billingtons ghost
Registered User
- Nov 29, 2010
- 10,576
- 6,835
Stats monkey?!
I am a regular monkey, thank you very much!
I get what you’re saying in that we have such a brilliant collection of top goaltenders - I think I have 7 in my top-35 players - that having a conversation between two of them might be too narrowly focused, because it’s like debating Crosby/Ovechkin without Malkin or Gretzky/Lemieux without Messier (don’t @ me).
But of the top goaltenders, I (and probably many others) feel that some of the seven answers you hear regarding best goaltender are more right than others.
I think there’s a reason you’ll hear Roy and Plante in the context of the Beliveau/Harvey/Hull/Richard block of career value or Sawchuk and Hasek in the context of the otherworldly five-year prime discussions, but Brodeur is almost entirely relegated to historical discussions exclusively with other goaltenders. I’d say Glenn Hall and Ken Dryden are in that same boat.
Assuming Martin Brodeur is your selection for greatest goaltender of all-time, how many skaters are we saying are better than literally every goaltender? For me, Martin Brodeur is about as good as Nicklas Lidstrom. Maybe it’s because they played at the same time, but I just see too many parallels between the two.
Now do you see Martin Brodeur at a higher level than this (Lidstrom)? Do you see him as a reasonable comparison point to Jean Beliveau and Maurice Richard the way many do of Patrick Roy? Or do you think the high-water mark for goaltending is more #15-25 range than #5-10?
I think your Lidstrom comparison is fair - I just think he's pretty criminally underrated if you ask the right questions - especially since no one ever SAW New Jersey games unless they were in a playoff run.
Hasek is far and away the most spectacular of any goalie in this discussion, and perhaps had to be - and had, as you say, peak other worldly stats. If you asked me who I thought was the most fun to watch, I'd answer Hasek. But the question becomes - as someone pointed out - Hasek was supposedly the workhorse, yet Brodeur showed up in 70+ games 12 times to Hasek's one and played 500 more games (and at a high level) than Hasek in the NHL.
Roy is undeniably the greatest playoff goaltender, right? Brodeur had 7 of his first 9 seasons with a playoffs GAA of under 2.00. Roy had 3 in his 19 year career. Brodeur had 7 shutouts in one playoff season - neither Roy(4) nor Hasek (6) matched that. He played in 40 (20%) fewer playoff games than Roy, but had a higher SV% and lower GAA than Roy for his playoff career.
Brodeur had almost DOUBLE the regular season shutouts of Roy and had 300 more wins than Hasek - they made a rule change in the way the game is actually played specifically because of him and they may change it back after he's gone. I'm not sure many sports have done that for certain athletes.
Those are pretty big numbers to sweep under the rug - and he went to the Cup Finals playing at a high level even in his 19th season. I'm not sure why he doesn't get the same press -
Someone made the comparison to Gordie Howe based upon longevity - but the reality was that Brodeur didn't play over 5 decades - his career spanned roughly the same time as Roy's and Hasek's - he just was available for more games during each season and put up more impressive numbers during that time and had to be just as good to attain the same stats - just more frequently during more nights in a single season. That alone should be worthy of recognition - not a reason to penalize or belittle the accomplishments.