Salary Cap: Roster-building Thread XXVIII : Lots of D prospects... but need moar D.

[The Old Master]

the first thing we need to do is move the guys we are going to lose for nothing. we have to get some thing for them. , even if its not ideal at least we will have something to work with.

 

[Terrapin]

Agreed 110%, and I've been saying this for weeks now. Everyone is urging for JR to go "all-in" once more at the deadline and make us into buyers. What for????

People really need to settle down, take a good look at our roster, and realize that it actually is ALREADY talented enough to make a legit run for a cup. If there's 1 more thing I'd like to add it's maybe an experienced, solid stay-at-home dman, but aside from that, I'm very happy with the way we're built as a whole.

As you've mentioned the biggest problem with this group right now isn't in terms of talent or personnel, it's in terms of HEART, which they haven't shown since late November.

You're right and wrong. Yes, the team has no heart. But, the roster is a big problem. You can't teach or instill 'heart' into guys. The only answer is to bring in guys with heart, and hope it has a trickle down effect.

Our 3rd line may be the blandest line in the league. You have 3 guys that have zero heart, passion, and physicality. Granted, Bennett should either be in the top 6, traded, or in Wilkes Barre. I commented in the game thread last night with about 4 minutes left, it was literally the first time I noticed Spaling all game. If it wasn't for Suter falling down like a drunkard every time he's near a puck, I wouldn't notice him either.

No use even bringing up Adams, but he literally provides nothing, and kills any momentum a promising 4th line combo of Lap-Downie has.

Comeau is a nice player, but isn't nearly as gritty as people claimed he'd be. Kunitz is terrible and bland. Replace some or all of those guys with blood and guts guys who lay it on the line every night, and Sid and Geno may have no choice but to get with the program.

Personalities are very contagious in team sports. Guys like Downie, Laps, Comeau, etc aren't going to go balls out when they're surrounded by puffs like Sutter and Spaling.

 

[DeadPuckEra]

If you think trading Sid away will stop the slide into mediocrity, then you're sadly mistaken.

What's poisoning this team is not Sid and/or Geno. It's allowing Sid (allegedly) to be the "behind the curtain" head coach. It's not having a clear plan to build a team the past 5 years (this year not included because there's a clear plan in place now).

I, along with most everyone else, think it's ******** to let Sid dictate player personnel decisions, but the solution is not to trade him. The solution is to tell him "No. You play with who the coach tells you to and how they tell you to".



You obviously haven't been paying attention and just throw out random parroted statements. I I refuse to take anything you say seriously anymore.

I'm crushed.

You're entitled to your opinion but to say I haven't been paying attention to what the Pirates have been doing for the last 25 years, regardless of their recent success, makes it seem like you aren't paying attention. Do some research on the money they bring in, and the money they put in to the team. Then make educated statements instead of getting all huffy. Hoss.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

the first thing we need to do is move the guys we are going to lose for nothing. we have to get some thing for them. , even if its not ideal at least we will have something to work with.

Agreed, but it's though to do when you consider yourself a contender. You trade a guy like Martin for futures and picks, how do the players react?

 

[MtlPenFan]

Most of us have been saying to get what you can now for pending UFA's and sink or swim with the kids. The "WIN NOW" attitude is what ****ed us and put us in this spot to start with.

Trade Kunitz, Scuderi, Martin - because they will NOT be the difference in winning a Stanley Cup. Trade Sutter because I don't see him being here beyond next year anyway.

Take a step back before taking two forward. They'll never do it, but it needs to be done. I don't want any more ****ing Shero type rental deals. If DP is going to get traded, it better be for a LONG TERM solution at one of our many weak spots.

 

[JTG]

As good as Crosby is, Dallas says no to this.



I tend to agree. But how do you fix this, that is the question?

I always thought Letang could be a real leader you could follow, but he is just injured way too much.

You take this team and you get rid of every single guy who is not dedicated to this. When this team was going to Cup finals, you'd watch them and there would be 2 guys laying down in front of shots on the PK. There would be guys who jump over the boards and run around like wild banshees. When this team lost guys like Max Talbot, Matt Cooke, Aaron Asham, Adam Hall, Mike Rupp, and even guys like TK...our heart and soul went with it. Those guys brought spark to the lineup, they brought leadership.

JR has got to find a way to bring in those bottom 6'ers this offseason. He has to find a way to bring in a 3rd line center who can play productive hockey consistently, but is an absolute bear to play against. Someone brought up Hanzal in Arizona...that's a damn fine target. I'm a proponent of bringing back Lapierre and Downie for the bottom 6, as those are the personalities we need. Anyone remember Lapierre in Montreal when we played them? He gave us fits. I'd bring in a bunch of players just like those two.

 

[MtlPenFan]

Agreed, but it's though to do when you consider yourself a contender. You trade a guy like Martin for futures and picks, how do the players react?

They'll react by playing in a way that shows they know they can't win.

You know, like they're doing now.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Most of us have been saying to get what you can now for pending UFA's and sink or swim with the kids. The "WIN NOW" attitude is what ****ed us and put us in this spot to start with.

Trade Kunitz, Scuderi, Martin - because they will NOT be the difference in winning a Stanley Cup. Trade Sutter because I don't see him being here beyond next year anyway.

Take a step back before taking two forward. They'll never do it, but it needs to be done. I don't want any more ****ing Shero type rental deals. If DP is going to get traded, it better be for a LONG TERM solution at one of our many weak spots.

I agree with you 100%, but then again how do you sell it to fans and guys like Sid and Geno? And if it was the case, then IMO bringing in a guy like JR with a win now attitude was a mistake as well. JR said it when he was hired, he ain't thinking future

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Agreed, but it's though to do when you consider yourself a contender. You trade a guy like Martin for futures and picks, how do the players react?

You can always move those pieces for another vet blueliner. Pollack is apparently now avaliable and brings a lot of the elements the Pens are missing. He also has another year left on his deal.

Just because you move a vet out doesn't mean you can't bring another one back in.

Coffey was moved for a first, and that pick was packaged to land the Philly crew, including the shutdown presence they needed in Kjell Samuelsson.

 

[Winger for Hire]

I'm crushed.

You're entitled to your opinion but to say I haven't been paying attention to what the Pirates have been doing for the last 25 years, regardless of their recent success, makes it seem like you aren't paying attention. Do some research on the money they bring in, and the money they put in to the team. Then make educated statements instead of getting all huffy. Hoss.

While I'm not going to go into detail here and bore the people who don't have any interest in this, if you would like to discuss this over in the Pirates OT thread, I'd be glad to tell you exactly why you're wrong about what I bolded (not the ump-teen McClatchy years). And I'm sure there's a couple others that would happily show you why you're off base as well.

 

[Shady Machine]

As good as Crosby is, Dallas says no to this.

Which is why I proposed it. The only Crosby or Malkin trade that makes sense for the Pens is one the other team says no to. That's precisely why trading them will never happen.

 

[Riptide]

It's time people be honest about some things. Take a closer look at the usual suspects that are called out, and how it really relates to right now.

The core players (Sid, Geno, Letang, Kunitz, etc)
Ownership

That's it. Those are the only constants from the last few years. So the only possible 'fix', is to either make a major shakeup to the core, and/or for Lemieux, Moorehouse, etc to give up the fantasy of a European-style NHL utopia. Dumping Adams, trading Kunitz, etc isn't going to do much.

While I agree that more than Kunitz, Sutter, Adams and Scuderi needs to go and that just moving them likely won't change a lot... you have to start with those guys.

If it doesn't work out, then at some point down the road, perhaps other solutions are looked at... but you always start with the little things before you start looking at trading star players.

 

[CrosbytoKessel]

Seth Rorabaugh @emptynetters · 36m 36 minutes ago
A few players are heading back to the dressing room after 20 minutes or so.
Tade??

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Seth Rorabaugh @emptynetters · 36m 36 minutes ago
A few players are heading back to the dressing room after 20 minutes or so.
Tade??

Pizza Party?

 

[Riptide]

I understand your logic here, and I do agree with it to some extent. But it's funny. You say Perron is exactly what we all hope Bennett can become. Well, one guy gets placed immediately on the big line and starts producing. The other guy has been here a few years but has not been given a real stretch of games with either of our superstars. Instead, we want him to basically caddy for Sutter.

The Bennett we see today is a LOT like the player Perron was when he was in St. Louis his first few seasons. The Blues gave up on Perron, I sure hope we don't do the same with Bennett.

St Louis didn't give up on Perron. Them selling low on Perron was a cap move. Yes he'd had a poor season prior to that (10g/25pts/48gms), but that was as much as a cap/salary move as them deciding to move on from Perron. As for Bennett... his inability to stay healthy has been a major stumbling block for him over the years. However I don't see him as being in the same position as Perron was in STL. He doesn't make 3.8m, and Pittsburgh doesn't have the same budget concerns STL has always had to deal with.

We simply cannot continue to try to fix EVERY problem by trading first rounders. We MUST develop our own. Every time a team trades away a first-round pick, it's a bit of an indigtment towards the amateur scouting staff. There is some degree of organizational failure here, imo.

That's why I don't want to trade any of the D-men. And once they're all established, I hope we can do a similar move with the top 9 forwards. We have Perron, Crosby, Malkin, Bennett, Hornqvist...we need four more. Maybe Kapanen and Sundqvist join the fray. We still need two more.

Yes and no. You can get away with trading 1st round picks somewhat regularly IF you keep most of your other picks AND you're successful at regularly drafting talent in the latter rounds. Detroit has been doing this for years. Much less lately, but they were very successful using this model. However, I've been saying for the last year or so that we really need to start drafting players today so that in 5 years they'll be impact players, as Crosby/Malkin age. If we want to continue having success as Crosby/Malkin age into their 30s, we will need to surround them with cheap young talent. And the only way we'll get that talent is by drafting it today.

But I agree with you regarding keeping our prospects. Which is why I'm not willing to toss Dumoulin away. Well that and I think a lot higher of him than most on here.

 

[Wolf Without a Howl]

seth rorabaugh @emptynetters · 36m 36 minutes ago
a few players are heading back to the dressing room after 20 minutes or so.
Tade??

Firing?

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Maybe they're just planning a bowling outing in St Louis

 

[Asuna]

I wonder who those players are.

 

[SEALBound]

If the pens do go out quietly in the playoffs i do think you have to at least consider trading Sid or Geno, you have changed everything around them and if its still not working i don't know how you can't at least consider it.

With the way the NHL is today, the lack of scoring in the league in right now, i would rather have 3 really good players then 1 superstar player.

See, here's the thing...no you don't. We are less than 1 year removed from Shero and Byslma and there's been nearly a 50% turnover of the roster via JR with a brand new rookie head coach. Are you kidding me? You will not replace what they are capable of bringing. You just will not. Unless they demand a trade, you keep them. That's a no brainer.

What about Kunitz for Glencross+Baertschi? Would anyone do that?

With the way the NHL is evolving, I think we need to evolve our roster.

Perron-Crosby-XXXX
Hornqvist-Malkin-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX-XXXX
XXXX-XXXX-XXXX

Letang-Maatta
Despres-XXXXX
XXXX-XXXX

That's basically the frame work of what you have.

I think Hornqvist needs to go with Sid. I think that combo can survive and thrive.

I think you then look to add one big time wing for Malkin. My ideal targets would be JVR, Lucic, Wheeler, or someone else with size and grit. Then on the other side, I think someone like Comeau would be just fine. I like what I've seen out of him thus far.

So lets make it this:

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist: Everything I've seen out of these players signals to me that they would succeed.

Lucic-Malkin-Comeau: A big mean guy, elite playmaker/sniper, workable 3rd wheel.

Now the bottom 6. This is where it gets tricky. Here's what I would do in my idea world:

Trade Dumoulin for Kassian. Trade Kunitz for picks or prospects and cap space. Send Harrington to Anaheim for Nick Ritchie. Trade a pick or two to Winnipeg for Brenden Lemieux. Send Sunqvist+other pick+prospect to Arizona for Hanzal. Resign Downie for hopefully $1.5mil or close to that. Include Spaling in any of the deals above or trade for picks to be used in the deal above.

Sign Petry and Boychuk.

Perron-Crosby-Hornqvist
Lucic-Malkin-Comeau
Downie-Hanzal-Kassian
Lemieux-4C-Ritchie

Letang-Maatta
Petry-Boychuk
Despres-Pouliot

Ahhhhhh....piece o' cake. Let's see that lineup get out hit and out muscled.

 

[systemsgo]

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

With Franson dealt and Methot and [to a lesser extent] Schultz re-signed, the pool of available talent is thin. This team HAS to maximize Ehrhoff and Martin.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Good. Lord.

Did you not just cancel practice the other day?

 

[Riptide]

Most of us have been saying to get what you can now for pending UFA's and sink or swim with the kids. The "WIN NOW" attitude is what ****ed us and put us in this spot to start with.

Trade Kunitz, Scuderi, Martin - because they will NOT be the difference in winning a Stanley Cup. Trade Sutter because I don't see him being here beyond next year anyway.

Take a step back before taking two forward. They'll never do it, but it needs to be done. I don't want any more ****ing Shero type rental deals. If DP is going to get traded, it better be for a LONG TERM solution at one of our many weak spots.

Well that and piss poor drafting. Nyqvist was picked 1 pick after we picked Moon (who?). Pulkkinen was drafted 1 pick after we drafted Kuhnhackl. Those 2 players alone would make a massive difference. But you add in poor drafting AND drafting more D than any other team in the league (by a noticeable margin) AND trading a lot of draft picks... and it's a receipt for disaster. Shero did redeem himself with the Staal trade (for bringing in assets), he then shot himself in the foot, by drafting Pouliot. Great prospect and should be a great player... but so far from what we needed (and yes I know FF was never a real option - but he should have been).

 

[wolffy66]

Relaxing? Pfft that's what the games are for.

 

[Le Magnifique 66]

Relaxing? Really? OK!!!

How about relaxing in the plane on the way to St Louis coach!!!