Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Centers)

[tarheelhockey]

Yeah, that was more Irbe and Weekes than a carry-job from Francis. Bates Battaglia was actually the leading scorer on the team going into the Finals...

And Francis was the leading scorer in both the regular season AND the playoffs.

Yes the goaltending was good that playoff run, as in virtually any noteworthy playoff run by any team. Francis was still the heart and soul of not only that 2002 team, but the entire organization from the mid 1980s until the early 2000s.

Imagine Francis' reputation if he had an identical role in Toronto or Detroit.


Edit: and seriously... Bates Battaglia.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

For starters, to the Finals in 2002. Including a clutch OT goal that stunned one of the most dominant teams ever assembled.

I mean, is Francis' ability to lead and carry a team really in question?

ability to be a leader and a major contributor to a playoff run? undoubtedly. he was excellent in that role. (just like delvecchio...)

ability to lead and carry a team? i think what 70slord was alluding to is that outside of one playoff run in '02, francis has zero series wins as franchise player in hfd/car. unless you count '86, in which he was hardly a key cog.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

And Francis was the leading scorer in both the regular season AND the playoffs.

Yes the goaltending was good that playoff run, as in virtually any noteworthy playoff run by any team. Francis was still the heart and soul of not only that 2002 team, but the entire organization from the mid 1980s until the early 2000s.

Imagine Francis' reputation if he had an identical role in Toronto or Detroit.


Edit: and seriously... Bates Battaglia.

Well, Mats Sundin was kind of the Francis of Toronto in a way (no, I'm not saying I wouldn't rank Francis higher than Sundin; I definitely would).

Side note, is seventieslord the only Toronto or Detroit fan we have in this project?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Edit: and seriously... Bates Battaglia.

Yeah. Him. So maybe that should put Francis' 2002 playoff in perspective if you want to talk about him carrying anyone in 2002. I say this, and I'm totally the person who just listed three playoffs from Francis that rocked.

 

[tarheelhockey]

ability to lead and carry a team? i think what 70slord was alluding to is that outside of one playoff run in '02, francis has zero series wins as franchise player in hfd/car. unless you count '86, in which he was hardly a key cog.

Hopefully we all know enough about the Hartford Whalers to understand that holding Ron Francis (of all people who set foot in that organization) accountable for their lack of playoff series wins would be completely absurd.

Yeah. Him. So maybe that should put Francis' 2002 playoff in perspective if you want to talk about him carrying anyone in 2002. I say this, and I'm totally the person who just listed three playoffs from Francis that rocked.

Maybe this doesn't spring readily to mind for the general hockey population, but Battaglia was the third cog on the Hurricanes' BBC line during that playoff. Brind'Amour, Battaglia, Cole. Guess which of them disappeared from relevance as soon as he was off that line?

Francis led the first line of Jeff O'Neill and Sami Kapanen. Yes -- a team with top line wingers Jeff O'Neill and Sami Kapanen had a lead in the Stanley Cup Finals. Francis was the straw that stirred that drink.

In the Finals:
Total team goals - 7
BBC line - 0 points
Ron Francis - 1-2-3

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Hopefully we all know enough about the Hartford Whalers to understand that holding Ron Francis (of all people who set foot in that organization) accountable for their lack of playoff series wins would be completely absurd.

I think asking where Francis ever "carried" a team is a legitimate question.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think asking where Francis ever "carried" a team is a legitimate question.

Every year in Hartford? The guy was 10-20 points better than his nearest teammate every year for almost a decade.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Every year in Hartford? The guy was 10-20 points better than his nearest teammate every year for almost a decade.

By this rationale, didn't Shane Doan basically carry Phoenix for almost a decade?

(Note I think Francis was worlds better than Shane Doan)

Edit: Okay, just checked, Doan only led the Coyotes in scoring 6 years in a row, not the best comparison, but hopefully you get the point.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Maybe this doesn't spring readily to mind for the general hockey population, but Battaglia was the third cog on the Hurricanes' BBC line during that playoff. Brind'Amour, Battaglia, Cole. Guess which of them disappeared from relevance as soon as he was off that line?

Francis led the first line of Jeff O'Neill and Sami Kapanen. Yes -- a team with top line wingers Jeff O'Neill and Sami Kapanen had a lead in the Stanley Cup Finals. Francis was the straw that stirred that drink.

In the Finals:
Total team goals - 7
BBC line - 0 points
Ron Francis - 1-2-3

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying Bates Battaglia is a great player or had a great run. I stated that through the three rounds the Hurricanes actually won, Ron Francis was not even their leading scorer. Bates Battaglia was. That's how much Ron Francis did not carry the Carolina Hurricanes in the 2002 playoffs.

Their goalies were stopping at a combined .944 through three rounds. 6 GA in a six-game Conference Final. You think we don't know why Carolina advanced? Goaltending. Not the 47th ranked player in points-per-game in that playoff.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Best Ever

Every year in Hartford? The guy was 10-20 points better than his nearest teammate every year for almost a decade.

Okay that may qualify Ron Francis to be the best Hartford Whaler ever and since Doug Gilmour does not have such a string then he would not be be the best ever on any team he played for. Joe Thornton may qualify as the best Shark ever by approaching this metric but ......

 

[quoipourquoi]

Okay that may qualify Ron Francis to be the best Hartford Whaler ever and since Doug Gilmour does not have such a string then he would not be be the best ever on any team he played for. Joe Thornton may qualify as the best Shark ever by approaching this metric but ......

And it still doesn't answer the key question: Where? Where did Ron Francis actually carry them? He isn't even their leading playoff scorer; Eric Staal passed him with 43 points in 43 games (Francis: 39 points in 62 games).

You can't say that "putting a franchise on his shoulders and carrying them for most of two decades" serves as "sort of tiebreaker" without opening yourself to this type of analysis. Where did he carry them? To Arturs Irbe's house?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Finally voted. I must say that figuring out what to do about Malkin was the toughest part. Ultimately, I decided to give him partial credit for 2013-14 since the season is a bit more than half over by now. I'm sure many of you will disagree with that (there was serious pushback against giving Chara ANY credit for the season he was in the middle of when we did the defenseman project 2 years ago).

Anyway, doing so pushed Malkin (barely) into my top 8. I'm assuming he'll probably still be available next round; I'm going to try to come up with a way to properly credit him for the current season (currently 10th in points and 3rd in PPG) without giving him too much credit.

 

[tarheelhockey]

In case it wasn't clear, I'm not saying Bates Battaglia is a great player or had a great run. I stated that through the three rounds the Hurricanes actually won, Ron Francis was not even their leading scorer. Bates Battaglia was. That's how much Ron Francis did not carry the Carolina Hurricanes in the 2002 playoffs.

Their goalies were stopping at a combined .944 through three rounds. 6 GA in a six-game Conference Final. You think we don't know why Carolina advanced? Goaltending. Not the 47th ranked player in points-per-game in that playoff.

Do you think that *I* don't know why they advanced?

Again, I realize that the goaltending was great that year. But for chrissakes, is captaining and leading a Finalist in scoring really not enough to earn Francis some recognition here? Leading his team in scoring for an entire decade? Being universally recognized as THE face of his franchise and THE go-to-guy in pretty much every game they played? "Leading them to what?" may be a fair question for a Thornton or Sundin, but Francis is a bit different story don't you think?

 

[seventieslord]

No. Top 5 if you must know.

Despite the high level of repetition in the Gilmour / Francis discussion certain elements were not covered. Also was not impressed with certain views.

It's just that your post appeared to put a huge emphasis on defense and with that being the case, there's a pretty huge gap from 3rd-best defensively in this round (whoever you feel that is) and 4th-best (whoever you feel that is). right?

Rephrase your question to "How many or which centers did the expected job in the greatest number of playoff series?"

Answer will change rankings.

sounds like you rephrased it already. Please go ahead and answer it because I'm interested in your view.

For starters, to the Finals in 2002. Including a clutch OT goal that stunned one of the most dominant teams ever assembled.

I mean, is Francis' ability to lead and carry a team really in question?

he "led" and "carried" the Whalers and canes past round 1 of the playoffs two times, so yes, I think asking how impressive his carrying of a historically weak franchise is, is legitimate.

 

[seventieslord]

Well, Mats Sundin was kind of the Francis of Toronto in a way (no, I'm not saying I wouldn't rank Francis higher than Sundin; I definitely would).

Side note, is seventieslord the only Toronto or Detroit fan we have in this project?

Although, Sundin did lead Toronto out of round one five times... in fewer chances too...

 

[seventieslord]

Every year in Hartford? The guy was 10-20 points better than his nearest teammate every year for almost a decade.

Except 84, 86, and 89.

 

[seventieslord]

And it still doesn't answer the key question: Where? Where did Ron Francis actually carry them? He isn't even their leading playoff scorer; Eric Staal passed him with 43 points in 43 games (Francis: 39 points in 62 games).

ouch.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You can't say that "putting a franchise on his shoulders and carrying them for most of two decades" serves as "sort of tiebreaker" without opening yourself to this type of analysis. Where did he carry them? To Arturs Irbe's house?

You have to remember the other side of the tiebreaker.

What did Delvecchio ever lead the Wings to?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

You have to remember the other side of the tiebreaker.

What did Delvecchio ever lead the Wings to?

And you're forgetting the other side of this argument - if the NHL contracted to 6 teams in the middle of Francis' prime, would he be the best player on an NHL team at any point in his career?

 

[MXD]

Side note, is seventieslord the only Toronto or Detroit fan we have in this project?

According to top-secret information, 70ies isn't the only Leafs fan in this project.

 

[quoipourquoi]

But for chrissakes, is captaining and leading a Finalist in scoring really not enough to earn Francis some recognition here?

For 2002? No.

Okay, just checked, Doan only led the Coyotes in scoring 6 years in a row, not the best comparison, but hopefully you get the point.

Didn't Francis only do it 7 times, non-consecutively? 1983, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1990, 2000, 2002? And didn't Shane Doan do it 7 times, all consecutive? 2004, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011?

Where are we off?

 

[MXD]

You have to remember the other side of the tiebreaker.

What did Delvecchio ever lead the Wings to?

I think you forgot this :

How can a player "lead" a team with Gordie Howe on it?

 

[tarheelhockey]

he "led" and "carried" the Whalers and canes past round 1 of the playoffs two times, so yes, I think asking how impressive his carrying of a historically weak franchise is, is legitimate.

What was he supposed to do, trade himself to a better team?

After being raked hard over the coals for "Jagr, Jagr, Jagr", Francis is now getting skewered for a lack of team success. You can't make this stuff up.

Except 84,

When, as a 20 year old, he finished 4 points off pace in 7 fewer games.

86,

When he finished 2 points short in 23 fewer games.

and 89.

When he finished 12 point short in 10 fewer games.

Basically he fell short 3 times due to GP.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I think you forgot this :

How can a player "lead" a team with Gordie Howe on it?

Jagr, Jagr, Jagr.

 

[tarheelhockey]

And you're forgetting the other side of this argument - if the NHL contracted to 6 teams in the middle of Francis' prime, would he be the best player on an NHL team at any point in his career?

That would depend entirely on the construction of the teams, wouldn't it? I'm pretty sure he would have been the best player on quite a few of the O6 teams.