Line Combos: Roster/lines discussion

Anton Dubinchuk

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Pretty sure he would have been fine on that play too except Dalpe pokechecked the puck right passed him, at least I think it was Dalpe's stick. I guess you could blame either one for poor communication.

Yeah I noticed that too, I don't think I'd blame Dalpe as I think that's more of just bad puck luck than an actual poor defensive play. In the end if it hadn't bounced right to the other team's stick it would've been a solid stick check, and it definitely was the right decision to fight for the puck there, just a bad bounce.
 

Roboturner913

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I think I see the problem. You see this?...it's an apple. That thing over there is called an orange....

The sports aren't very different at all, in terms of how long it takes players to get ready for the big league and how the different skills translate into particular roles.
 

NorthStar4Canes

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The sports aren't very different at all, in terms of how long it takes players to get ready for the big league and how the different skills translate into particular roles.

Start with a 162-game regular season vs an NHL season, this one in particular, and go from there. The kids know they have to earn their place, and there isn't forever to do it in. You don't treat the big club like a development team because you're worried about damaging their fragile little psyches of being sent down. Signing Semin means they're interested in seeing the playoffs this year, and that means a shorter leash in terms of showcasing those things Muller wants to see. Theoretical upsides to players are fine, but if its not translating on the ice in real games bemoaning the decision is really just white noise.
 
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Joe McGrath

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The sports aren't very different at all, in terms of how long it takes players to get ready for the big league and how the different skills translate into particular roles.

There are multiple teenagers in the NHL every season. Teenagers make the majors two or three times a decade.
 

Roboturner913

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There are multiple teenagers in the NHL every season. Teenagers make the majors two or three times a decade.

Yes, but that's more of a financial matter than anything else.

Besides which, I'm not talking about the Chipper Joneses and Eric Staals of the world who everyone knows are studs at 19 or 20. I'm talking about the other guys, the ones who need a little help along the way. My conclusion is that the Hurricanes are terrible at helping those guys develop to their full potential. Given the sample size and a generally long string of failures, I don't think that is an outrageous thing to say.
 

Boom Boom Apathy

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Go back to that list of 1st and 2nd round picks from Carolina from the last 10 years and let me know who the "long string of failures" are?
 

Roboturner913

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Go back to that list of 1st and 2nd round picks from Carolina from the last 10 years and let me know who the "long string of failures" are?

Boychuk/Bowman/Dalpe are obviously the most recent source of frustration, notwithstanding your 1/2 draft pick argument and 10-year limitation. How many guys like that have come through over the years? No, not all of them are destined to be NHLers but what's the hit rate on these guys for the Canes. Zero for forever as opposed to the NHL rate, which hovers around the 20% mark I believe.

Ladd was traded for a useful asset (if you like Tuomo) but what if we had kept him instead of giving up like he was a lost cause at 22? Gave up on Vrbata in much the same manner. You could even argue that Sutter was mishandled in some small respect.

Don't get me wrong, I know and understand what you're saying and I'm probably oversimplifying the situation, but when you're a small-market team like the Canes are you simply have to do a better job of scouting and development or you're always going to have a roster full of holes and maybes. I can't imagine the org could possibly be happy with its track record in that aspect.

I do appreciate the perspective though. I think we're both right to some extent.
 
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Roboturner913

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Back to the center issue, I bet Malhotra could be had. He's fallen off a little bit but still good at faceoffs and could center a solid third line. And you most likely wouldn't have to give up much at all to get him.

Tlusty-Staal-Semin
Skinner-Staal-Jokinen
Bowman-Malhotra-Dwyer
LaRose-Brent-Nodl
 

tarheelhockey

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The only terrible play Sanguinetti's made since the first two games was either the second or third (I think second) goal in Philly where he made a terrible pinch that left Harrison alone for the umpteen on one. Other than that he hasn't been bad.

You're right that he hasn't been terribad lately. At this point it's more a question of what he brings to the lineup. Like, how would you complete the sentence, "Oh look, Sangs is on the ice, let's hope he __________."

In his defense, it's completely fair to argue that the real problem is that JR signed Corvo and made Sangs redundant for no apparent reason other than compulsive recycling.
 

geehaad

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In his defense, it's completely fair to argue that the real problem is that JR signed Corvo and made Sangs redundant for no apparent reason other than compulsive recycling.

And then you would be guilty of criticizing with the benefit of hindsight. In July, who would have predicted that Sanguinetti would be on the opening night roster?

So, no...not a fair criticism at all.
 

tarheelhockey

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And then you would be guilty of criticizing with the benefit of hindsight. In July, who would have predicted that Sanguinetti would be on the opening night roster?

So, no...not a fair criticism at all.

You think it's only in hindsight that the Corvo signing was completely baffling?

We didn't think Sangs would be on the roster because we assumed JR would sign someone to replace Allen, rather than another offensive RHD. Even now, it's not clear what Corvo's role on this team is supposed to be other than to tandem with Sanguinetti as a healthy scratch.
 

geehaad

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You think it's only in hindsight that the Corvo signing was completely baffling?

We didn't think Sangs would be on the roster because we assumed JR would sign someone to replace Allen, rather than another offensive RHD. Even now, it's not clear what Corvo's role on this team is supposed to be other than to tandem with Sanguinetti as a healthy scratch.

Ok, but none of that is what you said. You said that "the real problem is that JR signed Corvo and made Sangs redundant for no apparent reason other than compulsive recycling." Besides being an unreasonable statement, it ignores the possibility that JR (or Muller) wanted a RH PMD as insurance for McBain and/or Faulk. If that's the case, which neither of us knows whether is true or not, then he didn't make Sanguinetti redundant. At the time the action was taken, Sanguinetti was simply not seen as being capable of filling that role. To argue otherwise is revisionist history...at best.

Now, as for whether JR wanted Joe Corvo as insurance for a RH PMD...I think that's a given, but I'm not going to get into a debate about another man's intentions.
 

What the Faulk

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Justin Faulk is a +2.....wouldnt you think his play would indicate he has played better?

i think we all got over using +/- as a way to decide how good a player has been playing lol

Faulk's +2 ranks 3rd on the team in terms of defense and 7th overall. Allen's ranks 16th on his team and tied for 7th in terms of defense.

+/- is certainly useful when used correctly.

Plus I've actually watched a few Ducks' games lately. Allen really hasn't been that great. I find it hilarious people are still pining over him.
 

Blueline Bomber

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People are still pining over Seidenberg and he's never been what he's being projected as in these pinings. Don't see why Allen would be any different.
 

SeaBasstian

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Faulk's +2 ranks 3rd on the team in terms of defense and 7th overall. Allen's ranks 16th on his team and tied for 7th in terms of defense.

+/- is certainly useful when used correctly.

Plus I've actually watched a few Ducks' games lately. Allen really hasn't been that great. I find it hilarious people are still pining over him.

Allen was bad on the Panthers. he has been "not that great" for the Ducks.....he was GREAT for us. whose to say he wouldnt be again. id take him over corvo any day
 

Joe McGrath

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Allen was bad on the Panthers. he has been "not that great" for the Ducks.....he was GREAT for us. whose to say he wouldnt be again. id take him over corvo any day

Well he would cost the team 3.5 mil annually for the next 3 years as well.
 

What the Faulk

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And at 32 with knee problems, I'm not sure that's a risk I'm willing to take.

This team needs a player like Bryan Allen. They do not need Bryan Allen.
 

bleedgreen

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We need another Gleason to Allen type of guy. I don't think anyone would argue that. We are still very soft back there, and despite having a lot of puck movers we still don't move out of the zone well together with consistency.

Still some things are coming together, they are learning what they have in sangs and what's left with Corvo. If we are a playoff team, I'd suspect we're gonna lose more assets to get another dman.
 

tarheelhockey

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Ok, but none of that is what you said. You said that "the real problem is that JR signed Corvo and made Sangs redundant for no apparent reason other than compulsive recycling." Besides being an unreasonable statement, it ignores the possibility that JR (or Muller) wanted a RH PMD as insurance for McBain and/or Faulk. If that's the case, which neither of us knows whether is true or not, then he didn't make Sanguinetti redundant. At the time the action was taken, Sanguinetti was simply not seen as being capable of filling that role. To argue otherwise is revisionist history...at best.

Ok, take a step back from that partial quote and look at the full scope of the conversation.

- Someone said Sanguinetti should not be in the lineup, ever, period.

- A couple of people pointed out that Sangs hasn't really had a poor game since early on. That he's been quietly serviceable.

- I agreed, and added that his biggest issue right now is a lack of a clear purpose for being on the team.

Onto THAT I added that the biggest issue for Sanguinetti is that JR made him redundant by signing Corvo.

The whole idea behind acquiring Sanguinetti was that he might eventually add a right-handed puck moving option to the bottom pairing and PP. Now that he's in a position to become that player, he's spending half his time in the press box behind a virtually identical but much older and more expensive player. What is Sanguinetti supposed to do, other than wait for Corvo to fail or get injured?

Whether JR acquired him for insurance or not, I don't see how there's even a question that Corvo is making Sanguinetti redundant right now. Unless Sangs miraculously gets a lot better at defense, he and Corvo are going to have to share a role in an area where we are already overstocked.
 

Joe McGrath

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Sanguinetti could start to inspire confidence by not being on the ice for a goal against in the first 10 minutes of every game hes played.
 

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