of the worst teams in the NHL. He hasn't improved since being drafted, and is laying eggs in the AHL.

This kid is already a bust.

Lol are you for real? The guy turned 20 just a couple of months ago. He was drafted 2 years ago. And now he's a bust? You sound like your typical leafs fan during the WJC last year, probably have some hard feelings towards him yet, how embarassing. He's a great skater, physically very mature for his age and dominant physically when he wants to. The least he could do is to just "learn" to play the system and dump and chase. If he does that, he should be a 3rd liner long term. Literally no reason for him to not make the NHL, that's one of the reasons why he was picked as high as 6th overall. He was considered a "safe" pick that was going to make the NHL.
 

Aceboogie

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Lol are you for real? The guy turned 20 just a couple of months ago. He was drafted 2 years ago. And now he's a bust? You sound like your typical leafs fan during the WJC last year, probably have some hard feelings towards him yet, how embarassing. He's a great skater, physically very mature for his age and dominant physically when he wants to. The least he could do is to just "learn" to play the system and dump and chase. If he does that, he should be a 3rd liner long term. Literally no reason for him to not make the NHL, that's one of the reasons why he was picked as high as 6th overall. He was considered a "safe" pick that was going to make the NHL.

I think to call him a definite bust is still to early. Hell its probably still too early at 24 as some guys have resurged from the ashes (AHL/Europe) to have NHL careers. But I do think the odds are massively stacked against him. It would be tough to find comparables that had similar career paths and went on to be good NHLers. Id say his best comparable is probably Benoit Pouliot or Raffi Torres

Virtanen had a poor draft +1 year, poor WJC, poor rookie season (apart from a good stretch of games) and now poor 2nd year (but management plays a part). Not sure how many other top 10 picks have followed that path and then recovered. And to boot- the management situation in Vancouver will always linger over him. If they have no direction or guidance for him, he is screwed regardless. Maybe if he was dealt to like Tampa or some good development team he could rebound. But even at that I think the player has to many shortcomings as a player and a person to ever really be an impactful player. It looks like Benoit Pouliot is his upside- maybe Evander Kane if all goes right. Is he a bust if hes a 3rd or 4th liner ala Torres? Or a dissappointment. The word bust means different things to different people
 

Aceboogie

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Maybe to early to say but I think JV has to hit rock bottom before he can be rebuilt into an NHLer. This is a kid who was probably heralded as the next Rick Nash or premier power forward from age 10. He went on to be the biggest,badest dog in the yard in bantam/midget as was the #1 overall pick in the WHL draft. He then was a premier player on his WHL team and put up some absurd goal totals in his draft year and drafted #6 in the NHL draft. The issue with all that is that his mentality is that he is going to be this first line, go to player in the NHL. Often for great prospects they get some things handed to them before they 100% show they are ready and get a ton of le way for coach/fans etc. JV could do no wrong pre NHL. Now he comes into an environment where he is really being challenged. Things arent handed to him and he cant just outscore all his problems. But when you are the next big thing you dont want to accept that youll be a depth player or AHLer for a bit and have to prove yourself, you want to continue being the best player on the team like you were before

So I think hell have to accept that relaity- but its really hard. Its hard to accept that youll have to be a grinder to get your foot in the NHL door (and being a grinder for a former goal scoring skilled guy is like demoting a CEO to janitor). But once he accepts that role he can start developing into that good 3rd line player who can be used in all situations. From there he can work on developing top 6 skill. But if he just thinks he can continue his style of play and develop into a top 6 player, hes in for a tough reality

So thats on him. On management they need to clearly define that for him and set expectations. If they are just scared to confront him or nerovus theyll **** him off, they need to overcome that
 

Eternalize

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I think to call him a definite bust is still to early. Hell its probably still too early at 24 as some guys have resurged from the ashes (AHL/Europe) to have NHL careers. But I do think the odds are massively stacked against him. It would be tough to find comparables that had similar career paths and went on to be good NHLers. Id say his best comparable is probably Benoit Pouliot or Raffi Torres

Virtanen had a poor draft +1 year, poor WJC, poor rookie season (apart from a good stretch of games) and now poor 2nd year (but management plays a part). Not sure how many other top 10 picks have followed that path and then recovered. And to boot- the management situation in Vancouver will always linger over him. If they have no direction or guidance for him, he is screwed regardless. Maybe if he was dealt to like Tampa or some good development team he could rebound. But even at that I think the player has to many shortcomings as a player and a person to ever really be an impactful player. It looks like Benoit Pouliot is his upside- maybe Evander Kane if all goes right. Is he a bust if hes a 3rd or 4th liner ala Torres? Or a dissappointment. The word bust means different things to different people

Bust is such an overused word on this forum. People love throwing that word around, especially on prospects that doesn't belong to their own team.

This guy added little substance, and the only thing he's doing is provoking and showing massive disrespect towards a player. I think it's pretty pathetic personally, it nearly sounds like he's enjoying seeing others doing bad, or he's just hoping that they will fail, cuz well.. they belong to a rival team of his. Logic.

Considering a lot of players being drafted early doesn't make the NHL at all, i'd say if he does end up being a 3rd line player, that would be "ok" and nothing more based on his draft status. Of course it would be disappointing. Still, a lot of players ended up being less.
 

Lehkonen4Calder

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3 assist in 19 AHL games... wich top prospect as sucked that much in the AHL and recovered from it? If he become a 3rd liner that's a win for Vancouver
 

Aceboogie

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Bust is such an overused word on this forum. People love throwing that word around, especially on prospects that doesn't belong to their own team.

This guy added little substance, and the only thing he's doing is provoking and showing massive disrespect towards a player. I think it's pretty pathetic personally, it nearly sounds like he's enjoying seeing others doing bad, or he's just hoping that they will fail, cuz well.. they belong to a rival team of his. Logic.

Considering a lot of players being drafted early doesn't make the NHL at all, i'd say if he does end up being a 3rd line player, that would be "ok" and nothing more based on his draft status. Of course it would be disappointing. Still, a lot of players ended up being less.

I think bust and disappointment are used as the same thing by people. A 4th liner drafted top 10 can be a bust to one person and a disappointment to another. Personaly I think a bust is any non NHL player and a "dissappointment" is any depth player drafted in top 10 (however I am aware a average 2nd liner is the average for these players).

If things go right and both management and the player get their heads on right, JV can become a Torres/Pouliot player or maybe evn Kane. I say thats a slight let down but by no means a bust. But I do think hes on the path to be a big let down or even a bust. The situation is not really good for either Vancouver or JV as it currently stands. Vancouver wants a different type player, JV wants to be a different player (this is just IMO). Then their is also ownership who wants this kid in the NHL as a sellable piece for the team
 

Eternalize

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3 assist in 19 AHL games... wich top prospect as sucked that much in the AHL and recovered from it? If he become a 3rd liner that's a win for Vancouver

Whether he's a top prospect or not seems quite insignificant in the matter if you ask me. After all, his game is more than just scoring goals. Which is why he have the potential to make it as at least a bottom 6 forward in the NHL.

And it's also 2 assists in 7 AHL-games this season. Not quite as bad as you made it out to be.
 

Eternalize

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I think bust and disappointment are used as the same thing by people. A 4th liner drafted top 10 can be a bust to one person and a disappointment to another. Personaly I think a bust is any non NHL player and a "dissappointment" is any depth player drafted in top 10 (however I am aware a average 2nd liner is the average for these players).

If things go right and both management and the player get their heads on right, JV can become a Torres/Pouliot player or maybe evn Kane. I say thats a slight let down but by no means a bust. But I do think hes on the path to be a big let down or even a bust. The situation is not really good for either Vancouver or JV as it currently stands. Vancouver wants a different type player, JV wants to be a different player (this is just IMO). Then their is also ownership who wants this kid in the NHL as a sellable piece for the team

Yeah i agree that it's not the best situation for him, and he has obviously been struggling. Still, i think a lot of people have to wait and see before they start to label him as a bust. The season just begun, and this would have been his 1st season as a pro if he didn't crack the NHL-roster last year (which he shouldn't have done IMO).
 

Stephen

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He either goes the way of Brad Isbister, Chad Kilger, etc. and doesn't make anything of himself, or he goes the way of Cam Neely, Todd Bertuzzi who has to be traded out of his original team to turn it around somewhere else.
 
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