Roy or Hasek?

[beoser]

As a fan of both goalies, and having seen them both play, I've never quite understood why someone would rate Roy over Hasek. Yes he did win some Con Smyth trophies, but all in all Hasek's resume is more impressive.

Take into consideration. While Roy was on top, his teams were powerhouses. While Hasek was on top, his teams where not as impressive. While Roy was able to win some Smyth trophies on these powerhouse teams, Hasek was unbelievable and won the Hart a few times as well as the Vezina 6 times in 8 years.

Who would you rank as the best?

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[Bustedprospect]

Some Conn Smythe? It's a big trophy and he got 3 of them its a pretty big deal in my opinion. Colorado was a strong team but in 86 and 93 those teams weren't really that strong. That being said i have Hasek rank ahead but its close since Hasek didnt have a full career either in the NHL.

 

[Albatros]

Roy helped introduce the profly style and deservedly gets credit for that, but Hašek was the better goaltender and it's not even that close.

 

[Neutrinos]

Hasek

 

[The Panther]

Ah, the eternal debate.

Can I say...


Sawchuk?

 

[Asheville]

Never sits well with me that, when on equal-ish footing, Hasek typically got the better of Roy head-to-head in hardware and games directly against one another on all levels.....despite Patrick getting a 7-yr head start in the NHL.

Not fully sure the 3 Smythes are enough to trump all of that.

 

[Ivan13]

Yeah, Roy's Habs were real world-beaters.

 

[Sentinel]

Hasek.

 

[bobholly39]

As a fan of both goalies, and having seen them both play, I've never quite understood why someone would rate Roy over Hasek. Yes he did win some Con Smyth trophies, but all in all Hasek's resume is more impressive.

Take into consideration. While Roy was on top, his teams were powerhouses. While Hasek was on top, his teams where not as impressive. While Roy was able to win some Smyth trophies on these powerhouse teams, Hasek was unbelievable and won the Hart a few times as well as the Vezina 6 times in 8 years.

Who would you rank as the best?

Who came first, the chicken or the egg?

I've always felt Roy is the biggest "winner" in history of the sport. I feel as though he was the reason why his teams were powerhouses, and winners. He made those teams win, and he should get a lot of the credit.

I think in terms of pure puck stopping ability - Hasek had him beat. His peak is insane, probably the best ever for a goalie. But so much of a goalie's job is "mental" - and when it counted, in important games/moments/series - Roy delivered big time, moreso than Hasek. So I rank his overall legacy/career above.

 

[Spirit of 67]

I'm in the Roy camp.

The reality is, both were dominant. Either is a fine choice here.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

It's harder to find weaknesses in Roy's resume than any other historical goalie.

 

[Doctor No]

it's not even that close.

No offense intended, but the people who say that this isn't close (on either side) are exactly those who shouldn't be listened to.

It's close.

 

[The Panther]

The reality is, both were dominant. Either is a fine choice here.

That's right.

I think we'd all agree that Roy played for better NHL teams (overlooking Hasek in Detroit on that All-Star team), but of course Roy also won more Stanley Cups, as he should have.

Just for fun, I thought to take a look at how Roy and Hasek's teams did with them in net vs. with all other back-ups in net. Just to see how the team records, better or worse, compare. Seems fair to do this based on each's 'prime' seasons, so let's say each guy's six seasons of being a 1st-team or 2nd-team All Star (Hasek was 1st-team six times, Roy four 1st and two 2nds), just for fun:

Roy's six All Star seasons are: 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, and 2002.
Hasek's six All Star seasons are: 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, 1999, and 2001 (note: weirdly, this doesn't include 1995-96 when he had the NHL's best save-percentage, but I guess the Sabres were struggling that season)

In his six selected seasons, Roy's teams went 180-93-42 with him in net.
Then, they went 84-62-20 without Roy in net.

In his six selected seasons, Hasek's teams went 186-119-54 with him in net.
Then, they went 38-50-13 without Hasek in net.

In percentages, then:

Roy in net: 63.8%
Roy not in net: 56.6%

Hasek in net: 59.3%
Hasek not in net: 44.1%

Obviously, both were key to their teams in these All-Star seasons. But based on these (very limited) sample sizes, it does appear to be the case that "Roy played for the better teams" is very true. His team's chances to win dropped about 7% when the back-up started in his most dominant seasons, while Hasek's team's chances dropped about 15% when the back-up started.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Hasek

He was on a level above both Roy and Brodeur with all 3 playing in their primes together.

The 2 seasons prior to Hasek breaking out Roy had won a Cup, Smythe, Vezina, Jennings, AS-1 and 2nd in Hart voting.......He wouldn't win another award or AS team for the next 8 years (Hasek's peak)

As for the playoffs argument, the lack of success in Buffalo was not due to Hasek. Look at 94...Buffalo goes out in Rd1 in 7 games, despite Hasek's 1.61 GAA and .950 sv%. He carried that team on their 99 Finals run as well going for .939 and 1.77

I'd also argue you can make a Smythe case for him in 02. 1.86 and .920 with 6 shut outs


Hasek's run is as good for a goalie as Orr's run was for defenders

6x Vezina...(8x Norris)
2x Hart...(3x Hart)
6x AS-1...(8x AS-1)
6x led in sv% ...(5x led in assists)
2x led in GAA...(2x led in points)

 

[Canadiens1958]

It's harder to find weaknesses in Roy's resume than any other historical goalie.

True amongst Roy's contemporaries. Compared to "One Goalie Era" goalies especially Sawchuk,Plante,Hall there are the following weaknesses.

Plante and Hall have much better SV% numbers, Sawchuk is close.

All three played more games per season at the start of their career,including complete 70 game seasons, than Roy who peaked at 68. Mainly without masks, heavier equipment, no positional coaching and scheduling disadvantages.

 

[psycat]

Close but clearly Hasek for me. Not that I would really have a huge problem with somebody chosing Roy.

FWIW they are also #1 and #2 amongst goalies for me.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Take into consideration. While Roy was on top, his teams were powerhouses. While Hasek was on top, his teams where not as impressive. While Roy was able to win some Smyth trophies on these powerhouse teams, Hasek was unbelievable and won the Hart a few times as well as the Vezina 6 times in 8 years.

I would ask to re-evaluate the effect of playing on “powerhouse” and subsequent contention for the Hart Trophy. Consider that both finished top-5 in Hart voting five times. Roy’s best placements came when Montreal rated 14/22 in offense but still won their division (1992) and when Colorado rated 18/30 but still won their division. In the latter example, he was still seen as a better player than the Hart winner (Jose Theodore) in All-Star voting conducted by the same voting group that gave Theodore the Hart.

Just as Dominik Hasek could have a Conn Smythe if voting trends did not dictate looking at a Dallas Star, Patrick Roy could have a Hart Trophy if the media was not tasked with assessing value separate from performance. Raw counting does neither a favor when looking at the trophies where they each have multiples to the other’s none.

But a strict look at binary wins/losses in Hart Trophies and Vezina Trophies are not the only measure of a goaltender’s regular season performances (Roy’s 15 seasons ranked top-10 in save percentage, for instance) - or even the only way to look at the votes themselves, as not all Hart/Vezina races feature the same level of competition. Two of Roy’s seasons where he ranked top-5 in Hart voting didn’t even add to his three Vezina Trophies, while two of Hasek’s Vezina wins came at the low end of Vezina support (54-57% voting share). That’s 8/27 and 9/30 first-place votes; less than 1/3 voters thought Hasek was the best goaltender and yet he won both Vezina Trophies due to weak competition.

If given the choice of Hasek’s 1994, 1995, 1997, 1998, and 1999 regular seasons or Roy’s 1989, 1990, 1992, 1994, and 2002 regular seasons, I’ll take Hasek. But given that those 300 games of Roy’s represent less than a quarter of his NHL career which was abnormally healthy, consistent, and usually led to a deep playoff run thanks in large part to his performances, I’ll take Roy for the marathon.

But just as one can have Beliveau, Harvey, and Richard all extremely close, one can rate two goaltenders of this caliber extremely close as well.

 

[quoipourquoi]

He was on a level above both Roy and Brodeur with all 3 playing in their primes together.

Just because three players are in the league at the same time does not mean they are in their primes at the same time. Roy was a 5x consecutive All-Star from 1988-1992, while Martin Brodeur was a 5x consecutive All-Star from 2003-2008. Dominik Hasek’s window fell in-between. That they were relevant in the periods of time immediately before and after their primes probably shouldn’t be used to prop up someone based on their names.

The 2 seasons prior to Hasek breaking out Roy had won a Cup, Smythe, Vezina, Jennings, AS-1 and 2nd in Hart voting.......He wouldn't win another award or AS team for the next 8 years (Hasek's peak)

But he did go 290-173-67 in the regular season while Dominik Hasek was in Buffalo from 1993-2001 (most wins) and 86-46 in the playoffs (just 2 wins shy of the Billy Smith record he broke), winning 3 Stanley Cups, 2 President’s Trophies, 6 Division Titles, 2 Conn Smythe Trophies, while producing the best four-round EvE (1979-2018) and the best post-expansion Stanley Cup Final EvE (1968-2018). THN named him best goaltender on three occasions in this window, as well as the only goaltender in their list of franchise players in a fourth year.

You make it sound like Dominik Hasek prevented Patrick Roy from being relevant in-between his All-Star selections in 1992 and 2002, when instead he was productive enough not to be completely overshadowed by a 6x Vezina winner.

As for the playoffs argument, the lack of success in Buffalo was not due to Hasek. Look at 94...Buffalo goes out in Rd1 in 7 games, despite Hasek's 1.61 GAA and .950 sv%. He carried that team on their 99 Finals run as well going for .939 and 1.77

I don’t know that people necessarily fault Hasek - other than in 1997.

Though the .950 in Round 1 in 1994 means less than its shock factor, as it wasn’t even the best save percentage a goaltender posted in Round 1 (look at Mike Richter). It just doesn’t get better or worse since his team lost. It’s like Fleury’s 14 points in 7 games in 1995.

As for carrying the 1999 Sabres to the Finals, they were the 26th best offensive Finalist of the 75 I looked at from 1979-2017.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...-by-goaltending-gve-and-tve-analysis.2452059/

I'd also argue you can make a Smythe case for him in 02. 1.86 and .920 with 6 shut outs

By all means, make one.

 

[Thenameless]

Never sits well with me that, when on equal-ish footing, Hasek typically got the better of Roy head-to-head in hardware and games directly against one another on all levels.....despite Patrick getting a 7-yr head start in the NHL.

Not fully sure the 3 Smythes are enough to trump all of that.

I'm in the Hasek camp too. Besides the obvious Vezina and Hart count, it's their big games played against each other that sticks out for me. It might be a small sample size, but NFL legends are made on 14-16 game seasons, one-game playoffs, and a one-game Super Bowl. For all of Roy's "clutchness" he seemed to come up short when they had to face each other in big games.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm in the Hasek camp too. Besides the obvious Vezina and Hart count, it's their big games played against each other that sticks out for me. It might be a small sample size, but NFL legends are made on 14-16 game seasons, one-game playoffs, and a one-game Super Bowl. For all of Roy's "clutchness" he seemed to come up short when they had to face each other in big games.

Pre-lockout, Dominik Hasek went 2-7 in the regular season against Ed Belfour’s teams with an .874 on 247 shots. He also lost a Stanley Cup Final to Ed Belfour’s Dallas Stars, and a starting role to Ed Belfour in 1990.

But it might be a small sample size too. And I don’t know how many of the 247 shots were taken by Ed Belfour.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

...

i get it, your a Roy guy, but its no coincidence that Roy went from collecting trophies like candy to being shut out overnight...and it just so happened to coincide with Hasek's breakout.

the 8 years before Hasek he had 4 Jennings, 2 Smythe, 3 Vezina and 3x AS-1, then he stopped dead in his tracks and wins nothing for the next 7 years. That doesn't just happen out of the blue.

As you pointed out, Roy didnt drop off over those 7 years. His stats and win totals stayed the same. It's just that Hasek outperformed him by that much. He really did lap the field over his peak.

I get the longevity argument, however that is unfair to Hasek. It isnt his fault he didnt play in the NHL until 26. He didnt ask to be stuck behind the curtain.

As for the primes not overlapping argument...Hasek and Roy are the same age, they most certainly did.

 

[quoipourquoi]

i get it, your a Roy guy, but its no coincidence that Roy went from collecting trophies like candy to being shut out overnight...and it just so happened to coincide with Hasek's breakout.

the 8 years before Hasek he had 4 Jennings, 2 Smythe, 3 Vezina and 3x AS-1, then he stopped dead in his tracks and wins nothing for the next 7 years. That doesn't just happen out of the blue.

As you pointed out, Roy didnt drop off over those 7 years. His stats and win totals stayed the same. It's just that Hasek outperformed him by that much. He really did lap the field over his peak.

I get the longevity argument, however that is unfair to Hasek. It isnt his fault he didnt play in the NHL until 26. He didnt ask to be stuck behind the curtain.

As for the primes not overlapping argument...Hasek and Roy are the same age, they most certainly did.

But Roy’s statistics did not stay the same from 1987-1992 to 1993-2001.

A player doesn’t go from ranking 5, 1, 1, 1, 2, 1 (1987-1992) in save percentage to 8, 3, NR, 10, 4, 7, 8, 10, NR (1993-2001) because of the introduction of a single competitor.

So no, their primes did not overlap. Sawchuk was born the same year as Plante, but that doesn’t mean he can’t have an earlier prime. Messier was a week older than Gretzky and he hit his prime in the late-1980s and early-1990s as Gretzky was exiting his.

There are no rules as it pertains to age and prime. If there were rules, Ed Belfour is another 1965 goaltender who over 23 games in 1988-89 proved not to be NHL caliber in a season when Patrick Roy went 33-5, won his 2nd consecutive save percentage title, and went to his 2nd Stanley Cup Final. Some players hit their prime later.

I get the longevity argument, however that is unfair to Hasek. It isnt his fault he didnt play in the NHL until 26. He didnt ask to be stuck behind the curtain.

I do not recall making a longevity argument. I recall saying Roy was abnormally healthy and consistent in the goaltending position.

 

[Thenameless]

Pre-lockout, Dominik Hasek went 2-7 in the regular season against Ed Belfour’s teams with an .874 on 247 shots. He also lost a Stanley Cup Final to Ed Belfour’s Dallas Stars, and a starting role to Ed Belfour in 1990.

But it might be a small sample size too. And I don’t know how many of the 247 shots were taken by Ed Belfour.

I'm okay with that. After all, it's still a team game. Belfour was on a pretty good Chicago team and a Stanley Cup Dallas team.

When we look at Roy vs Hasek, I agree that Detroit was a bit stronger than Colorado, but Colorado also wasn't Hasek's Buffalo going up against a stacked Dallas team. Detroit and Colorado were "close enough" that a clutch goalie with his history of carrying Montreal underdogs to Cup wins, should be good enough to do the job. He wasn't. And his gaffe due to his own arrogance made it worse (and I tend to like players that are confident to the point of arrogance - love Muhammad Ali, Deion Sanders, Wilt Chamberlain, but I digress). Then we have the whole Nagano thing. And here, I'm pretty sure that we can both agree that Canada is almost never an underdog when it comes to best-on-best tournaments. Roy played well. Hasek was even better.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

its no coincidence that Roy went from collecting trophies like candy to being shut out overnight...and it just so happened to coincide with Hasek's breakout.

are you sure there isn’t another explanation?

roy’s peak was 7 years, 1988 to 1994. one of the top three goalies every year except one, 3 vezinas.

hasek’s peak was 8 years, 1994 to 2001. 6 vezinas.

is there a common denominator? i see two:

both guys maintained an incredible level for 7-8 years, with an off year here or there (roy hadone, hasek had two). seriously, who can be that good consistently for more than a 6 in 7-8 stretch?* then it’s not like another guy came along and they were finishing #2 or 3 for a while. post-hasek, roy played his way out of montreal, then went 8, 3, 5, 8, 6, 5 before making it back to the top. you can say that hasek prevented brodeur from taking two vezinas in the late 90s but it’s not like hasek was some kind of kryptonite that stole roy’s powers and prevented him from “sniffing” vezinas that random washington goalies won. your argument makes no sense. after 2001, hasek himself went 6, 7, 5. so clearly both guys fell off from their peaks.

the other mitigating factor is that both guys went to superstar-laden teams where they got less of the credit.

but if you want to make the argument that hasek came along and beat the same roy of 1989 or 1992, everything hinges on 1994. and you also then have to show that 94 beezer could have hung with the roy that was blowing away the league in sv%.

* so i asked, seriously, who can be that good consistently for more than a 6 in 7-8 stretch? the answer of course is brodeur. in 14 years, he finished top three 11 times. never went more than one year without a top three. 3, 2, 2, x, 3, 3, x, then the peak of his peak: 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, then x, 3. i have him behind both roy and hasek, but man that is a run.

 

[tony d]

The 2 best goalies of all time IMO. It's Roy for me but you can't go wrong with either.