Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Centers)

[seventieslord]

What was he supposed to do, trade himself to a better team?

After being raked hard over the coals for "Jagr, Jagr, Jagr", Francis is now getting skewered for a lack of team success. You can't make this stuff up.

You're claiming he took a franchise on his back and carried it for the better part of two decades! Of course it should be pointed out that he carried them nowhere.

When, as a 20 year old, he finished 4 points off pace in 7 fewer games.



When he finished 2 points short in 23 fewer games.



When he finished 12 point short in 10 fewer games.

Basically he fell short 3 times due to GP.

he fell short once due to GP. the other two times he would not have been 10-20 points ahead like you claimed.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Expectations

It's just that your post appeared to put a huge emphasis on defense and with that being the case, there's a pretty huge gap from 3rd-best defensively in this round (whoever you feel that is) and 4th-best (whoever you feel that is). right?



sounds like you rephrased it already. Please go ahead and answer it because I'm interested in your view.

Gladly. You raised the issue of expectations. Expectations are a function of past performance. We may expect a playoff performance similar to the regular season in terms of PPG. Success is a function of doing what is necessary to win.

Set aside the defensive game for now and focus strictly on the offensive. Jean Beliveau used the complete offensive toolbox during the RS and playoffs. He would score, or act as a playmaker, play outside or at the crease as was necessary for team success:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/b/belivje01.html

Joe Thornton after initially showing that he could play the slot/crease opted to play a perimeter playmaking game:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/t/thornjo01.html

yet he has the size and skill to play effectively at the crease or in the slot and force the opposition to change their defensive game creating opportunities for the Sharks that would not be reflected in the expectations that we have of Joe Thornton.

This attribute was shown by some of the other candidates this round

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

That would depend entirely on the construction of the teams, wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure he would have been the best player on quite a few of the O6 teams.

He would have been the best player on the Rangers or Blackhawks when those teams were doormats coming out of WW2, but so would Alex Delvecchio.

*actually I don't know if he'd be better than Chuck Rayner, but we'll forget about goalies for a minute

By the way, the only reason I'm continuing this discussion is because I feel like there are a few posters here who are seriously giving players credit for playing in bigger leagues, something I strongly disagree with, because league size is completely independent of the qualities of players. But you're right, some of the O6 teams were total doormats.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Didn't Francis only do it 7 times, non-consecutively? 1983, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 2000, 2002? And didn't Shane Doan do it 7 times, all consecutive? 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011?

Where are we off?

Your numbers are right. I was going off my old bio of Shane Doan from 2011:

Team scoring finishes since 1999-2000: 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 2nd, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd*

Doan actually finished first in team scoring in 2010-11 too, but when I put it together, Yandle was leading the team in scoring. So yes, Doan did lead the Coyotes in scoring 7 years in a row.

Edit: An interesting HOH project that I might take up at some point would be to show how many times a player led his team in scoring. Sundin did so 11 times, IIRC, and I think Patrik Elias is at 8, but I'm not going to look them up.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Alex Delvecchio

You have to remember the other side of the tiebreaker.

What did Delvecchio ever lead the Wings to?

As the lead center Delvecchio not Howe was instrumental in managing the defensive spacing of the team. 8 SC Finals including three Cups

 

[tarheelhockey]

You're claiming he took a franchise on his back and carried it for the better part of two decades! Of course it should be pointed out that he carried them nowhere.

He sure as hell went deeper in the playoffs than Sundin ever did (and directly over Sundin's Leafs, to boot).

he fell short once due to GP. the other two times he would not have been 10-20 points ahead like you claimed.

Two seasons in a decade where he was merely their best scorer but not by a huge margin. And I thought we nitpicked Thornton.

By the way, the only reason I'm continuing this discussion is because I feel like there are a few posters here who are seriously giving players credit for playing in bigger leagues, something I strongly disagree with, because league size is completely independent of the qualities of players.

TBH, I'm sitting here 2 hours after voting closed, seeing people make a straight-faced argument that Francis = Doan, and wondering why I'm even getting sucked into this.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

He sure as hell went deeper in the playoffs than Sundin ever did (and directly over Sundin's Leafs, to boot).



Two seasons in a decade where he was merely their best scorer but not by a huge margin. And I thought we nitpicked Thornton.



TBH, I'm sitting here 2 hours after voting closed, seeing people make a straight-faced argument that Francis = Doan, and wondering why I'm even getting sucked into this.

Fact: Francis = Doan in number of times he led his team in scoring.

It says more about the strength of a player's teammates than the player himself.

 

[quoipourquoi]

He sure as hell went deeper in the playoffs than Sundin ever did (and directly over Sundin's Leafs, to boot).

Scored same amount of points as Francis in the series despite missing Game 1 and most of the playoffs with a broken wrist. Joseph had a .937. Irbe had a .962. Taking a shot at Sundin for the Leafs not coming out on top in that playoff is ridiculous.

And watch out, Shane Doan; Sundin led his team in scoring 13 times (1993, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008).

 

[seventieslord]

He sure as hell went deeper in the playoffs than Sundin ever did (and directly over Sundin's Leafs, to boot).

what about in his second most successful playoff as team leader? what about his third? (what was his third, anyway?)

regardless, one season doesn't make a convincing case for why your statement about carrying a franchise on his back for 20 years should be taken very seriously in this round of discussion.

I mean really, how unsuccessful would a franchise have to be for that statement to be absurd? What if there was a team that made the playoffs five times in 20 years and never won a round? would you admit that carrying that franchise isn't really anything noteworthy?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

two things:

1. i haven't followed this entire thread, but did anyone give hawerchuk extra brownie points for being the face of the jets for a decade and destroying his teammates in scoring every single year but only getting out of the first round once?

2. when everyone else is disagreeing with you about your favourite player, there's probably a better chance that your homer glasses are on than that no one else saw enough of that player.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Fact: Francis = Doan in number of times he led his team in scoring.

I would like to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you're not actually buying into a point this flimsy.

Before we throw all common sense to the wind, consider:

a) We are comparing Francis' 14 seasons to Doan's 18 seasons.

b) Francis left the Whalers for a large chunk of his prime, during which he would very likely have continued to lead them in scoring.

c) Those numbers ignore 3 seasons when Francis came in 2nd because of GP effects.

d) Those numbers also ignore that Doan finished 1st because of GP effects on 3 occasions (over Ladislav Nagy and Matt Lombardi... eew.)

e) Doan was a low-end depth scorer his first 4 seasons, and even as late as age 26 he finished behind the immortal Mike Johnson on the scoring charts.


I frankly think more highly of this forum than to think it's necessary to demonstrate that Francis was a completely different tier of scorer and hockey player, in both the franchise and leaguewide context, than Shane Doan. This is a bizarre and disappointing thing to have to actually forumulate in an argument.

It says more about the strength of a player's teammates than the player himself.

This would be a lot more powerful an argument if it wasn't used to reverse effect when talking about his time in Pittsburgh.

Taking a shot at Sundin for the Leafs not coming out on top in that playoff is ridiculous.

Then hopefully it will illustrate how much MORE ridiculous it is to take a shot at Francis for the Whalers not coming out on top.

I mean really, how unsuccessful would a franchise have to be for that statement to be absurd? What if there was a team that made the playoffs five times in 20 years and never won a round? would you admit that carrying that franchise isn't really anything noteworthy?

As opposed to making the playoffs 8 times in 15 years and never winning more than 2 rounds? That's supposed to be an example of some carrying a franchise to success?

Of course, if your franchise is Hartford it's not exactly the same thing as if it's Toronto.

 

[tarheelhockey]

1. i haven't followed this entire thread, but did anyone give hawerchuk extra brownie points for being the face of the jets for a decade and destroying his teammates in scoring every single year but only getting out of the first round once?

If Hawerchuk had actually been in a dead tie with another player, that actually might have come up.

This all started with my simply saying that I find Delvecchio and Francis damn near identical, and one of the only significant things that separated them is that Francis had to shoulder the responsibility for being the sole star on his team for a large part of his career. That's not a crazy position to take, but now we're somehow talking about how Shane Doan was as important to his franchise as Francis, and lionizing Sundin for his history of playoff leadership. I honestly don't know what the hell to make of it.

 

[MadArcand]

What sort of idiocy is this Sundin talk? Sundin happened to captain a superpowered team with infinite resources and budget, how the hell is that comparable to captaining an extremely poor and weak small market team like Francis (or, hell, even Doan) did? Hartford/Carolina wasn't expected to win anything, Toronto was among Cup favorites multiple times, and always choked. Hell, Mats Gartner is an obvious 60% watered down version of a player of the Francis/Gilmour calibre, why is he even being mentioned now?

 

[sr edler]

What sort of idiocy is this Sundin talk? Sundin happened to captain a superpowered team with infinite resources and budget, how the hell is that comparable to captaining an extremely poor and weak small market team like Francis (or, hell, even Doan) did? Hartford/Carolina wasn't expected to win anything, Toronto was among Cup favorites multiple times, and always choked. Hell, Mats Gartner is an obvious 60% watered down version of a player of the Francis/Gilmour calibre, why is he even being mentioned now?

What kind of a post is this? Sundin never captained a "superpowered team" that was "Cup favorites multiple times".

Not even close. Toronto's "infinite resources" at best landed them an over the hill Mogilny. Now I like Mogilny and he was good in Toronto, but come on. You don't have to pounce on Sundin to make your own boy Francis look better. If Sundin is Gartner then Francis is Ron Nieuwendyk.

 

[unknown33]

What kind of a post is this? Sundin never captained a "superpowered team" that was "Cup favorites multiple times".

Not even close. Toronto's "infinite resources" at best landed them an over the hill Mogilny. Now I like Mogilny and he was good in Toronto, but come on. You don't have to pounce on Sundin to make your own boy Francis look better. If Sundin is Gartner then Francis is Ron Nieuwendyk.

You have to consider that Sundin is from Sweden.

 

[sr edler]

You have to consider that Sundin is from Sweden.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[MadArcand]

What kind of a post is this? Sundin never captained a "superpowered team" that was "Cup favorites multiple times".

Not even close. Toronto's "infinite resources" at best landed them an over the hill Mogilny. Now I like Mogilny and he was good in Toronto, but come on. You don't have to pounce on Sundin to make your own boy Francis look better. If Sundin is Gartner then Francis is Ron Nieuwendyk.

1998-99 to the 2004 lockout, Toronto was a .598 team that averaged 43 wins and 98 points per season, was almost always 2nd in their division and in all but one season top-4 in the conference, and almost always made 2nd round of playoffs. That's a consistently very strong team. And while the management was indeed insistent on being NYR 2.0, trading for over-the-hill veterans, it doesn't change anything on them having infinite resources (just like NYR). And yes, Sundin is a Gartner of centers - consistently and for a long time good but never anywhere near great.

 

[sr edler]

1998-99 to the 2004 lockout, Toronto was a .598 team that averaged 43 wins and 98 points per season, was almost always 2nd in their division and in all but one season top-4 in the conference, and almost always made 2nd round of playoffs. That's a consistently very strong team.

Yes, it was a good team, very much because Sundin was a consistently very strong player. But Toronto wasn't one of the best teams in the league and wasn't a threat for the Presidents' Trophy. I mean, Sergei Berezin and Jonas Höglund at times were Sundin's first line wingers. That's not.... good. I mean even Bure in Florida had a better linemate than those guys in Viktor Kozlov.

 

[unknown33]

And yes, Sundin is a Gartner of centers

Sundin's international career has to count for something too - makes this comparison a joke.
Nevermind Mats earned post season allstar honors at Center twice, Sundin's VsX is 82 and Gartner is like 68, Sundin Top 20 finishes 17 times, Gartner 4 times etc.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Thread Closed

Vote 9 is over, so this thread is closed.

If you would like to discuss these players further please make a new thread.

If you would like to discuss the results of Vote 9, please do so in the Results thread.

Thanks,
HT