Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Wingers)

[Hawkey Town 18]

IMPORTANT NOTE: Post 2 of every voting thread will contain instructions as to who to send your votes to. If you send your votes to the wrong person, we can't guarantee that they will be counted.

MOD: This is a strictly on-topic thread. Posts that don't focus on the wingers listed in Post 2 will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators. This will be strictly enforced in every Round 2 voting thread, regardless of who the OP is - TDMM

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2

• The top 8-12 ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of at least five (5) days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
• Final voting will occur for two (2) days, via PM. Everyone ranks their top 8 players.
• Top 4 players will be added to the list
• Final results will be posted and the process repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 wingers is obtained
• If there are major breaks in the Round 2 voting totals, we may add more or less than the targeted 4 players in certain rounds
• The number of players available for discussion at once will increase from 8 as we move down the list, based on natural breaks in the aggregate list put together in Round 1

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:

• Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
• Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
• Please treat other debaters with respect
• Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
• Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (23):
Andros , Art of Sedinery , BillyShoe1721 , Dennis Bonvie , Hawkey Town 18 , intylerwetrust , kmad , MadArcand , reckoning , Rob Scuderi , ted1971 , TheDevilMadeMe , the edler , tony d , Ursaguy , bigbuffalo313 , Canadiens1958 , Darth Yoda , Hardyvan123 , MXD , tarheelhockey , unknown33 , seventieslord , Johnny Engine

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

Click to read more...

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

Vote 5 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Thursday October 30th at 9 PM EST. You may PM votes to Hawkey Town 18 starting on Wednesday, Oct 29th.

We will be sending out confirmations when we receive ballots from the voters. Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume we never received it and should resubmit it and post in this thread saying they did so.

Vote 5 will be for places 17 through 20 (4 places) on the Top 60 list.

There are 11 eligible candidates for Vote 5 because of the natural breaks of Round 1 point totals. You will still only rank your Top 8 when voting.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Doug Bentley
Toe Blake
Cy Denneny
Brett Hull
Jarome Iginla
Busher Jackson
Aurele Joliat
Jari Kurri
Boris Mikhailov
Dickie Moore
Martin St. Louis

 

[tarheelhockey]

I'd like to take a closer look at Denneny vs. Hull at some point before we vote.

 

[MXD]

As far as I'm concerned, I came very close to asterisking Martin St Louis. Otherwise the new ones are mostly the ones I expected. Bentley and Blake are interesting comparables who shouldn't be that far one from another when all things are said and done.

 

[Hardyvan123]

wow still missing a Russian whose peak is as good as some guys in the last 2 selections.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

wow still missing a Russian whose peak is as good as some guys in the last 2 selections.

Still missing 3 Russians I had higher than Mikhailov on my original list.

 

[seventieslord]

With those three out of the way, Denneny is a super easy number one here, imo.

 

[unknown33]

Doug Bentley looks like he isn't Top 8 material this round. Any objections?

St. Louis vs. Iginla. Had them back to back on my round 1 list iirc.

 

[bobholly39]

I think st-louis should do very well here.

Amazing peak, but also crazy consistent prime.

Most impressive is how much of a late bloomer he was. Was St-Louis simply not as good early in his career as a player or was he somehow not given enough of a chance/offensive role because of his smaller size till he landed with Tampa after 1-2 yrs?

If i look at post 28 year old wingers im history of NHL he ranks 3rd all time in PPG behind only Howe and Jagr (v close to Jagr and Howe too).

 

[MXD]

I'm currently locked down due to this morning's events, so why not give some thoughts...

Doug Bentley looks like he isn't Top 8 material this round. Any objections?

St. Louis vs. Iginla. Had them back to back on my round 1 list iirc.

A more detailed examination vs. Blake would go a long way towards confirming or infirming this. But yeah, at first glance, he doesn't start in.

The only way I see StLouis/Iginla as being close is if you remove a digit.

I think st-louis should do very well here.

Amazing peak, but also crazy consistent prime.

Most impressive is how much of a late bloomer he was. Was St-Louis simply not as good early in his career as a player or was he somehow not given enough of a chance/offensive role because of his smaller size till he landed with Tampa after 1-2 yrs?

If i look at post 28 year old wingers im history of NHL he ranks 3rd all time in PPG behind only Howe and Jagr (v close to Jagr and Howe too).

st Louis is interesting because he's the first player whose route to NHL is impacted.

Well, no, that's wrong. Cook was as well, but that's not what I was alluding to.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Doug Bentley looks like he isn't Top 8 material this round. Any objections?

St. Louis vs. Iginla. Had them back to back on my round 1 list iirc.

I agree he has a MSL type of career but during the war years (and his career in the NHL totally took off when his younger brother max arrived) and simply 1 good playoffs and then pretty close to nothing (compared to others this round)

 

[unknown33]

The only way I see StLouis/Iginla as being close is if you remove a digit.

I gotta start with asking if in your opinion St Louis is way better than Iginla or vice versa.
Quite obiously neither option is comprehensible to me right now.

 

[Sentinel]

People picked St. Louis over Firsov, Bure, and Yakushev? Holy crap... Hell, I can argue Krutov and Bobrov over MSL.

 

[MXD]

People picked St. Louis over Firsov, Bure, and Yakushev? Holy crap... Hell, I can argue Krutov and Bobrov over MSL.

I can also argue the guy on my avatar over the guy on yours, you know.

 

[sr edler]

Iginla up before Bure? Uh please.

 

[King Forsberg]

People picked St. Louis over Firsov, Bure, and Yakushev? Holy crap... Hell, I can argue Krutov and Bobrov over MSL.

I'd love to hear an argument for Bobrov over MSL

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The lack of Anatoli Firsov as an option is bordering on an injustice. Looks like we might have to vote Boris Mikhailov onto the list before Firsov is an option, despite the fact that European observers of the era generally seem to have been more impressed with Firsov. I'll try to be fair to Mikhailov anyway.

I like the other 4 candidates though. Glad to see we get the chance to compare Iginla and St. Louis to Kurri and Hull. I think they may have passed them by now. Well, I definitely think Iginla has passed Hull (they are easy to compare).

Also glad to see the chance to compare Doug Bentley to Toe Blake, and Busher Jackson to Aurel Joliat.

 

[sr edler]

Oh, I remember that season when both Iginla and St. Louis were stuck behind Valeri Bure at RW in Calgary...

Crazy.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Iginla up before Bure? Uh please.

As he should be. Similar regular season peak/prime stats vs his peers, more longevity, much better all-round game, better Hart record.

Iginla has a legit shot at my top 4 this round.

 

[sr edler]

Please tell me about Iginla's all-round game and what's so special about it.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Please tell me about Iginla's all-round game.

He's average defensively, but that's still a step up from Bure or Hull, who didn't backcheck for large portions of their careers.

Noted power forward, board worker, and leader. If you want "proof" other than my opinion, THN's 2010-11 yearbook said, "You know you’re going to get your best from him and if he isn’t scoring, he’s still showing leadership and playing a robust physical game."

In 2009, ESPN surveyed NHL players and Iginla finished 1st in the player's poll for best leader in the NHL.

 

[sr edler]

Iginla's a nice guy so of course he's going to get a lot of votes from his peers as best leader but what does it really mean?

Bure stood up for Huselius when Trevor Kidd tried to bully him. Now that's a good leader.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 10 finishes in the NHL

When looking at top 10 finishes, please note that it is probably more difficult to repeat as a top 10 finisher in a larger league with more (European?) competition (which is what inspired the proliferation of Vs2, then VsX).

Top 5 finishes are bolded.

Note that many of Joliat's high finishes and all of Denneny's happened before 1926-27 - when much of North America's talent was playing in the PCHA and WCHL - leagues that rivaled the NHL. These finishes are listed separate from the rest and should NOT be compared at 1-to-1. A good estimate is to assume that the NHL only had half the talent and to double the actual finishes (so a 2nd place finish pre-consolidation is actually as good as a 4th place finish if all the talent was in the NHL). But this is just an estimate.

*Finish during 1944 and 1945 years that were heavily depleted by WW2. (1942, 1943, and 1946 were slightly depleted but much less so).

Top 10 Points

St Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 6
Bentley: 1, 2*, 2, 3, 3, 6, 7
Jackson: 1, 2, 5, 5, 7
Kurri: 2, 2, 4, 7, 8, 9
Blake: 1, 3, 3*, 6, 7, 9
Moore: 1, 1, 8, 8
Iginla: 1, 3, 6, 8
Hull: 2, 4, 5

Joliat: 2, 6, 8, 8, 10 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 2, 3, 5, 5, 9)
Denneny: (All pre-consolidation: 1, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4)


Top 10 Goals

Hull: 1, 1, 1, 2, 6, 8, 9, 10
Iginla: 1, 1, 3, 3
Kurri: 1, 2, 3, 5
Jackson: 2, 3, 3, 4, 6
Bentley: 1, 1*, 6
Blake: 2, 3, 3*, 8, 10
Moore: 1, 2, 3, 7
St. Louis: 4, 5

Joliat: 2, 3, 9 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 2, 5, 9)
Denneny: 8 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4, 4, 4)

Denneny managed to finish 8th in goals in the first year of a consolidated NHL, at the age of 35.

I was really surprised to see Kurri had so few years as a top goal scorer.

Top 10 Assists

St Louis: 1, 1, 2, 5, 7, 9, 9
Bentley: 1, 1, 4, 5, 5, 9, 9*
Moore: 1, 2, 5, 6
Blake: 3*, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9, 10
Jackson: 3, 9, 10
Kurri: 9, 9, 10
Iginla: 10
Hull: NONE

Joliat: 5, 5, 5, 7 (plus pre-consolidation finishes of 3, 6, 7, 10)
Denneny: (All pre-consolidation: 1, 1, 2, 3, 4, 8)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

7 Year weighted Vs-X scores 1927 to 2014

A formula for determining the quality of a player's point production in his best 7 regular seasons, compared to a typical #2 scorer in the league those years.

Details here and here

War years players - I am now listing the "war year fudge" first with the raw VsX in parenthesis, since I think the war year fudge is a much better estimate of offensive value.

Rank|Player|Score
1 | Gordie Howe | 126
2 | Jaromir Jagr | 114.6
3 | Bobby Hull | 107.1
4 | Guy Lafleur | 104.9
5 | Ted Lindsay | 104.8
6 | Maurice Richard | 102.5(105.7)
7 | Andy Bathgate | 101.2
8 | Alex Ovechkin | 97.5
9 | Charlie Conacher | 97.1
10 | Bill Cook# | 96.6
11 | Mike Bossy | 94.4
12 | Teemu Selanne | 92.9
13 | Martin St. Louis | 92.9
14 | Sweeney Schriner | 91.9
15 | Bernie Geoffrion | 90.2
16 | Busher Jackson | 90
17 | Mark Recchi | 88.6
18 | Brett Hull | 88.2
19 | Jari Kurri | 88.1
20 | Gordie Drillon | 88.1
21 | Doug Bentley | 87.2(96.2)
22 | Jarome Iginla | 87
23 | Dickie Moore | 86
24 | Pavel Bure | 86
25 | Frank Mahovlich | 85.5
26 | Paul Kariya | 85.4
27 | Roy Conacher | 85.4(88.8)
28 | Toe Blake | 85.3(92.6)
39 | John Bucyk | 85.3
30 | Bryan Hextall | 84.5
31 | Luc Robitaille | 84.4
32 | Syd Howe | 84.3(87.9)
33 | Ilya Kovalchuk | 84.3
34 | Markus Naslund | 83.6
35 | Paul Thompson | 83.2
36 | #Aurel Joliat# | 83.1
37 | Marian Hossa | 82.6
38 | Daniel Alfredsson | 82.6
39 | Theoren Fleury | 82.3

#NOTE that Joliat's score does NOT include his pre-1927 seasons#

According to seventieslord's method of using Vs1 for pre-consolidation players, Cy Denneny would get a scorer of 91.8 and Aurele Joliat would get a scorer of 84.9

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Top 5 in Hart voting 1923-24 to 2013-14

For a several years in 1930s, we only have top 3 or 4. This affects Busher Jackson, primarily, who may have 4th and 5th place finishes we don't know about (or maybe not).

#Note that the Hart only existed for the last 3 of Denneny's 8 top 5 finishes in (pre-consolidation) scoring#

*One of Joliat's 5th place finishes was pre-consolidation
**Bentley's 3rd place finish was during the 1943-44 War Year. (His 2nd place finish was during 1942-43, which was also somewhat weakened).

Player|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|Total
Gordie Howe | 6 | 1 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 16
Bobby Hull | 2 | 2 | 4| 0 | 1 | 9
Jaromir Jagr | 1 | 4 | 1 | 1 |0 | 7
Guy Lafleur | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6
Maurice Richard | 1 | 2 | 3 |0 | 0 | 6
Alexander Ovechkin | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4
Andy Bathgate | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 4
Brett Hull | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 3
Aurele Joliat* | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2*| 3*
Jarome Iginla | 0 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 3
Doug Bentley | 0 | 1 | 1** | 1 | 0 | 3**
Markus Naslund | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3
Syd Howe | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3
Teemu Selanne | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 3
Martin St. Louis | 1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 2
Bill Cook# | 0 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 2
----|
Toe Blake |1|0|0|0|0|1
Dickie Moore |0|0|0|0|1|1
Jari Kurri |0|0|0|0|0|0
#Cy Denneny# |0|0|0|0|0|0
Busher Jackson |0|0|0|0|0|0

#some prime years in the WCHL

_____________

Comments:

• As noted above, we only have the top 3 or 4 finishes for several years in the 1930s. Busher Jackson is the most likely to be affected, followed by Aurele Joliat.
• Brett Hull gets his record in virtue of his three year peak.
• Moore's record is strange - a two-time Art Ross winner who brought a lot other than scoring to the table, but really didn't make much of a dent in Hart voting
• I'm not surprised that Kurri received little Hart support over the course of his career