RW Eeli Tolvanen - Jokerit, KHL (2017, 30th, NSH)

[IceHockeyDude]

That's true, Pulkkinen is 7 yrs older than Tolvanen.
So it'll be irrelevant made comparisons, with 4th rounder NHL winger and 16 yrs old prospect.

I meant to compare them at the same age and in the same leagues in juniors. If Tolvanen would be able to score as impressing stats as Pulkkinen did before his draft and if he would be as talented as him then he would be a 4th rounder as well. But if he will get taller, faster and skilled then he could get drafted higher but anything can happen the next two seasons.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

I meant to compare them at the same age and in the same leagues in juniors. If Tolvanen would be able to score as impressing stats as Pulkkinen did before his draft and if he would be as talented as him then he would be a 4th rounder as well. But if he will get taller, faster and skilled then he could get drafted higher but anything can happen the next two seasons.

That's true too.
Tolvanen has 2 seasons, time to develop him as hockey player.

Tolvanen is now 178cm so if he grows 10cm next two seasons he'll be 188cm his draft year.
But also it's possible Tolvanen won't grow more.

Example Martin St Louis was under 180cm when he played NHL.
And still he was very fast skater and very skilled player.

I don't say Tolvanen is next St Louis.
But let's see how much he develop and grows next 2 season.

 

[kelsier]

I meant to compare them at the same age and in the same leagues in juniors. If Tolvanen would be able to score as impressing stats as Pulkkinen did before his draft and if he would be as talented as him then he would be a 4th rounder as well. But if he will get taller, faster and skilled then he could get drafted higher but anything can happen the next two seasons.

For the best of my memory Pulkkinen suffered a serious knee injury prior to his draft year dropping his stocks quite a bit. Should there be a re-draft he would be a first rounder without much doubt. Not a very good player to draw comparisons in regards of future's draft order.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

For the best of my memory Pulkkinen suffered a serious knee injury prior to his draft year dropping his stocks quite a bit. Should there be a re-draft he would be a first rounder without much doubt. Not a very good player to draw comparisons in regards of future's draft order.

I doubt he would've been a first rounder though. He was so one-dimensional and a slow skater. Now he has been taking huge steps in his development and finally becoming a possible winger for the Detroit. There is also a possibility that he won't be able to transfer his game from AHL-level to the NHL.

 

[kelsier]

I doubt he would've been a first rounder though. He was so one-dimensional and a slow skater. Now he has been taking huge steps in his development and finally becoming a possible winger for the Detroit. There is also a possibility that he won't be able to transfer his game from AHL-level to the NHL.

I meant if the teams could re-draft now, not back in the day. And sure, that is hypothetically speaking. Still, I'd think he'd gone higher than he did were he not injured in the begin with.

 

[LoveHateLeafs]

Three questions for Tormentor (or anyone else with a memory that goes back to ~2008):

1) Since skating is a weakness for both Tolvanen and Pulkkinen, whose skating is better: Tolvanen's today or Pulkkinen's at the same age?

2) Did Pulkkinen play in the Hlinka as an underager? I know he did really well as an underager at the u18 championships, but that was on Granlund's wing.

3)(Slightly OT, but this seems as good a place as any)How applicable are comparisons of today's Finnish junior players with those like Pulkkinen? If I remember correctly, Pulkkinen, Granlund and Rajala were the first group of Finnish junior players in years to come along and really tear apart the junior leagues as underagers. How much of their gaudy point totals were a result of the general weakness of the 91,90, and 89 age groups that they were playing against? Finnish prospects have improved dramatically at the top end (ie NHL draft material) since that time. Has the average level of play in Finland's junior leagues increased as well?

My point is, if Pulkkinen and Tolvanen both scored 2 points-per-game in the u18 league in their draft- minus 2 seasons, all else being the same, are those accomplishments roughly equal? Or is 2 ppg in the Finnish u18 league more impressive in 2014-15 than it was in 2007-08? This isn't so much about Tolvanen, just about numbers in general.

 

[IFK]

In same age as follows points to Tolvanen, Pulkkinen, Granlund, Laine and Puljujärvi.

Pulkkinen:

2006-2007 C-SM sarja 11 games 21+22=43 (3.91 PPG), B-SM sarja 1 game 0+0=0
2007-2008 B-SM sarja 23 games 23+17=40 (1.74 PPG)

Granlund:

2006-2007 C-SM sarja 11 games 15+16=31 (2.82 PPG)
2007-2008 B-SM sarja 22 games 18+22=40 (1.82 PPG)

Jesse Puljujärvi:

2012-2013 C-SM sarja 8 games 12+8=20 (2.50 PPG), B-SM sarja 42 games 31+20=51 (1.21 PPG)
2013-2014 B-SM sarja 8 games 7+7=14 (1.75 PPG), A-SM sarja 18 games 12+11=23 (1.28 PPG)

Patrik Laine:

2012-2013 C-SM sarja 9 games 14+8=22 (2.44 PPG), B-SM sarja 27 games 17+9=26 (0.96 PPG)
2013-2014 B-SM sarja 5 games 5+6=11 (2.20 PPG), A-SM sarja 40 games 26+11=37 (0.93 PPG)

Eeli Tolvanen:

2013-2014 C-SM sarja 28 games 43+33=76 (2.69 PPG), B-SM sarja 10 games 2+4=6 (0.60 PPG)
2014-2015 B-SM sarja 41 games 39+45=84 (2.05 PPG) (He played almost whole year in B-SM and still all time second best PPG in his age group, which is my opinion amazing to keep that tempo all the time), A-SM sarja 7 games 2+3=5 (0.71 PPG)

So Eeli have very good junior points in Finland and now when he goes to USHL he is so much closer to scouts looking him and judging against other players in his draft. In my view it's very good decision to go USHL. Also he is just only 16 years old, so he can easily grow few cents to 10+ cents and when is his draft he could be 185-190cm, but if he show good things, put lot of points and don't grow anymore, he have good height already and that's not problem at all, only he can improve situation to growing. But if he can be more or close PPG USHL he can improve his stock a lot. In my view he has tools to be top10 2017 draft.

So next summer height 182-185, PPG or close that and next year height 182-190cm, OHL 1,5-2.0 + PPG in OHL (i hope he will move OHL-WHL next year) and he will be very high in 2017 draft.

 

[Tormentor]

Three questions for Tormentor (or anyone else with a memory that goes back to ~2008):

1) Since skating is a weakness for both Tolvanen and Pulkkinen, whose skating is better: Tolvanen's today or Pulkkinen's at the same age?

2) Did Pulkkinen play in the Hlinka as an underager? I know he did really well as an underager at the u18 championships, but that was on Granlund's wing.

3)(Slightly OT, but this seems as good a place as any)How applicable are comparisons of today's Finnish junior players with those like Pulkkinen? If I remember correctly, Pulkkinen, Granlund and Rajala were the first group of Finnish junior players in years to come along and really tear apart the junior leagues as underagers. How much of their gaudy point totals were a result of the general weakness of the 91,90, and 89 age groups that they were playing against? Finnish prospects have improved dramatically at the top end (ie NHL draft material) since that time. Has the average level of play in Finland's junior leagues increased as well?

My point is, if Pulkkinen and Tolvanen both scored 2 points-per-game in the u18 league in their draft- minus 2 seasons, all else being the same, are those accomplishments roughly equal? Or is 2 ppg in the Finnish u18 league more impressive in 2014-15 than it was in 2007-08? This isn't so much about Tolvanen, just about numbers in general.

1) I’d say that Pulkkinen was a stronger skater in terms of power output. Tolvanen's technique might be prettier in some aspects. I’m not sure if skating is a clear weakness for either Tolvanen or Pulkkinen, it’s just that small somewhat one-dimensional forwards like them benefit greatly from excellent mobility at the highest level.

2) It’s possible that Pulkkinen didn’t play at Hlinka as an underager, he had some injury problems early on during the 2008-2009 season. Pulkkinen benefited from often playing with guys like Granlund and Rajala on the U17 and U18 national team, no doubt. That said, he was a great offensive talent in his own right. Last season Tolvanen was just an average Joe when playing a year up with the national team and the recent Hlinka Cup was no different. A truly special talent would stand out no matter who he plays with or what line he’s on. Tolvanen wasn’t the worst 2017 eligible prospect on that recent Finnish Hlinka Cup team, but he failed to outperform guys like Välimäki, Jokiharju, Vesalainen and Salo.

3) The Finnish 89- and 90-born age groups were bad in terms of top prospects, but I don’t think the level of play was any worse in U18 league during that time compared to now. Nowadays the most promising prospects move a bit more frequently to play against older competition, so it’s possible that the level of play might even be a tad lower in comparison.

What I’m slightly worried about is the level of play in our Jr.A (U20) league. There are now 16 proper pro teams in Finland with Jokerit and 15 Liiga teams, that’s more than ever before. Another thing is that there are more Finns playing abroad than probably ever before. What this means is that our Jr.A league is drained of every half decent player pretty much the first minute they are capable of playing with men in Liiga or Mestis. The number of Jr.A teams is up to 17 teams for this upcoming season, some of the games played in that league are going to be quite dreadful to watch I imagine, you’re not going to see any real talent on the ice.

Also he is just only 16 years old, so he can easily grow few cents to 10+ cents and when is his draft he could be 185-190cm

My guess is that Tolvanen's real height is roughly 175cm (5'9'') right now and I doubt he's going to grow much if at all anymore. He developed earlier than many of his peers.

 

[IFK]

My guess is that Tolvanen's real height is roughly 175cm (5'9'') right now and I doubt he's going to grow much if at all anymore. He developed earlier than many of his peers.

Strong words without content, there is nothing to back up your guessing. Why he is listed 178cm and your guessing him 175cm (Eeli Tolvanen conspiracy?), don't sound very convincing? Also people grow and many a lot in 16 to 20 years, some even after that. Especially boys have usually huge growing in 16-20.

Actually i laugh a lot for your evaluation of his growing, i was like WHAT??? One of the laughable opinion what i have seen here in long time and this have nothing to do that you have usually good general knowledge to prospects. There is nothing fact or even close fact for your evaluation, it just guessing his height what he is now (he is listed 178cm, so maybe we take all players 3cm away) and he have percentage terms a greater chance with a huge gap growing height than that he not growing anymore... Huh, huh.

 

[Tormentor]

Strong words without content, there is nothing to back up your guessing. Why he is listed 178cm and your guessing him 175cm (Eeli Tolvanen conspiracy?), don't sound very convincing? Also people grow and many a lot in 16 to 20 years, some even after that. Especially boys have usually huge growing in 16-20.

Tolvanen’s growth has clearly slowed down which means that he’s very likely at the back end of his growth spurt. It’s highly unlikely that we’re going to see any substantial growth anymore. There are late bloomers who continue to grow slowly to late teens, but the build of Tolvanen’s upper body doesn’t suggest towards this option, he’s well developed for his age. Tolvanen has two older brothers and both are average height or slightly below that, this is yet another predictor which goes against your ridiculous talk about him possibly ending up 185-190cm tall. There are several players on that Finnish Hlinka Cup roster who have some air in their measurements, it’s really not that uncommon to see 2-3cm added to the height, especially with these shorter players.

 

[IFK]

Tolvanen has two older brothers and both are average height or slightly below that, this is yet another predictor which goes against your ridiculous talk about him possibly ending up 185-190cm tall.

I think percentage terms he have greater chance to grow 185cm or more against that he's not growing or stays in that 178cm (which is still ok height to NHL player). He has easily room to grow 1-3cm every year before 20, so then he still would be minimum 182cm tall. Boys grow later than girls and many just when they are 20. Like Vesa-Matti Loiri (famous Finnis actor and singer) says, he was always the small one and when he was 19 he say that he was 170cm and only one year he grow size what he is now, 182cm or something.

You say Eeli is 175cm, i don't believe that at all, it's some crazy conspiracy talking which is ridiculous. This Highlights video shows that he is tall (not monster) or at least average height against other players in the ice, so i say strong 178cm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1JZJ_iIh0

 

[kelsier]

Really hard to tell much about this kid, especially due not seeing the latest Hlinka tournament. Those stats are still very impressive and judging by the youtube vid he does seem to posses a really nice shot and high level of skill (with the puck). Of course highlight reel is just a highlight reel. I'm guessing it's a bit early to draw conclusions either way. If, however his growth stalls like it did with Saarela who also had very mature physics early on, that will be a major consern.

 

[kelsier]

I think percentage terms he have greater chance to grow 185cm or more against that he's not growing or stays in that 178cm (which is still ok height to NHL player). He has easily room to grow 1-3cm every year before 20, so then he still would be minimum 182cm tall. Boys grow later than girls and many just when they are 20. Like Vesa-Matti Loiri (famous Finnis actor and singer) says, he was always the small one and when he was 19 he say that he was 170cm and only one year he grow size what he is now, 182cm or something.

You say Eeli is 175cm, i don't believe that at all, it's some crazy conspiracy talking which is ridiculous. This Highlights video shows that he is tall (not monster) or at least average height against other players in the ice, so i say strong 178cm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1JZJ_iIh0

Don't think there's much if any reasons for conspiracy theories and I'm sure Tormentor wants him to succeed just as much as you do. Rather seems more like a neutral and honest observation of a player, even if it sounds harsh. Also to be honest, most 'kids' stop growing when they turn 18 or 19 if not sooner.

 

[thomast]

I think percentage terms he have greater chance to grow 185cm or more against that he's not growing or stays in that 178cm (which is still ok height to NHL player). He has easily room to grow 1-3cm every year before 20, so then he still would be minimum 182cm tall. Boys grow later than girls and many just when they are 20. Like Vesa-Matti Loiri (famous Finnis actor and singer) says, he was always the small one and when he was 19 he say that he was 170cm and only one year he grow size what he is now, 182cm or something.

You say Eeli is 175cm, i don't believe that at all, it's some crazy conspiracy talking which is ridiculous. This Highlights video shows that he is tall (not monster) or at least average height against other players in the ice, so i say strong 178cm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tV1JZJ_iIh0

Depends on person. I was 6'1 at age of 13-14 and never grew after that (Maybe couple of cm max). My Brother was still like 5'8 at age of 16 and grew after that till he was 19-20 yo and is now about 6'1 too. It's stupid to make any predictions about height.

 

[HockeyHistorian]

It doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether he is 175 cm or 185 cm (though I doubt he will ever be 185 cm). These size debates are a tedious read and they're everywhere. If he is good enough, he is good enough. Height makes some difference, yes, but even then it mostly effects his draft position.

However, it would seem that he has the tools to succeed though, his season was simply dominant to a degree that one rarely sees. Hopefully he'll dazzle in USHL.

 

[IFK]

Don't think there's much if any reasons for conspiracy theories and I'm sure Tormentor wants him to succeed just as much as you do. Rather seems more like a neutral and honest observation of a player, even if it sounds harsh. Also to be honest, most 'kids' stop growing when they turn 18 or 19 if not sooner.

Ok, helping guy or fan boy comes to accompany to Tormentor.

I don't have anything big in this case. Yes, it would be good if he pan out to very good player, but i just cant take that "Tolvanen" is 175cm and he wont grow anymore seriously, that's very ridiculous and sounds that Tormentor don't know nothing his height and he want to be some kind fortune-teller. In percentage terms, boys usually grows cents to 16-20 against that they not, if we take all boys in the western world. That's just ridiculous guessing and there is non truth in that Tormentor guessing, only absurd speculation.

For me, it's ok, if he wont grow, i don't have anything against that (i'm not Tolvanen fan), but if you take every 16 years old western country, then in percentage terms they will grow 16-20 lot of cents or at least one cent in a year, so why Tolvanen wont grow - that is WTF claim? I don't say he will grow to 185-190cm, but there is more chance to that he grows 185-190cm than that he wont grow anymore at all.

Then, i am too happy our Laine and Puljujärvi, so there is nothing that i try to boost or hype Tolvanen, i only hope all the best Tolvanen, i don't have a dollar to catch in him. Laine and Puljujärvi, these our 2 diamonds interest me most now so i only check sometimes how Tolvanen perform USHL, but i don't have any case of him and he will pan out or not (i hope yes, but it's ok if not). My main thing was to answer that absolutely ridiculous claim his height now and future that he wont crow anymore or only a little, that caught my eye and i have to catch that and say something, that Tormentor guessing is so strong bull **** that i haven't seen nothing like that here in a long time.

 

[kelsier]

Ok, helping guy or fan boy comes to accompany to Tormentor.

I don't have anything big in this case. Yes, it would be good if he pan out to very good player, but i just cant take that "Tolvanen" is 175cm and he wont grow anymore seriously, that's very ridiculous and sounds that Tormentor don't know nothing his height and he want to be some kind fortune-teller. In percentage terms, boys usually grows cents to 16-20 against that they not, if we take all boys in the western world. That's just ridiculous guessing and there is non truth in that Tormentor guessing, only absurd speculation.

For me, it's ok, if he wont grow, i don't have anything against that (i'm not Tolvanen fan), but if you take every 16 years old western country, then in percentage terms they will grow 16-20 lot of cents or at least one cent in a year, so why Tolvanen wont grow - that is WTF claim? I don't say he will grow to 185-190cm, but there is more chance to that he grows 185-190cm than that he wont grow anymore at all.

Then, i am too happy our Laine and Puljujärvi, so there is nothing that i try to boost or hype Tolvanen, i only hope all the best Tolvanen, i don't have a dollar to catch in him. Laine and Puljujärvi, these our 2 diamonds interest me most now so i only check sometimes how Tolvanen perform USHL, but i don't have any case of him and he will pan out or not (i hope yes, but it's ok if not). My main thing was to answer that absolutely ridiculous claim his height now and future that he wont crow anymore or only a little, that caught my eye and i have to catch that and say something, that Tormentor guessing is so strong bull **** that i haven't seen nothing like that here in a long time.

Apardon? Insulting people over the boards won't exactly help a case (which ever that may be).

The point was very clear, which was that his growth had stalled. This isn't generalization of how tall a youngster can get but rather commonly known fact that when height growth stalls, the kids do not often grow much taller than they are. Tormentor pointed out to his siblings and provided a valid counterpart and drew his conclusions which is far more than this 'yadayada what are you talking about?!'. Also as I said before, Saarela is a another good example if you bother looking into his physical developement. I don't see anyone claiming he won't grow so not actually sure where your coming or going with this. Sure it's speculation, but then again you have some facts to make a base argument.

I'd urge you to chill down and stop acting childish. After all we all want the kid to succeed.

 

[IceHockeyDude]

I hope Tolvanen will continue developing and wouldn't mind seeing him growing even a little.

A bit Offtopic but how would you rank top 3-5 forwards from Finland for 2017 draft? I've only heard about Vesalainen..
The dmen on the other hand look to continue the high level of Finnish dmen prospects for 2016 draft with Välimäki, Vaakanainen and Salo.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

Would be great to know what are those facts, which Tormentor establish his ludicrous opinions that Tolvanen is 175cm and won't grow anymore.
All of us can't know exactly, how much Tolvanen will grow in future.
But he'll grow more, how much it'll be we can't know that.

 

[ChicagoBullsFan]

I hope Tolvanen will continue developing and wouldn't mind seeing him growing even a little.

A bit Offtopic but how would you rank top 3-5 forwards from Finland for 2017 draft? I've only heard about Vesalainen..
The dmen on the other hand look to continue the high level of Finnish dmen prospects for 2016 draft with Välimäki, Vaakanainen and Salo.

Everyone hopes that.
But i don't have any idea, what-kind league USHL is.

But i guess it'll be something between mestis, and A juniors league in Finland.
Other Finnish forward prospects who's eligible 2017 NHL draft, are Joni Ikonen and Sami Moilanen, also Linus Nyman is elibigle 2017 draft.

 

[Tormentor]

Would be great to know what are those facts, which Tormentor establish his ludicrous opinions that Tolvanen is 175cm and won't grow anymore.

Perhaps you should learn to read more carefully before you post here. This is what I wrote: "My guess is that Tolvanen's real height is roughly 175cm (5'9'') right now and I doubt he's going to grow much if at all anymore".

I think it's possible that Tolvanen won't grow anymore, but I certainly didn't write that his growth has stopped for certain. The reason why I think Tolvanen is roughly 175cm tall right now is because he looks that way, he's not a tall guy.

Toni Rajala, Teemu Pulkkinen, Mikael Granlund, Markus Granlund, Ville Järveläinen, Teuvo Teräväinen, Jonatan Tanus, Artturi Lehkonen, Aleksi Saarela and Sebastian Aho. The common factor with these former junior stars is that they were all smallish and none of them grew to be that tall. Ma.Granlund, Teräväinen, Lehkonen and maybe Aho as well might be 180cm tall, but the rest of them are below that. Ma.Granlund and Teräväinen had a really slim build when they were Tolvanen's age, so it's not that big of a surprise that they continued to grow some more even after the age of 16. Pulkkinen, Tanus and Saarela were rather stocky for their age at 16 and their growth after that was very close to nonexistent.

Ten guys is starting to be a fairly significant sample size and none of them experienced miraculous growth in their late teens. I think I'm just being a realist with my expectations about Tolvanen's future growth.

 

[IFK]

Perhaps you should learn to read more carefully before you post here. This is what I wrote: "My guess is that Tolvanen's real height is roughly 175cm (5'9'') right now and I doubt he's going to grow much if at all anymore".

I think it's possible that Tolvanen won't grow anymore, but I certainly didn't write that his growth has stopped for certain. The reason why I think Tolvanen is roughly 175cm tall right now is because he looks that way, he's not a tall guy.

Toni Rajala, Teemu Pulkkinen, Mikael Granlund, Markus Granlund, Ville Järveläinen, Teuvo Teräväinen, Jonatan Tanus, Artturi Lehkonen, Aleksi Saarela and Sebastian Aho. The common factor with these former junior stars is that they were all smallish and none of them grew to be that tall. Ma.Granlund, Teräväinen, Lehkonen and maybe Aho as well might be 180cm tall, but the rest of them are below that. Ma.Granlund and Teräväinen had a really slim build when they were Tolvanen's age, so it's not that big of a surprise that they continued to grow some more even after the age of 16. Pulkkinen, Tanus and Saarela were rather stocky for their age at 16 and their growth after that was very close to nonexistent.

Ten guys is starting to be a fairly significant sample size and none of them experienced miraculous growth in their late teens. I think I'm just being a realist with my expectations about Tolvanen's future growth.

That really sounds ridiculous. Tolvanen is listed 178cm and my opinion he's look strong 178cm when you compare him to his team mates. He is taller than most of them or just as tall at least. It doesn't matter what have happened to Rajala, Pulkkinen, Granlund etc. cause percentage terms boys generally grow age 16-20 when you take average boy in western countries.

That "i doubt he's going to crow" sounds just as stupid than if i say he will be 195cm when his 20 years old. I say, it's very likely that he will crow if you compare general 16 years old westerns. So it's more likely he will grow next 4 years 1-3cm in a year, so he will be then at least 182cm against that he will not crow at all.

 

[Tormentor]

That really sounds ridiculous. Tolvanen is listed 178cm and my opinion he's look strong 178cm when you compare him to his team mates.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then.

It doesn't matter what have happened to Rajala, Pulkkinen, Granlund etc. cause percentage terms boys generally grow age 16-20 when you take average boy in western countries.

With the help of abundant food and modern medicine young Finns nowadays grow faster than ever before and as a result their growth also stops earlier than ever before. This is especially true with boys. It's becoming really rare to see someone growing height at the age of 19 and 20.

Hockey is a physical contact sport and you need to have at least close to comparable physical maturity to your opponents if you want to have a kind of impact to the game as Tolvanen had last season in Jr.B (U18). These smallish wunderkinds quite often reach puberty earlier than average and as a result their growth also stops earlier than averege, this shouldn't be that difficult to understand. There are exceptions to this, like Markus Granlund and Teuvo Teräväinen for example, but with them the results weren't quite as stellar early on because they were scrawny and relatively undeveloped physically, this isn't the case with Tolvanen.

 

[BusQuets]

There's no way Tolvanen is 5'9 unless he's playing with a team full of midgets.

 

[Tormentor]

There's no way Tolvanen is 5'9 unless he's playing with a team full of midgets.

Maybe I'm wrong in this matter since so many of you feel adamant about his height.

That said, Joni Ikonen and Oliver Kinnunen were often Tolvanen's linemates last season and neither of them are particularly tall. Furthermore, there are quite a lot of shorter guys playing in Jr.B, so it doesn't always require that much to appear average height in that company.