Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Wingers)

[seventieslord]

To be fair, I am comparing Hull's prime outside of his 3 best seasons (peak) to Iginla's full prime. They are very comparable. Considering Hull was less of playmaker than Iginla was (a noted minus) we see that Hull was still about as good as Iginla was outside his amazing peak.

Feel free to completely disregard my research here.

It's a valid area to explore, but I would do it using points instead of goals, that's all. I'm sure with Iginla being a better playmaker they are pretty close in peak point production, close enough that linemates can explain the rest (I.e. that Iginla had none).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Even if you assume the worst case scenario for Hull and substract the 15% from Hull but nothing for every other player the margin is still ~43% (about as big as Gretzky's 92 goal season).

Thank you, this is a more productive response than accusing me of trying really hard to downplay Hull by bringing up Oates.

If you decide to drop Hull's totals by 15%, he wins his first goal scoring title by 5-6 goals over Kevin Stevens, his second by a huge margin as you say, and his third he is basically tied with Yzerman for the goal scoring title. So he still looks to have 3 goal scoring titles, 2 of them fairly close, and one of them still by a huge margin.

Look again at Denneny's Cup finals scoring. If 3 goals and 6 assists in 16 finals games is excellent, what would you call Nighbor's 20 points in 19 finals games or Darragh's 12 points in 12 finals games?

yeah... that does bring Denneny's playoff record down a bit. Maybe he is more on Hull/Mikhailov's level, and not at the level of a Kurri, Moore, or Blake.

 

[matnor]

Since Adam Oates has been a topic when discussing Brett Hull and his peak seasons, here are the numbers for the 5 players that had the most assists on Hull's goals for the three 70+ goal seasons (these data were not available when I made this thread).

Season | Player | EV assists | PP assists | Total assists | Percent primary
89/90 | Adam Oates | 14 | 9 | 23 | 70%
89/90 | Peter Zezel | 8 | 13 | 21 | 57%
89/90 | Sergio Momesso | 14 | 5 | 19 | 58%
89/90 | Jeff Brown | 3 | 7 | 10 | 80%
89/90 | Paul Cavallini | 5 |4 | 9 | 33%
||||
90/91 | Adam Oates | 22 | 20 | 42 | 64%
90/91 | Rod Brind'Amour | 12 | 2 | 14 | 50%
90/91 | Scott Stevens | 4 | 10 | 14 | 43%
90/91 | Jeff Brown | 5 | 8 | 13 | 31%
90/91 | Gino Cavallini | 9 | 3 | 12 | 42%
||||
91/92 | Adam Oates | 20 | 9 | 29 | 79%
91/92 | Craig Janney | 6 | 4 | 10 | 80%
91/92 | Brendan Shanahan | 4 | 6 | 10 | 40%
91/92 | Dave Christian | 5 | 2 | 7 | 43%
91/92 | Ron Sutter | 5 | 1 | 7 | 100%

Based on these numbers, Oates played an important role in Hull's success, especially in 90/91. On the other hand, these numbers are still not close to Gretzky's numbers with Kurri...

 

[MXD]

Based on these numbers, Oates played an important role in Hull's success, especially in 90/91. On the other hand, these numbers are still not close to Gretzky's numbers with Kurri...

Are these numbers... somewhere, by any chance?

I mean, I totally trust you, and anyways, it's really common sense to think that Gretzky had a lot of input on Kurri's scoring.

Two things though :

- Once Kurri didn't play regularily with Greztky, it's fair to assume he wasn't in his prime anymore. Besides, while Kurri did suffer a drop-off, his "generation" as a whole did experience at drop-off as well. That includes Michel Goulet, whose career path is somewhat similar and who is really a poor man's Kurri in pretty much every respect.

- Any player would've experienced this with a prime-Gretzky. Expecting Kurri to be different doesn't seem very realistic.

 

[unknown33]

Thank you, this is a more productive response than accusing me of trying really hard to downplay Hull by bringing up Oates.

If you decide to drop Hull's totals by 15%, he wins his first goal scoring title by 5-6 goals over Kevin Stevens, his second by a huge margin as you say, and his third he is basically tied with Yzerman for the goal scoring title. So he still looks to have 3 goal scoring titles, 2 of them fairly close, and one of them still by a huge margin.

Alright, but again this is the most punishing scenario for Hull as there isn't adjustment done for any other player.

 

[matnor]

Are these numbers... somewhere, by any chance?

I mean, I totally trust you, and anyways, it's really common sense to think that Gretzky had a lot of input on Kurri's scoring.

Two things though :

- Once Kurri didn't play regularily with Greztky, it's fair to assume he wasn't in his prime anymore. Besides, while Kurri did suffer a drop-off, his "generation" as a whole did experience at drop-off as well. That includes Michel Goulet, whose career path is somewhat similar and who is really a poor man's Kurri in pretty much every respect.

- Any player would've experienced this with a prime-Gretzky. Expecting Kurri to be different doesn't seem very realistic.

Here are the numbers from 80/81 to 87/88 without splitting between special teams. The numbers may be a couple of goals off as the data from before 87/88 is slightly less reliable.

Season | Player | Total assists
80/81 | Wayne Gretzky | 24
80/81 | Brett Callighen | 9
80/81 | Risto Siltanen | 7
80/81 | Matti Hagman | 3
80/81 | Pat Price | 2
80/81 | John Hughes | 2
||
81/82 | Wayne Gretzky | 22
81/82 | Glenn Anderson | 9
81/82 | Paul Coffey | 4
81/82 | Risto Siltanen | 4
81/82 | Stanley Weir | 3
81/82 | Brett Callighen | 3
||
82/83 | Wayne Gretzky | 40
82/83 | Paul Coffey | 11
82/83 | David Semenko | 4
82/83 | Jaroslav Pouzar | 3
82/83 | Mark Messier | 3
82/83 | Glenn Anderson | 3
||
83/84 | Wayne Gretzky | 41
83/84 | Paul Coffey | 15
83/84 | Jaroslav Pouzar | 11
83/84 | Kevin Lowe | 6
83/84 | Charles Huddy | 4
83/84 | Mark Messier | 4
||
84/85 | Wayne Gretzky | 56
84/85 | Paul Coffey | 21
84/85 | Mike Krushelnyski | 11
84/85 | Charles Huddy | 8
84/85 | Kevin Lowe | 6
||
85/86 | Wayne Gretzky | 56
85/86 | Paul Coffey | 16
85/86 | David Hunter | 10
85/86 | Mike Krushelnyski | 8
85/86 | Glenn Anderson | 7
||
86/87 | Wayne Gretzky | 43
86/87 | Esa Tikkanen | 13
86/87 | Paul Coffey | 11
86/87 | Craig Muni | 4
86/87 | James Smith | 4
86/87 | Mark Messier | 4
||
87/88 | Wayne Gretzky | 28
87/88 | Esa Tikkanen | 13
87/88 | Mark Messier | 12
87/88 | James Smith | 5
87/88 | Glenn Anderson | 5

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Alright, but again this is the most punishing scenario for Hull as there isn't adjustment done for any other player.

True, but I don't think that whoever Oates' injury replacement was would have been any worse than Iginla's regular centers. Of course, that's cherrypicking the guy with the worst linemates in the comparison.

By the way, I do think it's a potential knock against Moore than his prime coincided perfectly with the Habs super-team, though that one is a little harder to process because he was cut down with injuries afterwards. (Plus people who actually watched that dynasty seem to rank Moore really highly, but that's another story).

 

[Captain Bowie]

I am curious why there has been such little discussion about Mikhailov. I really don't know much about him. He's been around for 2 rounds now so it's not like he doesn't have a shot at the top 4. What are people's thoughts on him?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am curious why there has been such little discussion about Mikhailov. I really don't know much about him. He's been around for 2 rounds now so it's not like he doesn't have a shot at the top 4. What are people's thoughts on him?

Excellent question. Personally, I was hoping that the posters who posted extensively on Makarov and Kharlamov would do the same for Mikhailov. I don't know whether they lost interest in the project in general, or if the silence surrounding Mikhailov is a sign for how he is viewed in Europe....

Anyway, here's are two ATD profiles on Boris Mikhailov:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=16012181&postcount=6
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43294897&postcount=37

Seems to be the closest thing the USSR ever produced to a star power forward.

 

[seventieslord]

I had a good mikhailov bio in ATD 2010 as well.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Excellent question. Personally, I was hoping that the posters who posted extensively on Makarov and Kharlamov would do the same for Mikhailov. I don't know whether they lost interest in the project in general, or if the silence surrounding Mikhailov is a sign for how he is viewed in Europe....

Anyway, here's are two ATD profiles on Boris Mikhailov:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=16012181&postcount=6
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=43294897&postcount=37

Seems to be the closest thing the USSR ever produced to a star power forward.

Considering he's been up for vote 2 rounds now, some voters must have had him very high on their lists. Maybe they could share why.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Considering he's been up for vote 2 rounds now, some voters must have had him very high on their lists. Maybe they could share why.

For sure, since most mentions of him have been about another Russian player that they had higher (myself included).

 

[MXD]

Here are the numbers from 80/81 to 87/88 without splitting between special teams. The numbers may be a couple of goals off as the data from before 87/88 is slightly less reliable.

Season | Player | Total assists
80/81 | Wayne Gretzky | 24
80/81 | Brett Callighen | 9
80/81 | Risto Siltanen | 7
80/81 | Matti Hagman | 3
80/81 | Pat Price | 2
80/81 | John Hughes | 2
||
81/82 | Wayne Gretzky | 22
81/82 | Glenn Anderson | 9
81/82 | Paul Coffey | 4
81/82 | Risto Siltanen | 4
81/82 | Stanley Weir | 3
81/82 | Brett Callighen | 3
||
82/83 | Wayne Gretzky | 40
82/83 | Paul Coffey | 11
82/83 | David Semenko | 4
82/83 | Jaroslav Pouzar | 3
82/83 | Mark Messier | 3
82/83 | Glenn Anderson | 3
||
83/84 | Wayne Gretzky | 41
83/84 | Paul Coffey | 15
83/84 | Jaroslav Pouzar | 11
83/84 | Kevin Lowe | 6
83/84 | Charles Huddy | 4
83/84 | Mark Messier | 4
||
84/85 | Wayne Gretzky | 56
84/85 | Paul Coffey | 21
84/85 | Mike Krushelnyski | 11
84/85 | Charles Huddy | 8
84/85 | Kevin Lowe | 6
||
85/86 | Wayne Gretzky | 56
85/86 | Paul Coffey | 16
85/86 | David Hunter | 10
85/86 | Mike Krushelnyski | 8
85/86 | Glenn Anderson | 7
||
86/87 | Wayne Gretzky | 43
86/87 | Esa Tikkanen | 13
86/87 | Paul Coffey | 11
86/87 | Craig Muni | 4
86/87 | James Smith | 4
86/87 | Mark Messier | 4
||
87/88 | Wayne Gretzky | 28
87/88 | Esa Tikkanen | 13
87/88 | Mark Messier | 12
87/88 | James Smith | 5
87/88 | Glenn Anderson | 5

Thanks. Still... I don't know what to do of this, and I'm not sure there's actually something to do with this.

I mean -- he was Edmonton's best winger, not to mention a very good 2-way player, which made him a very good candidate to play with the best center of all-time, who also happened to not care that much about defense. Put any player on Gretzky's line and his assist repartition would look like this.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Thank you, this is a more productive response than accusing me of trying really hard to downplay Hull by bringing up Oates.

If you decide to drop Hull's totals by 15%, he wins his first goal scoring title by 5-6 goals over Kevin Stevens, his second by a huge margin as you say, and his third he is basically tied with Yzerman for the goal scoring title. So he still looks to have 3 goal scoring titles, 2 of them fairly close, and one of them still by a huge margin.

His first title is 10 goals over Yzerman in 1990 and he trails only Gretzky, Mario and the absolute outlier peak season of Messier (18 points higher than any other season), along with Yzerman in points.

In 91 he leads all players in goals by 35 and only trails gretzky in points followed by his linemate Oates.

In 92 Oates gets traded a lil more than halfway through the season and he still leads Stevens by 16 goals and it's interesting to note that Stevens is being aided more in goal scoring by a linemate than Hull is here.

Hull is also 4th in points behind Mario and Wayne and that Stevens guy who played all season with Mario if we are somehow holding playing with Oates against Hull here.

After 92 we see an influx of non Canadian guys on the leader boards in both goals and points which somewhat distorts how good Hull was still in the decade.

Hull is 5th among Canadians in goal scoring in 93.


Hull is the leading Canadian goal scorer in 94 and only 1 goal off the lead in the shortened 95 season.

czech your math did a great breakdown last thread about his goal scoring in the 90's and in his 9 year prime he blows all goal scorers out of the water like Iposted earlier this thread.

Over those 9 years he has 494 goals to Mario at 398 and Yzerman at 375.

even in points which are very important he is 5th to Gretzky, Mario (who wouldn't be this round or the previous 2 rounds over that time period though?)

Yzerman 930
Oates 875
Hull 850

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=goals

One can't help but notice the abundance of centers on this list here either something which is being underplayed as in the 90's there was an extremely deep and strong group of centers and the role of most wingers was primarily as goal scorers, there were very few play making 1st type of wingers in the time period.

hull has a very strong case for being first this round and defintley should be a lock for top 4 considering his scoring peak, prime and length of great hockey both in the regular season and playoffs.

 

[seventieslord]

not sure if this sheds any more light on Mikhailov or not:

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?p=21587167&highlight=mikhailov#post21587167

 

[Batis]

I was really looking forward to the Mikhailov/Firsov discussion. But even if I personally would rank Firsov slightly ahead of Mikhailov I agree with previous posters in this thread about that it is probably time for Mikhailov to be added this round. Mikhailovs peak may not be as high as Firsovs but if one values consistency and elite longevity highly then Mikhailov certainly has a strong case for being ranked ahead of Firsov. Here is a quote from my previous post about scoring finishes in the Soviet national team between 1969 and 1991.

Top-5 scoring finishes in the soviet national team: 1969-1991 (WHC, WO, Canada Cup, Summit Series)

Valeri Kharlamov 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4
Sergei Makarov 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4
Boris Mikhailov 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5
Vladimir Petrov 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 3, 4, 4, 5
Alexander Maltsev 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 3, 3, 3, 4
Vladimir Krutov 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 5

Mikhailov was alongside Kharlamov and Makarov the player who was most consistently among the top 5 point producers in the Soviet national team during the 70´s and 80´s. Tomorow Im going to take a closer look at the goalscoring finishes within the Soviet national team in the same time frame as I strongly suspect that Mikhailov does even better in that regard.

 

[ted2019]

To be fair, I am comparing Hull's prime outside of his 3 best seasons (peak) to Iginla's full prime. They are very comparable. Considering Hull was less of playmaker than Iginla was (a noted minus) we see that Hull was still about as good as Iginla was outside his amazing peak.

Feel free to completely disregard my research here.

I prefer a solid 2 way player over a one dimensional player like Hull any day of the week. Especially one that has Iginla's skill sets.

 

[Sentinel]

I place Mikhailov solidly below Firsov and even Yakushev. But he possessed enormous longevity and stability (10 years in the Top 10 in scoring in the Soviet league... but never #1). Oddly enough, his prime didn't seem to come until he was like ten years in the league (late 70s).

I disagree about him being the only Soviet star power forward. Yakushev and Krutov were up there too, both arguably having higher peak.

 

[MXD]

I prefer a solid 2 way player over a one dimensional player like Hull any day of the week. Especially one that has Iginla's skill sets.

While I agree with your basic premise, qualifying Iginla a 2-way player seems very generous. Let's just say that his style he wasn't totally indifferent towards the defensive side of the game and that he wasn't particularly efficient or inefficient at it.

He'd be below Kurri, Moore, Joliat, Blake, Bentley, St-Louis.

Better than Hull, Jackson. Probably Denneny (in all likelyhood )

On par with Mikhailov, at least, from my understanding. Not that far below St-Louis, actually.

 

[BraveCanadian]

And seriously, just how much better a goal scorer was Hull than Iginla? I think he was a little better, but he sure had better guys passing to him!

With all due respect to Iginla who is a strong goalscorer in his own right.. Hull was better and it isn't close.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I place Mikhailov solidly below Firsov and even Yakushev. But he possessed enormous longevity and stability (10 years in the Top 10 in scoring in the Soviet league... but never #1). Oddly enough, his prime didn't seem to come until he was like ten years in the league (late 70s).

I disagree about him being the only Soviet star power forward. Yakushev and Krutov were up there too, both arguably having higher peak.

I worded it a bit clumsily but Mikhailov's peak in the alter 70's comes at a time between brighter stars as it were.

the thing is that it is really hard to separate the dominant soviet system at the time and individual players that mostly played at the then weaker WHC and not as many best on best tournaments.

 

[Hardyvan123]

While I agree with your basic premise, qualifying Iginla a 2-way player seems very generous. Let's just say that his style he wasn't totally indifferent towards the defensive side of the game and that he wasn't particularly efficient or inefficient at it.

He'd be below Kurri, Moore, Joliat, Blake, Bentley, St-Louis.

Better than Hull, Jackson. Probably Denneny (in all likelyhood )

On par with Mikhailov, at least, from my understanding. Not that far below St-Louis, actually.

But really how much of any of these players defensive game actually had positive and influential impacts on the teams they played for?

the "defensive" or "2 way game" for all of these players is much less than their offense simply put.

 

[MXD]

A little word on Busher ?

Little has been said about Busher.

I'd consider him the last or next to last in the current group. Mainly on the basis of a mostly unidimensional game, somewhat underwhelming playoffs (arguably the worst resume in this group) and overall offense output not up to par with mostly everyone from this group, all the while being always used as a go-to offense player and not briging much of anything else to the table.

Is that harsh ?

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

There's a lot of uncertainty surrounding the non-NHL Euros in this project, but IMO Mikhailov is the surest bet to be able to maintain his level of play in "the NHL game." We know how these guys performed against NHL talent sporadically, but we never saw how they could hold up day-in-day-out over a full season + playoffs. There's a big difference between taking abuse for a short tournament or tour and doing it for a full season. Mikhailov was an absolute bull, could not be intimidated, and appears to be able to play a variety of styles/roles...I see him having the least difficulty weathering the NHL storm.

 

[MXD]

But really how much of any of these players defensive game actually had positive and influential impacts on the teams they played for?

the "defensive" or "2 way game" for all of these players is much less than their offense simply put.

Well, there's no way Joliat wins his Hart if he does squat other than scoring.

Bentley ? Well, playing ahead of a replacement goalie, while the reminder of the league play ahead of a HHOF'er, will tend to give that kind of results.

(Others may chime in here, gotta go)