Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Centers)

[Hardyvan123]

do i even want to ask what you're basing that on?

if i'm following this thread correctly, the three 1950s years delvecchio wans't playing with howe, he made the all-star team.

did chris kunitz sniff the all-star team when he wasn't playing with crosby? hell, kunitz played two full seasons on the penguins before last season, one of which saw his center malkin win the art ross by a large margin, and didn't sniff an all-star team.

EDIT: to clarify, i meant the mid-season all-star team. but in those years, delvecchio also made one post-season second all-star team, finished 7th in goals once; 2nd and 6th in assists; 4th, 9th, and 8th in points. and we're talking about chris kunitz?

To be clear I'm not comparing Alex to Kris but rather the fortune each player had, compared to say Francis when he played in Hartford.

Instead a lot of focus on Francis is Kunitz like and seems to underscore actually what an accomplished player Ron was before and after his years with Jagr.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Love those non-answers.

70s gave you a list of 80 players who are according to him clearly superior to Marleau - so for Marleau being considered in a Top 80 project he must replace at least one.

Yet you aren't able/willing to give us a specify name, but beat around the bush.

My answer was quite clear but I'm short on time.

No doubt when I take the time to do a detailed look it will be dismissed like Marleau so easily is right?

The fact of the matter is that any winger scoring 3rd over such a large period of time 8 years going on 9 has to be considered on any top 80 wingers list IMO.

Sadly the perception of Marleau made upon people 5-10-15 years ago will limit the ability to rate and treat him fairly IMO.

Is he a lock for my top 80? Nope?

But he also comes with less question marks than say Krutov.

 

[MadArcand]

How is Malkin a given? He's the best player of the lot.

Interesting way to spell 'worst by a mile'.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Vote 9 has featured the continuation of the "Linemates Argument", specifically the advantages Francis had playing with Jagr and Delvecchio had playing with Howe. Games/seasons, performance when playing together are tallied, adjusted, analyzed. The merits of such an argument are left up to the individual reader or participant to decide.

Conversely looking at the quality of the opposition is ignored and by some is viewed as irrelevant. Example playing with Howe, Alex Delvecchio faced a HHOF quality defenceman virtually every game during the O6 era, while facing a HHOF quality goalie or opposing center slightly less. Red Wings played the Canadiens 14 times a season during Delvecchio's time in the O6 era so he would have faced Doug Harvey, Tom Johnson, Jacques Plante, Jean Beliveau, Henri Richard upwards of 14 times a season, allowing for injuries, before the playoffs are considered.

Conversely during Ron Francis' tenure with the Penguins playing with Jaromir Jagr did they face Ray Bourque, Chris Chelios, Nicklas Lidstrom a combined 14 times a season? Martin Brodeur, Dominik Hasek, Patrick Roy? Peter Forsberg, Eric Lindros, Joe Sakic?

Seriously is this even a real argument or should we trot out all of the players everyone faced?

But then again it's the history section and your argument could be a bizarre view on the sticky I guess.

How about actually watching some live game tapes and the compete level of 06 hockey instead of the HHOF and nostaglia angle?

The game play wasn't that slow, in terms of the amount of time and space, all because of 2 minute shifts either, you are right the context of competition is being ignored by some or downplayed but you have the wrong time frame.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Interesting way to spell 'worst by a mile'.

At least you are consistent with both current Pens elite players.

One really has to wonder how many elite seasons they both will need to get the appropiate respect they deserve?

 

[BM67]

The Pittsburgh Press published faceoff stats for the Penguins games in the 92 playoffs.

Here are the results for the series against the Rangers.

Ron Francis 103/179 (29.83/GP at 57.5%) of 394 in 6 games.

Offensive: 22/52 (42.3%)
Defensive:46/73 (63.0%)
Neutral: 35/54 (64.8%)

 

[Hardyvan123]

Huh?

Objectively their results are practically identical.

Basically the Hart (and being the definitive best player in hockey even if only for 1 year and I would argue perhaps 2), slightly better defense and more consistent excellent playoff hockey is the difference between the 2 guys for me.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Seriously

Seriously is this even a real argument or should we trot out all of the players everyone faced?

But then again it's the history section and your argument could be a bizarre view on the sticky I guess.

How about actually watching some live game tapes and the compete level of 06 hockey instead of the HHOF and nostaglia angle?

The game play wasn't that slow, in terms of the amount of time and space, all because of 2 minute shifts either, you are right the context of competition is being ignored by some or downplayed but you have the wrong time frame.

Seriously???

It is the cornerstone of your position since you first appeared here. You are the one downplaying earlier players because their opponents did not include Euros or sufficient Americans. Yet others cannot use the same argument if the exclusions change and the era comparison is not favourable.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Provenance

The Pittsburgh Press published faceoff stats for the Penguins games in the 92 playoffs.

Here are the results for the series against the Rangers.

Ron Francis 103/179 (29.83/GP at 57.5%) of 394 in 6 games.

Offensive: 22/52 (42.3%)
Defensive:46/73 (63.0%)
Neutral: 35/54 (64.8%)

Provenance of the stats would be very interesting. Was the Pittsburgh Press sourcing the data from the NHL or directly from the team?

 

[seventieslord]

That's true if you look at it in terms of seasons, but Lindros was constantly missing large chunks of those seasons (and creating a huge distraction out of it to boot). Lindros' top seasons only amount to 558 games compared to Malkin's 492, not a huge gap anymore. When you figure in the playoff difference, I think the on-paper record tilts very slightly in Malkin's favor without bringing "other issues" into the equation.



I gave that a lot of thought, but I just don't think Gilmour's peak was THAT high. Or to be more precise, his absolute peak wasn't sustained long enough for me to think of it as more than an aberration. If he had kept up his 1993 level for another couple of years it would be a different story, but I see him as a guy who had one great year that sticks out from an otherwise consistently-very-good career. And then he falls short of the other long-career guys in terms of having only a couple of noteworthy 30+ seasons, so he's kind of stuck being the lowest guy in both categories, even though his total career value might have him in the middle of the pack. I'm having a hard

For me it has more to do with Francis basically putting a franchise on his shoulders and carrying them for most of two decades, which is a sort of tiebreaker between the two of them.

Carrying them to what, exactly?

 

[seventieslord]

Not in the springtime.

Has Malkin exceeded expectations in more than one playoff?

 

[seventieslord]

Your term of garbage stat is clearly misguided, as guys just don't hang around scoring goals, if it was simply a GP stat it would be one thing but even then playing in the NHL for a very long time is a major accomplishment, scoring at the rate Patrick did for as long as he did isn't sexy like AO or heck even Reggie "the Rifle" Leach, but I say respectfully, at some point your refusal to consider him in that top 80 list is quite telling IMO.

Clearly a lot of the guys listed were major stars, but also many of those players got to play in much different times and conditions that Marleau did.

Sorry but being the 5th highest goal scorer in the NHL, and 3rd among Canadians, over a 8 year stretch isn't a garbage stat, the inference that it is is beyond logic.

It can be useful... if used in context (I.e. do the exact same thing for other players in the comparison and keep ppg in mind)

In all seriousness, I really can't wait to see who you leave out to make room for him. I mean, the pre 1970 ones are a given, but I'm sure interested in the modern ones

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Has Malkin exceeded expectations in more than one playoff?

How many centers in this round have?

 

[seventieslord]

This round has been interesting because marginal one dimensional offensive centers are being praised beyond reason with dubious support arguments.

Very basic hockey, taught to novice players and beyond is that offensive and defensive play are similar to breathing, exhaling goes with inhaling. You cannot separate the two unless the player is like an obstinate two year old holding their breath to get their way.

Specifically the mechanics and energy skating offensively is the same as skating defensively. The hockey talent to get into position to play effective offense is the same as required to get into position to play effective defense. The only difference is the willingness of players to do both equally.

In this round a very artificial distinction surfaced - offensive centers, specifically Joe Thornton and Adam Oates with some spillover to others, Peter Stastny, Dale Hawerchuk with Gilbert Perreault being unfairly thrown in while Alex Maltsev was spared. The supporting arguments were real headscratchers - late career two-way play, insufficient video evidence, evidence and inference.

Fact of the matter is that once a center is defined as offensive the only consideration left is the degree of laziness. Or when did the player realize that to stay in his comfort zone in the NHL he had to play defense. Prime example Steve Yzerman. Rumour of a trade to Ottawa for Yashin saw his defense improve tremendously. Adam Oates and Peter Stastny. likewise, actual trades. Managed a few extra years of NHL salaries by working defensively as well.

Joe Thornton - Hart Trophy the same year as traded, little defensive spike then back to normal. Recent improvement since career and contract is winding down so concessions to defense get made. Sufficient to watch one video. Unless totally indifferent defensively impossible to be so out of position defensively or so slow thru the neutral zone. Believe otherwise or prefer offense only? Fine say so but save the keystrokes of acrimony as they reveal the opposite of what is wished.

I assume Gilmour, Delvecchio and Francis top-3 for you, then?

 

[seventieslord]

Malkin & Hawerchuk should be a given.

I would have to agree.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Malkin & Hawerchuk should be a given.

I would have to agree.

Leaving Hawerchuk off is easy, and I guess I don't feel too badly leaving Perreault off. I am not so comfortable leaving Malkin off, considering his 3 year. But then, I'm not completely comfortable leaving any of the rest of the 9 off.

 

[quoipourquoi]

How many centers in this round have?

Gilmour seems to be the obvious one. Ron Francis, maybe? 1992, 1993, 1995? Outscored Jagr in those years by a decent margin. Had a big series against New York without Lemieux.

I get what seventieslord was getting at with Malkin though. One extremely dominant playoff and then a series of them with some question marks.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Gilmour seems to be the obvious one. Ron Francis, maybe? 1992, 1993, 1995? Outscored Jagr in those years by a decent margin. Had a big series against New York without Lemieux.

I get what seventieslord was getting at with Malkin though. One extremely dominant playoff and then a series of them with some question marks.

Yes, Gilmour is basically the only obvious answer there. For all the talk of his short regular season prime, his "playoff prime" included many more postseasons. As for Francis, Jagr's first top 10 finish was in 1994, so I don't think outscoring Jagr in 1992 or 1993 really says much. Anyway, Francis and Delvecchio played in the playoffs so many times and were generally good in the playoffs, so I'm sure there are multiple years you can point to where they exceeded expectation.

I get what 70s was saying too, but I still think Malkin would have to be considered better than the average player this round in the playoffs.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Yes, Gilmour is basically the only obvious answer there. For all the talk of his short regular season prime, his "playoff prime" included many more postseasons. As for Francis, Jagr's first top 10 finish was in 1994, so I don't think outscoring Jagr in 1992 or 1993 really says much. Anyway, Francis and Delvecchio played in the playoffs so many times and were generally good in the playoffs, so I'm sure there are multiple years you can point to where they exceeded expectation.

I get what 70s was saying too, but I still think Malkin would have to be considered better than the average player this round in the playoffs.

I brought up out-scoring Jagr to show that Francis' numbers weren't as obviously Jagr-influenced like his 1995-1998 regular seasons. 27 in 21, 17 in 12, and 19 in 12 as the most effective player on his line are some good playoff runs in a four-year span. I'd say that they were made possible by the attention Lemieux drew, but he produced more with Lemieux out of the lineup.

 

[Canadiens1958]

No

I assume Gilmour, Delvecchio and Francis top-3 for you, then?

No. Top 5 if you must know.

Despite the high level of repetition in the Gilmour / Francis discussion certain elements were not covered. Also was not impressed with certain views.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I brought up out-scoring Jagr to show that Francis' numbers weren't as obviously Jagr-influenced like his 1995-1998 regular seasons. 27 in 21, 17 in 12, and 19 in 12 as the most effective player on his line are some good playoff runs in a four-year span. I'd say that they were made possible by the attention Lemieux drew, but he produced more with Lemieux out of the lineup.

True, those are quite impressive.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Rephrase

Has Malkin exceeded expectations in more than one playoff?

Rephrase your question to "How many or which centers did the expected job in the greatest number of playoff series?"

Answer will change rankings.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Carrying them to what, exactly?

For starters, to the Finals in 2002. Including a clutch OT goal that stunned one of the most dominant teams ever assembled.

I mean, is Francis' ability to lead and carry a team really in question?

 

[quoipourquoi]

For starters, to the Finals in 2002. Including a clutch OT goal that stunned one of the most dominant teams ever assembled.

I mean, is Francis' ability to lead and carry a team really in question?

Yeah, that was more Irbe and Weekes than a carry-job from Francis. Bates Battaglia was actually the leading scorer on the team going into the Finals...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For starters, to the Finals in 2002. Including a clutch OT goal that stunned one of the most dominant teams ever assembled.

I mean, is Francis' ability to lead and carry a team really in question?

I never thought of Francis as a guy who could really carry a team (are you surprised?), but yes, he was the best overall player on the 2002 Carolina Cup finalist. I thought Arturs Irbe was the best player in the playoffs for them overall, though Francis was quite good himself.

At the time, I saw it as another in a long line flawed Eastern Conference teams carried to the finals by their goaltenders only to be predictably obliterated in the finals by Colorado, Detroit, or Dallas. Similar to Florida in 1996, Washington in 1998, Buffalo in 1999.

Edit: Just checked: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/CAR/2002.html

Irbe with the .938 save percentage. Good to see my memory isn't totally faulty; I remembered some people thought he should win the Smythe even if Carolina lost the finals.

Francis did lead the team with 16 points, but Bates Battaglia was right behind with 14 points, and Jeff O'Neil had 13 points (and a team leading 8 goals). Brind'amour with 12 points. You obviously paid more attention to that team after they beat NJ in the first round than I did; did you really think Francis was the guy who carried them; not Irbe? Obviously, Francis played very well to lead a finalist in points, but carried them?